Wales V Argentina

[IT157]

Beard in the team. Wales by 10.

Beard out of the team = record defeat.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Argentina being 1/5 to beat Wales in Cardiff is absolutely bonkers when you think about it. Even under Pivac Wales would have still probably have been favourites in a game like this. The only slither of hope Wales have got here is that Argentina can at times be ordinary in the Autumn and they still have the odd game where they don't turn up.

What’s the odds on a Wales win?

 

[OllyM97]

What's the odds on a Wales win?

Wales are 7/2 to win.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Wales are 7/2 to win.

Easy money.

 

[dullonien]

I think my 23 would be:

01 Nicky Smith
02 Dewi Lake
03 Archie Griffin
04 Dafydd Jenkins
05 Rhys Davies (it'll be Beard though, and he has been playing well in France who generally demand physicality from their locks, so maybe he'll be improved)
06 Taine Plumtree
07 Jack Morgan
08 Aaron Wainwright

09 Tomos Williams
10 Dan Edwards
11 Blair Murray
12 Ben Thomas
13 Max Llewellyn
14 LRZ
15 Tom Rogers

16 Brodie Coghlan
17 Rhys Carre
18 Kieron Assiratti
19 James Fender
20 Alex Mann
21 Morgan Morse
22 Ruben Morgan-Williams
23 Jacob Beetham

I usually dislike a 6-2 bench, but this might be the right time to go for it. And with Beetham able to cover 10 through 15 (although Thomas would probably act as 10 cover realistically) then we could do so without potentially shooting ourselves in the foot unlike when Gats tried it. Beetham could be a really valuable player for us going forwards, so although he has plenty of work-ons I think he's worth testing this Autumn.

I wouldn't be against Hawkins at 12, but Thomas is in better form. It's been difficult to judge Hawkins in a poor Scarlets side, but he's not set the world alight since returning to Wales. I do like what he offers though.

There's a few options at 6. I personally like Plumtree, he's a good balance of athleticism, power, dog + he's a good lineout option. Wouldn't be against Mann starting, or Cracknell, or Morse even.

I'd prefer to see Murray on the wing, where he'll be less exposed earially than at fullback. Rogers is consistently strong earially, so it makes sense to me to have him at fullback.

 

[dirty harry]

@dirty harry what would your match day 23 be?

Im trying not to think about it tbh...

Our problem in our decline from leading NH light in 2019 and world no.1 to now is a lack of quality playing staff, specifically up front and ball carriers.

We have too many passengers in this squad, its difficult to make standards sky high with clubmen hanging around, Asserati, Coughlan, Mann, Southworth, Beetham, Evans, Hardy etc then theres the players whonare a shadow of their former selves, Adams, Falatau, Beard...

I personally would have gone with:

Smith
Lake
Griffin
Fender
Beard
Plumtree
Morgan
Wainright
RMW
Edwards
Hawkins
Llewellyn
Dyer
Rogers
LRZ

Carre
Belcher
Asserati
Jenkins
Morse
Tomos
Thomas
Murray

Our starting lineup gives us plenty of grunt, with some combos at club level, with the option of letting all hell break loose off the bench, Carre, Tomos, Morse and Jenkins upping the tempo, with Thomas and Murray brining the flair on front foot.

Risky i know, key issues being 10 if Edwards goes down (Hawkins to cover), dropping Jenkins and Tomos, and not having a regular FB, but the games ive seen Argentina struggle, they have really been hurt by momentum, theyve had periods of being on top, but in the cases of SA, England and NZ when the pressure camenon theybwilted at times.

I fully dont expect Tandys selection to be as risky (or stupid) as mine

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think my 23 would be:

01 Nicky Smith
02 Dewi Lake
03 Archie Griffin
04 Dafydd Jenkins
05 Rhys Davies (it'll be Beard though, and he has been playing well in France who generally demand physicality from their locks, so maybe he'll be improved)
06 Taine Plumtree
07 Jack Morgan
08 Aaron Wainwright

09 Tomos Williams
10 Dan Edwards
11 Blair Murray
12 Ben Thomas
13 Max Llewellyn
14 LRZ
15 Tom Rogers

16 Brodie Coghlan
17 Rhys Carre
18 Kieron Assiratti
19 James Fender
20 Alex Mann
21 Morgan Morse
22 Ruben Morgan-Williams
23 Jacob Beetham

I usually dislike a 6-2 bench, but this might be the right time to go for it. And with Beetham able to cover 10 through 15 (although Thomas would probably act as 10 cover realistically) then we could do so without potentially shooting ourselves in the foot unlike when Gats tried it. Beetham could be a really valuable player for us going forwards, so although he has plenty of work-ons I think he's worth testing this Autumn.

I wouldn't be against Hawkins at 12, but Thomas is in better form. It's been difficult to judge Hawkins in a poor Scarlets side, but he's not set the world alight since returning to Wales. I do like what he offers though.

There's a few options at 6. I personally like Plumtree, he's a good balance of athleticism, power, dog + he's a good lineout option. Wouldn't be against Mann starting, or Cracknell, or Morse even.

I'd prefer to see Murray on the wing, where he'll be less exposed earially than at fullback. Rogers is consistently strong earially, so it makes sense to me to have him at fullback.

Monepellier are 11th and have already lost 5 games this season.

I like your team but personally wouldn’t play Thomas but I’m happy enough for him to start to prove me wrong. I’d want to see a big performance from him though.

I think Wainwright has to start at 8 but if he moved him to 6 and started Morse Tandy would go up in my estimation. He’d go up even more if Beard doesn’t start. I’d extend his contract by 5 years if Beard wasn’t in the match day 23.

 

[dirty harry]

Monepellier are 11th and have already lost 5 games this season.

I like your team but personally wouldn't play Thomas but I'm happy enough for him to start to prove me wrong. I'd want to see a big performance from him though.

I think Wainwright has to start at 8 but if he moved him to 6 and started Morse Tandy would go up in my estimation. He'd go up even more if Beard doesn't start. I'd extend his contract by 5 years if Beard wasn't in the match day 23.

Id agree on Thomas, hes shown nothing to say hed be able to play int rugby, i would caveat this though last week he put in his best performance in a Cardiff shirt, and looked composed and mature. He wasnt like a headless chicken, he looked phyical ball in hand in the tight, more relaxed on defence, and only went wide and tried things when they were on.

I actually agree with Rogers at FB, Murray is a box of cats in broken play, but you dont get those chances at int rugby, for every sniff of a break hell have to field 7 challenged high balls.

Morse isnt ready, give him another season at club, make him come into the fold banging on the door.

And this is my key issue, of this squad which have had to really work, perform at club level and force thwir way in? Edwards and Carre are the only real names i can think of, maybe Plumtree and Llewellyn? Top teams have younger boys fighting to oust incumbents, we seem to be picking by default, because of lack of options

 

[Welsh Exile]

Price’s team is a just as bad as Jamie Roberts’ team

15 B Murray; 14 L Rees-Zammit, 13 M Llewellyn, 12 B Thomas, 11 J Adams; 10 D Edwards, 9 T Williams; 8 A Wainwright, 7 J Morgan (Captain), 6 T Plumtree, 5 A Beard, 4 D Jenkins, 3 K Assiratti, 2 D Lake, 1 N Smith

Reps: L Belcher, G Thomas , C Coleman, M Morse, F Thomas, R Morgan-Williams, C Sheedy, J Hawkins

 

[wombles]

There are certain factors that go in Wales favour this weekend. A new coaching team, new head coach, new philosophy and different squad selections tend to create a more positive environment in its initial phases. This will certainly pick up the Welsh players levels. Ally this to the fact there will not be as much for Argentina to analyse in how Wales are preparing to play, then these unknowns will level the playing field.

However Wales are not the team they were, and when you look at the squad there are not enough International quality players currently in or coming through that would raise expectations too highly. There is no sign of a golden generation such as Gatland inherited post the 2007 WC. I certainly believe Wales can be more competitive going forward (and a strong Wales is good for the game). But I think breaking into the top 6 in the world or into the top 3 of the 6 Nations or running deep into the WC are beyond them for quite some time at least when you look at the other teams.

This Sunday? on form Argentina are simply too strong (however how much form plays when the ball is kicked is up for debate). But they now have a backline that is right up there and compliments their forward grunt.

The hope of the Welsh nation and boost of the above should mean we see a much more competitive Wales team Sunday who should push and test the Pumas. But I wonder if around the hour mark Argentina's strength and quality will come to the fore.

It will be a fascinating test match!

 

[Welsh Exile]

TANDY OUT!

Possible Wales XV to face Argentina:Blair Murray; Tom Rogers, Max Llewellyn, Ben Thomas, Josh Adams; Dan Edwards, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Dewi Lake, Keiron Assiratti, Dafydd Jenkins, Adam Beard, Alex Mann, Jac Morgan, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Liam Belcher, Nicky Smith, Archie Griffin, Freddie Thomas, Taine Plumtree, Kieran Hardy, Callum Sheedy, Louis Rees-Zammit.

 

[dullonien]

TANDY OUT!

Possible Wales XV to face Argentina:Blair Murray; Tom Rogers, Max Llewellyn, Ben Thomas, Josh Adams; Dan Edwards, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Dewi Lake, Keiron Assiratti, Dafydd Jenkins, Adam Beard, Alex Mann, Jac Morgan, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Liam Belcher, Nicky Smith, Archie Griffin, Freddie Thomas, Taine Plumtree, Kieran Hardy, Callum Sheedy, Louis Rees-Zammit.

I'm happy enough with that side if it's correct. I've made my opinion of Beard clear before, but it seems like everyone else other that you and me Exile rates him, maybe we've happened to blink every time he makes a monster carry or tackle?

Adams offers some experience I suppose, but he's picked up a lot of ****les over the last few years, and has looked rather dull for a while. He was good in his last Welsh outing in Japan, before coming off injured...

I would also prefer a bit more grunt on the bench, with either Fender or Rhys Davies instead of the more hybrid Freddie Thomas. I also don't particularly rate Hardy, with RMW a better all round player.

But they're all relatively minor points. On the whole there's decent balance. There's some impact on the bench too with Smith, Plumtree, Sheedo and LRZ.

I'll be there on Sun, so hopefully I'll get to see a decent performance and maybe even a win!

 

[dirty harry]

I'm happy enough with that side if it's correct. I've made my opinion of Beard clear before, but it seems like everyone else other that you and me Exile rates him, maybe we've happened to blink every time he makes a monster carry or tackle?

Adams offers some experience I suppose, but he's picked up a lot of ****les over the last few years, and has looked rather dull for a while. He was good in his last Welsh outing in Japan, before coming off injured...

I would also prefer a bit more grunt on the bench, with either Fender or Rhys Davies instead of the more hybrid Freddie Thomas. I also don't particularly rate Hardy, with RMW a better all round player.

But they're all relatively minor points. On the whole there's decent balance. There's some impact on the bench too with Smith, Plumtree, Sheedo and LRZ.

I'll be there on Sun, so hopefully I'll get to see a decent performance and maybe even a win!

I probably disagree with some of this, but ultimately agree that they would be minor disagreements.

Your right about Adams, hes a shadow of his younger self, Beard has never set the world alight, however hes biiiggg and real strong, hes one of those necesities in the scrum and maul we miss. Like you id have prefered Fender over Thomas, but off the bench Thomas makes a bit more sense.

I dont think LRZ is 100%, but him at 90% off the bench in broken play could be devestating, especially the way Sheedy plays, just ask Bowen.

I sm surprised by Carre starting, and Mann, i just dont see what Mann offers, hes a lesser Plumtree with the same discipline issue.

 

[Welsh Exile]

There were rumours Cracknell would start. I think I’d honestly rather see him play than Mann.

Assaratti, Adams, Beard, Mann, Thomas and Edwards I just flat out disagree with which is a third of the team. I can let Edwards and Thomas slide but not the other 3.

 

[dirty harry]

There were rumours Cracknell would start. I think I'd honestly rather see him play than Mann.

Assaratti, Adams, Beard, Mann, Thomas and Edwards I just flat out disagree with which is a third of the team. I can let Edwards and Thomas slide but not the other 3.

I Get why your not a fan, but Griffin is fighting it out for 3rd 4th choice at his club, hes played about 4 times this season hasnt he, at least Assiratti is a regular starter.

Adams also, not the same guy, but solid tactically, and dependable under a high ball and positionally.

Beard Thomas and Edwards are just 50/50 calls.

Mann i agree with, everyone whos coached him loves him.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I Get why your not a fan, but Griffin is fighting it out for 3rd 4th choice at his club, hes played about 4 times this season hasnt he, at least Assiratti is a regular starter.

Adams also, not the same guy, but solid tactically, and dependable under a high ball and positionally.

Beard Thomas and Edwards are just 50/50 calls.

Mann i agree with, everyone whos coached him loves him.

He was captain for the under 20s wasn't he. I remember years ago Hayward or one of the other under 20 coaches was raving about him but the things they were raving about are the same things that standout now. Work rate and mentality.

Now, don't get me wrong, having a great engine and strong mentality is brilliant, a coaches dream, but he's not a good carrier, hes not a good ball player, isn't particularly great over the ball and while he can get through a good shift he doesn't excel in defence either. I think I said to you before but he could do with putting on a stone or 3 and I hate saying that about a player but he's not like a Basham who at least punches above his weight and has good ball skills.

Assarati is at best meh. I'd rather give any of the newer boys a go. Any of them. He woundnt make my 23.

Adams I'll let slide if LRZ is out but if he's fit no one can convince me Adams should start over him.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm happy enough with that side if it's correct. I've made my opinion of Beard clear before, but it seems like everyone else other that you and me Exile rates him, maybe we've happened to blink every time he makes a monster carry or tackle?

Adams offers some experience I suppose, but he's picked up a lot of ****les over the last few years, and has looked rather dull for a while. He was good in his last Welsh outing in Japan, before coming off injured...

I would also prefer a bit more grunt on the bench, with either Fender or Rhys Davies instead of the more hybrid Freddie Thomas. I also don't particularly rate Hardy, with RMW a better all round player.

But they're all relatively minor points. On the whole there's decent balance. There's some impact on the bench too with Smith, Plumtree, Sheedo and LRZ.

I'll be there on Sun, so hopefully I'll get to see a decent performance and maybe even a win!

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, the most important thing is how we play as a team and approach the game in general. I’m still excited about how we’ll look with Tandy and co.

This team came from WOL anyway so is probably BS

 

[Welsh Exile]

@Cruz_del_Sur what say you?

 

[dullonien]

He was captain for the under 20s wasn't he. I remember years ago Hayward or one of the other under 20 coaches was raving about him but the things they were raving about are the same things that standout now. Work rate and mentality.

Now, don't get me wrong, having a great engine and strong mentality is brilliant, a coaches dream, but he's not a good carrier, hes not a good ball player, isn't particularly great over the ball and while he can get through a good shift he doesn't excel in defence either. I think I said to you before but he could do with putting on a stone or 3 and I hate saying that about a player but he's not like a Basham who at least punches above his weight and has good ball skills.

Assarati is at best meh. I'd rather give any of the newer boys a go. Any of them. He woundnt make my 23.

Adams I'll let slide if LRZ is out but if he's fit no one can convince me Adams should start over him.

I personally rate Mann. He's a Lydiate or POM type player who gets through a mountain of work, chops people down low in defense giving an opportunity to disrupt the opposition or turn the ball over, he's an OK jackal threat himself, and he has a knack of getting on the scoresheet too.

I also think he'd benefit from a bit more size to be truly effective, but I may be wrong. He has been excellent for Cardiff this season so I don't mind seeing him there. I think there's decent balance in the back row as a whole, and with Mann taking on the dirty work it frees up Morgan and Wainwright to do what they're best at.

 

[dirty harry]

@Cruz_del_Sur what say you?

Hes too scared!!!