What's going on with the Hurricanes?

[ockron]

It is obvious that something is very wrong at the "Canes" ... Give me your thoughts.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

Err they aren't playing as well as they usually do?

 

[Dizzy]

Two words.....

Mark Hammett

 

[markshaw]

Yep Mark Hammett is a **** face. Arrogant as they come. Never liked him as a player let alone a coach. Nonus done alot more for the franchise then Hammett has or will ever do. Hope Ma'a comes up to the Blues. Hurricanes are ****ed. Cruden isnt THAT good. and Corey Jane and Smith are almost over it. Especially Smith. I hate it because the Canes have been a New Zealand favourite.

 

[Larksea]

tipping the cart over sideways is not the best way to remove a couple of bad apples.

 

[Dizzy]

very well said Larksea

 

[nickdnz]

Yep Mark Hammett is a **** face. Arrogant as they come. Never liked him as a player let alone a coach. Nonus done alot more for the franchise then Hammett has or will ever do. Hope Ma'a comes up to the Blues. Hurricanes are ****ed. Cruden isnt THAT good. and Corey Jane and Smith are almost over it. Especially Smith. I hate it because the Canes have been a New Zealand favourite.

Right...based on what?

 

[Hulk Hogan]

Cory Jane and Conrade Smith are still onfire, I'd love to have them at the Reds...

 

[smartcooky]

Two words.....

Mark Hammett

If the captain of a team I coached ever turned up to training dressed the way Andrew Hore does, i.e. wearing flip-flops and a crocheted frap hat, I would take him aside and give him a right-royal bollocking and make it clear to him that he does not show up like that again. The coach is the boss; it his way or the highway, so if he tells the players to jump, the only thing they ask is how high.

Any players who can't live with that should just **** off.

Hammett is trying to bring to the Canes some things that they have never had before... structure and discipline. He is trying to inject some of the culture that has brought the Crusaders so much success, and Lord knows they need it. For all the talented, All-Black-laden teams the Canes have been able to field over the years, what have they ever had to show for it in the Trophy Cabinet....? NOTHING!!!

The Hurricanes are the great underachievers of Super Rugby. History doesn't record how pretty your team was to watch or now entertaining they were; it simply records the number of ticks in the "W" column; in the Canes' case... big fat ZERO.

 

[nickdnz]

If the captain of a team I coached ever turned up to training dressed the way Andrew Hore does, i.e. wearing flip-flops and a crocheted frap hat, I would take him aside and give him a right-royal bollocking and make it clear to him that he does not show up like that again. The coach is the boss; it his way or the highway, so if he tells the players to jump, the only thing they ask is how high.

Any players who can't live with that should just **** off.

Hammett is trying to bring to the Canes some things that they have never had before... structure and discipline. He is trying to inject some of the culture that has brought the Crusaders so much success, and Lord knows they need it. For all the talented, All-Black-laden teams the Canes have been able to field over the years, what have they ever had to show for it in the Trophy Cabinet....? NOTHING!!!

The Hurricanes are the great underachievers of Super Rugby. History doesn't record how pretty your team was to watch or now entertaining they were; it simply records the number of ticks in the "W" column; in the Canes' case... big fat ZERO.

In fairness, only four teams in the competitions history have won it. The Hurricanes have still at least made 6 playoffs.

The issue is not that there needs to be a different culture in the Hurricanes because there does, but what people take issue with is not the molding of the Hurricanes into a better team, but the total destruction of the team to fit a Crusaders criteria. Coming in and telling All Blacks that they are not wanted in the team they've made over 100 appearences for, is not the start to building a team culture. It's pretty much the same as buying a company and laying off their employees.

 

[William18]

If the captain of a team I coached ever turned up to training dressed the way Andrew Hore does, i.e. wearing flip-flops and a crocheted frap hat, I would take him aside and give him a right-royal bollocking and make it clear to him that he does not show up like that again. The coach is the boss; it his way or the highway, so if he tells the players to jump, the only thing they ask is how high.

Any players who can't live with that should just **** off.

Hammett is trying to bring to the Canes some things that they have never had before... structure and discipline. He is trying to inject some of the culture that has brought the Crusaders so much success, and Lord knows they need it. For all the talented, All-Black-laden teams the Canes have been able to field over the years, what have they ever had to show for it in the Trophy Cabinet....? NOTHING!!!

The Hurricanes are the great underachievers of Super Rugby. History doesn't record how pretty your team was to watch or now entertaining they were; it simply records the number of ticks in the "W" column; in the Canes' case... big fat ZERO.

I disagree with you saying we are underachievers. Ever since 2003 we have probably been one of the most consistent teams in the competition. It's hardly like we have been choking or anything. We have never had the best squad because we have always lacked a first five and some key forwards. I, for one, can still celebrate a team's success even if they aren't winning the competition year and year out. I regard the past seven or so seasons as golden years for the Hurricanes.

That doesn't mean things don't need to change though in the future. I think Cooper instilled discipline in his earlier years but has become too friendly with the players as we have had a settled squad over the years. Standards have dropped and the team has started to come unstuck.

At the start of the year when Hammett was outlining his discipline procedures, Andrew Hore apparently told him ,in front of the whole team, that "we don't want that Canterbury **** around here." If he did say that I don't see how anyone could sympathize with Hore or express shock that his contact has not been renewed. And, yeah, Hore's dress is unprofessional and reflects a bad attitude. You expect better from your captain.

I still don't get what Nonu was meant to have done though.

In fairness, only four teams in the competitions history have won it. The Hurricanes have still at least made 6 playoffs.

The issue is not that there needs to be a different culture in the Hurricanes because there does, but what people take issue with is not the molding of the Hurricanes into a better team, but the total destruction of the team to fit a Crusaders criteria. Coming in and telling All Blacks that they are not wanted in the team they've made over 100 appearences for, is not the start to building a team culture. It's pretty much the same as buying a company and laying off their employees.

If you buy a company you should lay off employees if they are over paid, unproductive, stealing, misbehaving, turning up drunk, not doing their jobs or leading other employees astray.

 

[nickdnz]

I disagree with you saying we are underachievers. Ever since 2003 we have probably been one of the most consistent teams in the competition. It's hardly like we have been choking or anything. We have never had the best squad because we have always lacked a first five and some key forwards. I, for one, can still celebrate a team's success even if they aren't winning the competition year and year out. I regard the past seven or so seasons as golden years for the Hurricanes.

That doesn't mean things don't need to change though in the future. I think Cooper instilled discipline in his earlier years but has become too friendly with the players as we have had a settled squad over the years. Standards have dropped and the team has started to come unstuck.

At the start of the year when Hammett was outlining his discipline procedures, Andrew Hore apparently told him ,in front of the whole team, that "we don't want that Canterbury **** around here." If he did say that I don't see how anyone could sympathize with Hore or express shock that his contact has not been renewed. And, yeah, Hore's dress is unprofessional and reflects a bad attitude. You expect better from your captain.

I still don't get what Nonu was meant to have done though.



If you buy a company you should lay off employees if they are over paid, unproductive, stealing, misbehaving, turning up drunk, not doing their jobs or leading other employees astray.

I haven't heard any evidence that Hore turned up drunk, stole, lead other employees a stray etc. I didn't even know that was what he was accused to have done, as I thought it was Nonu who was accused of the attitude problem.

 

[ranger]

The whole rebuilding thing is such a poor decision. I can understand it as a concept, but before any team can rebuild they need the talent to replace the existing guys. Thats sort of the BUILDING part in rebuilding, without those guys its just destruction. That seems pretty obvious but it seems like something that Hammett & co have overlooked.
Who the hell do they think they are going to run out next season?

Coles for Hore
Eaton for Weepu
Kirkpatrick for Cruden
Hayward for Nonu
Savea for Gear
Buckman for Jane

Thats utterly horrible. If they had a guy like Nanai-Williams waiting in the wings, who is both ready to step up to the next level and has the talent to be great, then i could understand letting the guy infront of him go. Coles, Eaton, Kirkpatrick and to a lesser extent Buckman and Hayward don't have the talent. Savea, Barrett, Ngatai and TJ Parenara aren't ready. Bad decision.

 

[William18]

I haven't heard any evidence that Hore turned up drunk, stole, lead other employees a stray etc. I didn't even know that was what he was accused to have done, as I thought it was Nonu who was accused of the attitude problem.

I always thought that Hore was very professional too. I still don't really know what he did for sure - I have just heard rumours. If the rumours are true then I don't think Hammett really had an option.

 

[William18]

The whole rebuilding thing is such a poor decision. I can understand it as a concept, but before any team can rebuild they need the talent to replace the existing guys. Thats sort of the BUILDING part in rebuilding, without those guys its just destruction. That seems pretty obvious but it seems like something that Hammett & co have overlooked.
Who the hell do they think they are going to run out next season?

Coles for Hore
Eaton for Weepu
Kirkpatrick for Cruden
Hayward for Nonu
Savea for Gear
Buckman for Jane

Thats utterly horrible. If they had a guy like Nanai-Williams waiting in the wings, who is both ready to step up to the next level and has the talent to be great, then i could understand letting the guy infront of him go. Coles, Eaton, Kirkpatrick and to a lesser extent Buckman and Hayward don't have the talent. Savea, Barrett, Ngatai and TJ Parenara aren't ready. Bad decision.

Who said Weepu, Cruden, Gear and Jane are going apart from media talking to their typewriters? Some of them may leave but that might not be because of Hammett. Hammett clearly only wanted to get rid of Nonu and Hore and you can't blame him if others choose not to re-sign.

What do you think should happen if a player, especially your captain, is drinking too much, not supporting the coach and turns up to training dressed the way Hore does? Should the coach just turn a blind eye?

 

[ranger]

Who said Weepu, Cruden, Gear and Jane are going apart from media talking to their typewriters? Some of them may leave but that might not be because of Hammett. Hammett clearly only wanted to get rid of Nonu and Hore and you can't blame him if others choose not to re-sign.

What do you think should happen if a player, especially your captain, is drinking too much, not supporting the coach and turns up to training dressed the way Hore does? Should the coach just turn a blind eye?

For one, there is a bit of a link between your two bolded comments. In both Taranaki and Wellington, i have never seen Hore acting the way he has been portrayed. Who told you otherwise?

For another, if Hammett tells the captain and star player to **** off, and then other senior players walk with them, then that is most definitely his fault. It doesn't take naustradamus to figure out that may happen, losing addition players was a risk he should have accounted for before he started getting trigger happy.

I will say too, its not just typewriters i have heard whispering about some of these guys leaving. Ive heard multiple reliable sources indicate Cruden wants to go, when you look at it, why would he stay? Hes spent most of the year on the bench behind Dan ****ing Kirkpatrick, and taking pointers from a former hooker with no coaching experience. Rennie has been his mentor since he was a teenager..
Again, something that Hammett should have seen coming.

 

[Rhyer]

I will say too, its not just typewriters i have heard whispering about some of these guys leaving. Ive heard multiple reliable sources indicate Cruden wants to go, when you look at it, why would he stay? Hes spent most of the year on the bench behind Dan ****ing Kirkpatrick, and taking pointers from a former hooker with no coaching experience. Rennie has been his mentor since he was a teenager..
Again, something that Hammett should have seen coming.

I can understand Cruden wanting to go and he probably would have done that anyway regardless of what Hammett did as him and Rennie get along really well and the Chiefs need a new flyhalf. My understanding is that Hammett wants to get rid of the clique culture and the atmosphere that has plagued the Hurricanes for the last few seasons. My view on Cruden though is he does really well because he has Nonu outside of him. Cruden doesn't really lead an attack well he just probes and expects people to run off of him which isn't a great tactic in my opinion. He is very similar to Francois Trinh-Duc and he has been rather unsuccessful for France and people want him gone. Those sorts of players just can't introduce structure into the game to be very good at international level that the likes of Cooper and Carter can.

I don't know what everyone else is saying about no talent. Hurricanes have some exceptional talent waiting in the wings but they aren't household names like Nonu.

 

[Dizzy]

If the captain of a team I coached ever turned up to training dressed the way Andrew Hore does, i.e. wearing flip-flops and a crocheted frap hat, I would take him aside and give him a right-royal bollocking and make it clear to him that he does not show up like that again. The coach is the boss; it his way or the highway, so if he tells the players to jump, the only thing they ask is how high.

Any players who can't live with that should just **** off.

Hammett is trying to bring to the Canes some things that they have never had before... structure and discipline. He is trying to inject some of the culture that has brought the Crusaders so much success, and Lord knows they need it. For all the talented, All-Black-laden teams the Canes have been able to field over the years, what have they ever had to show for it in the Trophy Cabinet....? NOTHING!!!

The Hurricanes are the great underachievers of Super Rugby. History doesn't record how pretty your team was to watch or now entertaining they were; it simply records the number of ticks in the "W" column; in the Canes' case... big fat ZERO.

Well in an attempt to bring all the f****** hotheads right back down to planet earth.

IT'S F****** RUGBY!!!, it doesn't matter what you turn up to training in, as long as you brought your god damn boots. Surely none of you are expecting Andrew Hore to train in [and I quote] "flip flops and a crocheted frap hat" who gives a flying f*** what he turns up in as long as he has his boots, training shirt and shorts.

The Canes have had structure, the same structure that lead them to numerous semi finals and the well known foggy final against the Crusaders. So to say they have had no structure is completely opinionated. Who cares if they haven't had the same structure as the Crusaders, that's what makes them so damn different. If Hammett accomplishes his goal in destroying the Hurricanes culture then say goodbye to all the great entertaining backs we have seen over the years.

We as Hurricane fans love the way the Canes play, it's exciting and full of flair, the same style that has produced All Black greats over all these years because of the style of game they play. We don't want the boring structured style that win games by percentages. We want the entertaining, make-something-from-nothing, Christian-Cullen style gameplay.

As for the Canes being the great underachievers of the Super Rugby competition. Tell me how many teams have actually won the competition then we can settle your poor statement by listing all the other teams who have done worse than the Canes.

 

[ranger]

I can understand Cruden wanting to go and he probably would have done that anyway regardless of what Hammett did as him and Rennie get along really well and the Chiefs need a new flyhalf. My understanding is that Hammett wants to get rid of the clique culture and the atmosphere that has plagued the Hurricanes for the last few seasons. My view on Cruden though is he does really well because he has Nonu outside of him. Cruden doesn't really lead an attack well he just probes and expects people to run off of him which isn't a great tactic in my opinion. He is very similar to Francois Trinh-Duc and he has been rather unsuccessful for France and people want him gone. Those sorts of players just can't introduce structure into the game to be very good at international level that the likes of Cooper and Carter can.

I don't know what everyone else is saying about no talent. Hurricanes have some exceptional talent waiting in the wings but they aren't household names like Nonu.

Hey man, some good points there.

While i think that Cruden still would have weighed up his decision to leave under different circumstances, i think he would have stayed if he had:
a)Been receiving regular gametime
b)Been assured that he was being looked at as the future 1st 5 of the franchise
c)Had a quality midfield to run off him next season
and d)Had a quality halfback to run with (Eaton and Keats are beyond horrible)

None of those points were met this season or look to be met next season, so thats why he will probably go.

As for getting rid of the current culture, i can fully understand wanting to do that. But you can't just gut the team when you dont have the stock to replace them. The culture might have been undesirable but it wasn't an urgent situation! Its not like it was getting worse, he could have waited until the team was ready to change.
The savvy thing to do would have been to keep the guys on board, grin and bear it and try to work with what you have to keep the wins ticking over and keep the fans turning up (bear in mind, these guys went to the finals with this culture..) All the while slowly evaluating and recruiting talent from around the country, and then once he has all the right guys to replace the outgoing members, then he can start making cuts.

Your evaluation of Cruden is fairly accurate in that he does a good job of attacking the line, but i dont think thats a bad thing at all. He does a great job of setting Nonu up, but he plays so much better for Manawatu without any real talent in the midfield so its not like its just Nonu making him look good.
Cruden is capable of controling a game, but the real reason he has been hamstrung in my opinion is the **** poor guys playing at 9. Keats and Eaton give him some of the worst ball in the superrugby and he is rarely paired with Weepu. He gets backfootball from the weak canes pack (which is a givein in canes rugby) and then a shockingly slow wonky pass from his halfback, what else can he do but prod the line in that situation? He can't put structure on that kind of ball. I think at the Cheifs with a better pack, and a better halfback he will really come alive.

As for your last point, let me assure you its not just the "household names" that i'm familar with. Ive seen all they have to offer and i can tell you right now the appropriate talent just isnt there right now. feel free to enlighten me if you can.

 

[nickdnz]

Anyone else slighlty ****** to see all of the players (bar Nonu) get replaced during the game? Tialata was actually playing well for a change, Hore was taken off once again during crunch time and Schwalger was also taken off. Bit of a shame really, in your last match.

I think ranger described it well. Taking a look at the Hurricanes team for next season it'll look something like this:

1. Ben May
2. Dane Coles
3. Michael Bent
4. Jeremy Thrush
5. James Broadhurst
6. Faifili Levave
7. Jack Lam/Karl Loe
8. Victor Vito
9. Piri Weepu (Chris Eaton)
10. Aaron Cruden (Daniel Kirkpatrick/Beuden Barrett)
11. Hosea Gear (Julian Savea)
12. Charlie Ngatai
13. Conrad Smith
14. Julain Savea/Andre Taylor
15. Cory Jane (Andre Taylor)

16. Laurence Corlett
17. Jacob Ellison
18. Mark Reddish
19. Karl Loe/Jack Lam
20. Chris Eaton/TJ Perenara
21. Beuden Barrett/Daniel Kirkpatrick
22. Julian Savea/Andre Taylor/Jayden Hayward

Even providing the lined player do stay (and many have made it clear that they may leave after the RWC), that sqaud looks like it's the worst in the New Zealand conference by far. If they leave however, that's a very grim looking squad with only two All Blacks contracted past 2012. Weepu, Cruden, Jane and Gear could all well either be off overseas or to another franchise with Cory Jane certainly hinting he will likely head over seas. I can't see Conrad Smith staying past 2012 because he's getting older now and may want to cash in at Munster (where he has said he'd like to play after the All Blacks). I can't see the Hurricanes getting their flair back under Hammett and I can't see them ever being structured enough to be the next Crusders.