Wales coach Warren Gatland wants smaller Premiership

[TRF_Cymro]

Wales coach Warren Gatland has called for the Welsh Premiership to be cut to eight teams in the next three seasons.

His suggestion comes after former Wales fly-half Jonathan Davies claimed the 14-team league, which sits below the four regional sides, is "not working."

The Premiership was described as the "jewel in the crown" when it was re-launched seven years ago.

"You want that competition as strong as it possibly can be as good competitions breed good players," said Gatland.

"One of the solutions I thought about for the future was, at the moment there's 14 teams, let's add another on and north Wales [development team] so perhaps go to 16 teams.

"Leave it at that for a year or so, then do we reduce the Premiership in two or three years time? Give the teams enough time to adapt to the possibility of going to a top eight and a bottom eight."

The Welsh Rugby Union last announced changes in 2008 aimed at strengthening the Premiership and increasing links with the four regions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/9258363.stm​

What clubs stay and which goes is where the major debating point goes. I like what Gatland is suggesting, make it up to 16 teams and then tell sides within two years who ever is in the top 8 will be in a ITM style competition.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't understand why there isn't a prominent North Wales team?
I mean, Wrexham has more than twice as many people as Pontypridd
Is it because of the isolation/distance away from the other clubs?

 

[dullonien]

It's a tough one this, because the WRU run the risk of further alienating certain areas. I'd think the better option would be to keep the Premiership as is, or increase it to 16 as Gatland suggests, then introducing a propper Regional A competition that runs in tandem with the Magners League. Have A teams from as many of the Magner's teams as possible where the youngsters and injury returnees go to play. I think it would be much stronger if Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy are all involved in the level beneath regional rugby. Fewer Welsh teams means each one is of a higher standard. When the North Wales region increases in strength move them up from the Prem into this regional A structure as the final step before them entering the Magners.

One things for sure though, the Premiership isn't good enough as the stepping stone to Regional rugby and somethign needs to change. I'm sure Gatland's suggestions would work, but considering the uproar surrounding the setup of regional rugby, I think we'd have a similar outcry from anyone not in the top 8 when the cut was made.

I don't understand why there isn't a prominent North Wales team?
I mean, Wrexham has more than twice as many people as Pontypridd
Is it because of the isolation/distance away from the other clubs?

The distance certainly doesn't help. But the main problems stem from poor coaching at school age. When you consider that it's often ex-internationals who coaches rugby in many South Wales schools, then compare that with your run of the mill PE teacher in schools any more North than Llanelli, that's the problem. Without quality youngsters, local clubs are of a poor standard etc. Many of my cousins play for Dolgellau, and they get mullered by Aberystwyth, who in turn can't compete with teams from south Wales, especially at school level.

Football af course dominates when you go even further up into Wrexam etc. But people are still rugby mad all the way up to Dolgellau and a little further.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I don't understand why there isn't a prominent North Wales team?
I mean, Wrexham has more than twice as many people as Pontypridd
Is it because of the isolation/distance away from the other clubs?

Yes location is massive, if you think about it, all the clubs in the Premiership are all semi-pro which means most will have other jobs to live on. When you got to travel to North Wales it takes a day away from work, taking into account that some have to take time off for training, most clubs train more than twice a week does take its toll. Which leads to the travelling point where almost an entire day is spent travelling and playing a game, not many clubs want to do this. There is also the mentality that North Wales rugby is not as good as South Wales and to play North Wales would be a waste of time.

It's a tough one this, because the WRU run the risk of further alienating certain areas. I'd think the better option would be to keep the Premiership as is, or increase it to 16 as Gatland suggests, then introducing a propper Regional A competition that runs in tandem with the Magners League. Have A teams from as many of the Magner's teams as possible where the youngsters and injury returnees go to play. I think it would be much stronger if Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy are all involved in the level beneath regional rugby. Fewer Welsh teams means each one is of a higher standard. When the North Wales region increases in strength move them up from the Prem into this regional A structure as the final step before them entering the Magners.

One things for sure though, the Premiership isn't good enough as the stepping stone to Regional rugby and somethign needs to change. I'm sure Gatland's suggestions would work, but considering the uproar surrounding the setup of regional rugby, I think we'd have a similar outcry from anyone not in the top 8 when the cut was made.

Personally I dont think there is enough resources to create 'A' sides. If there was Galtand has said this would be the option to take. Currently there is not enough quality players in the pool. Personally something along the lines of how the ITM works is something that Wales should look at. However what clubs stay and go is going to be tough. On Scrum V they mentioned that each Region would nominate two, well that would not work and a lot of uproar would occur and a FIFA style scam would happen. Take the Ospreys for example, they would back Neath and Swansea ... where would that leave Aberavon? Scarlets would take Llanelli but a tough decision between Llandovery and Carmarthen Quins would have to be made. Which in truth could lead to a club just folding as there is no way for a club to progress.

With an ITM style league there would be a chance of progression and if they decide to do this then they must say in two years time the league will spilt and depending on where you are is what league you end up in. Personally this is the way to go. Of course the clubs will be disappointed but then at least they get a chance to prepare themselves for a chance to fight to win a place in the top 8.

 

[dullonien]

You're probably right about there being a lack of recources to create 'A' sides. I think there's enough quality players available in Wales and Ireland, wheather or not that's true in Scotland and Italy I'm not sure. But money would be the falling point, again especially in Scotland and Italy. The current size of the Regional squads are close to big enough to support 'A' teams already, especially the O's with 50 odd players on their books.

I'm glad that changes are being considered though, as 14-16 teams is simply unsustainable at this level in Wales. Just looking at some of the players in the league showes the lack of strength. The likes of Ashley Beck are barely learning anything when they're cruising most games. Reducing the number will hopefully mean fewer over the hill players aswell. In what way was Arwel Thomas playing in the Premiership up untill a couple of seasons ago helping? If he wants to pass on his experties, then coaching is the way to do it, not taking a spot that could go to a talented youngster.

 

[TrueSlawter]

I don't understand why there isn't a prominent North Wales team?
I mean, Wrexham has more than twice as many people as Pontypridd
Is it because of the isolation/distance away from the other clubs?

There kind of is.. RGC1404.. but the issue up here is coaching, for example the team i play for now has won the league twice in a row, won the north wales cup three times in a row (iirc) this is just at youth level mind you, most move up to Senior where Rhyl play in L2 North where there is L1 North but I dont think there is a way to the prem from there.

North wales currently falls under Scarlets region yet no-one up here has made it into the team apart from george north (that ive heard of) but north went to llandovery which is alot closer. Travelling for training for a region isnt possible really ~4 hour journey down 4 hours back for training would mean missing lots of school or college. As for competition the good teams up here in L2 N are mainly Rhyl, Dolgellau and Wrexham (main ones) the competition between them is average compared to south just down to coaching and all the good players going down south as thats where the coaches are.. L1 N has the same issue there is a difference between teams played some will be close games others can be easy runaway games. Im using youth as a example again but still in the welsh cup last year Rhyl got into the quaters iirc. playing against Glamorgan and they got beaten.. its not teams cant compete its just down south they play at alot higher level week in week out.. Oh also we're going down to Croesyceliog (sp) on the 18th and people here are going on about how good they are which of course doesnt help either, as cymro mentioned there seems to be a metality that SW teams are alot better, which there is a gap i'll admit but it isn't as big as they think. I've played and watched rugby in both SW and now NW and as said only real difference is the teams they play against week in week out are closer to them, eg no 50 point hammerings at youth every other week... for example Bala have lost to 3 teams iirc so far out of ~6 league games by over 50 points of which at youth the game gets called off..

As for overall topic imo it should add RGC1404 and possibly 1 more NW team then cut down to 2 tiers of 16 and when RGC hopefully move on to be a region for north wales another team added from NW to the system to replace them, this would give feeder teams for RGC as a region and promote the game up here more as lets face it League 2 matches are small average attendance was around 100 for the last game and some days 1st XV, 2nd XV and Youth are playing at the same time which still generates a low attendance.

Note - sorry for all youth examples, its just being 17 I haven't played senior rugby.

 

[dullonien]

Youth is the best place to judge the strength on though. And I know from experience that South Wales at youth level are country miles ahead of Mid Wales, which in turn are a little better than North Wales. I used to play for Penweddig, not a great rugby school really, but the best in the local area (i.e. better than Penglais, Tregaron, Machynlleth, and Aberaeron, although Mach and Aberaeron were not atall far behind). The majority of times we played sides from up north (Dolgellau etc.) we'd win, closihs game mind. However every time we came up against a school from South Wales, we'd get smashed by 30+ points. They always seemed to be bigger and much more skillful. Sure a few players would compete, but the rest of us tended to be waaay off the pace.

The coach in Penweddig was a great man and extremely dedicated, but it was just him. He took on the entire youth coaching roles for youth systems in Aberystwyth (excluding Penglais). He coached Penweddig at all age grades, and the Aberystwyth town youth teams at all age greades. I'm not sure if he's still doing so, but it was too much work for one man. Whilst he was a top bloke, he had never played at a high level, and probably lacked the ability and the links to get the best out of some of the good players available.

Some of the problems stem all the way back to primary school imo. Due to the larger towns, villiages and cities in South Wales, primary schools are larger and have better facilities for sports. Mid and North Wales however still rely largely on lots and lots of very small primary schools where PE is an add on part, taught by unqualified teachers. My primary school barely had 30 pupils, and we weren't allowed to play rugby incase someone got hurt! Moving to secondary school and seeing how good the children from the larger town primary schools were (Ysgol Gymraeg especially), really put me at a dissadvantage, I was rubbish in comparison and never caught up!

I know things are slowly chaging, with many smaller primary schools closing and bigger ones being built in their place serving a larger area. We could see an increase in ability sports wise from schools such as these if decent sports teachers are implemented, increasing the number that are of a higher ability entering secondary schools. As long as these are then handed opportunities at larger clubs then hopefully we'll see more players who originate from Mid and North Wales.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Yeah I've played the likes of Welshpool, flint, wrexham, llangefni from north wales, they aren't bad but the 50 points some teams put on each other shouldnt happen often. Welshpool weren't that bad either, from south I've played teams like Llandaff, Cowbridge, Barry a few more from cardiff and surrounding areas. Growing up in south wales though I've had quite a bit of experiance playing the game but I stopped playing for a period so im playing catch up now, kind of regret it if im honest.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Youth is the best place to judge the strength on though. And I know from experience that South Wales at youth level are country miles ahead of Mid Wales, which in turn are a little better than North Wales. I used to play for Penweddig, not a great rugby school really, but the best in the local area (i.e. better than Penglais, Tregaron, Machynlleth, and Aberaeron, although Mach and Aberaeron were not atall far behind). The majority of times we played sides from up north (Dolgellau etc.) we'd win, closihs game mind. However every time we came up against a school from South Wales, we'd get smashed by 30+ points. They always seemed to be bigger and much more skillful. Sure a few players would compete, but the rest of us tended to be waaay off the pace.

The coach in Penweddig was a great man and extremely dedicated, but it was just him. He took on the entire youth coaching roles for youth systems in Aberystwyth (excluding Penglais). He coached Penweddig at all age grades, and the Aberystwyth town youth teams at all age greades. I'm not sure if he's still doing so, but it was too much work for one man. Whilst he was a top bloke, he had never played at a high level, and probably lacked the ability and the links to get the best out of some of the good players available.

Some of the problems stem all the way back to primary school imo. Due to the larger towns, villiages and cities in South Wales, primary schools are larger and have better facilities for sports. Mid and North Wales however still rely largely on lots and lots of very small primary schools where PE is an add on part, taught by unqualified teachers. My primary school barely had 30 pupils, and we weren't allowed to play rugby incase someone got hurt! Moving to secondary school and seeing how good the children from the larger town primary schools were (Ysgol Gymraeg especially), really put me at a dissadvantage, I was rubbish in comparison and never caught up!

I know things are slowly chaging, with many smaller primary schools closing and bigger ones being built in their place serving a larger area. We could see an increase in ability sports wise from schools such as these if decent sports teachers are implemented, increasing the number that are of a higher ability entering secondary schools. As long as these are then handed opportunities at larger clubs then hopefully we'll see more players who originate from Mid and North Wales.

Ha :lol: Not the case really anymore with the school's. It now turns each year, with one year Penglais being far stronger and the next Penweddig.

Dull what you talk about is some 10+ years ago, while the system has now changed. That very school coached stepped down from coaching Aber Youth and is now coaching Tregaron RFC. Got to admit that Aberystwyth RFC is leaps above most / all clubs in the Ceredigion area. The first team boast a side that all but one or two has come through the youth system at the club and the youth that is coming through are really promising. Some are being selected for representative rugby as high as Wales. The quality of coaching at the club has increased significantly with coaches now going up the WRU coaching ladders, can genuinely say that the club is reaping the rewards for the seeds its sowed because its taking the time to look after the children and develop them.

Going back to the schools, now kids in schools are all encouraged to go down to the club to train. The problem with small primary schools they are never going to have school sides which is a crying shame. But as you said Dull these biggers schools that are being built only brings the talent pool together to allow them to play rugby. School rugby at primary school level is a shambles in Wales with little or no good coaching available and the attitude if they want to play rugby they will go down to the local rugby club apparently suffice. The same can be said at times for Secondary Schools. Some schools are lucky that the teachers who coach have the badges / coaching ability that is needed. But again the coaching is not great and the attitude is similar to what can be found in primary schools.

The real problem lies with representative rugby. Clubs in Mid and North Wales are often overlooked. RGC is great for now spotting the talent in North Wales but for Mid Wales there is sometimes miss representation of players. In Ceredigion alone there are some really good players who never got looked for representative rugby. Purely for the clic that are involved in representative rugby with the coaches favouring players from their own area rather than making the effort to look at good players in other areas in Wales.

The duty lies with the regions and the WRU to sort this out and ensure they look into grass roots rugby but also look to how they can expose more players to a better standard of rugby.

 

[TrueSlawter]

RGC I think is inteding to become the region for mid and north wales, Mid east wales is covered by Blues North but mid west is scarlets like north. I just hope soon RGC can grow strong enough for magners to bring through some of the guys playing up here into regional rugby and possibly nation side as there is definatly the talent.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

What the danger is, is that the WRU will forget the RGC and just believe that if they want to play rugby up in North Wales then they can co and play League for the Crusaders.

 

[TrueSlawter]

That is a issue, hopefully its one the WRU is aware of and works towards making sure it doesnt happen and that having a region in north wales can secure talent that could be otherwise lost to football or league.. oh and around 2 of the guys in the team I play for (rhyl youth as mentioned before) play for RGC under 18's but one who is our fly half or inside centre, can play both and is good gets stuck on the wing or outside centre at RGC which doesnt help him at all. And the ones that do play for RGC also play league or 7s with the Welsh Exiles..

 

[dullonien]

Ha :lol: Not the case really anymore with the school's. It now turns each year, with one year Penglais being far stronger and the next Penweddig.

Dull what you talk about is some 10+ years ago, while the system has now changed. That very school coached stepped down from coaching Aber Youth and is now coaching Tregaron RFC. Got to admit that Aberystwyth RFC is leaps above most / all clubs in the Ceredigion area. The first team boast a side that all but one or two has come through the youth system at the club and the youth that is coming through are really promising. Some are being selected for representative rugby as high as Wales. The quality of coaching at the club has increased significantly with coaches now going up the WRU coaching ladders, can genuinely say that the club is reaping the rewards for the seeds its sowed because its taking the time to look after the children and develop them.

Going back to the schools, now kids in schools are all encouraged to go down to the club to train. The problem with small primary schools they are never going to have school sides which is a crying shame. But as you said Dull these biggers schools that are being built only brings the talent pool together to allow them to play rugby. School rugby at primary school level is a shambles in Wales with little or no good coaching available and the attitude if they want to play rugby they will go down to the local rugby club apparently suffice. The same can be said at times for Secondary Schools. Some schools are lucky that the teachers who coach have the badges / coaching ability that is needed. But again the coaching is not great and the attitude is similar to what can be found in primary schools.

The real problem lies with representative rugby. Clubs in Mid and North Wales are often overlooked. RGC is great for now spotting the talent in North Wales but for Mid Wales there is sometimes miss representation of players. In Ceredigion alone there are some really good players who never got looked for representative rugby. Purely for the clic that are involved in representative rugby with the coaches favouring players from their own area rather than making the effort to look at good players in other areas in Wales.

The duty lies with the regions and the WRU to sort this out and ensure they look into grass roots rugby but also look to how they can expose more players to a better standard of rugby.

Yeh, I'm a little out of touch I know

Glad to hear that the standard of coaching has improved at least as far as the Aberystwyth town system goes. From what I've heard Penglais has improved massively as a school, with a much bigger emphasis on teaching in Welsh than it was 10 years ago. Penweddig has also been nosediving badly, with much more pupils from Ysgol Gymraeg etc. choosing to go to Penglais for the better education available. This has probably both improved rugby in Penglais and decreased Penweddig's strength in that area. It does hopefully mean that there's more competition though, which is allways good.

There never used to be much opportunity for talented youngsters to get involved in rugby at a higher level than playing for Aberystwyth, with it prooving hard for them to get opportunities with Llanelli etc. I knew a few pupils who's parents moved them to Llandovery in order that they got those opportunities. There never used to be any scouts at school level games when I was at school, even though a few players were showing enough potential to be worth a shot. I think one player that stands out for me who currently plays for Aberystwyth, Paul Stubbs, should have been picked up at a younger age. He started playing rugby rather late in secondary from what I remember, but was instantly very good and proceded to tear up most teams he came up against. He's a decent enough player now, but I think with better coaching, more dicipline and a chance to progress, he could have been a very, very good player.

I think the success of Aberystwyth 1sts will certainly help the town. There is now a good club at a highish level within reach, without having to play for Llandovery/Camarthen/Llanelli. Good players will get noticed playing for Aberystwyth and continue progressing. I think we'll see quite a few players playing professionally hailing from the area in the future, with Lee Williams the first of many.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Dullonien thats what i kind of hate about scarlets being west mid and north wales regions.. As I said on the last page only guy I know of to come from North wales teasm into regional / wales recently was george north and to get tehre he moved to llandovery rather than be scouted from up north etc

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Cai Griffiths is from Bangor, but he's hardly anything to write home about!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Yeh, I'm a little out of touch I know

Glad to hear that the standard of coaching has improved at least as far as the Aberystwyth town system goes. From what I've heard Penglais has improved massively as a school, with a much bigger emphasis on teaching in Welsh than it was 10 years ago. Penweddig has also been nosediving badly, with much more pupils from Ysgol Gymraeg etc. choosing to go to Penglais for the better education available. This has probably both improved rugby in Penglais and decreased Penweddig's strength in that area. It does hopefully mean that there's more competition though, which is allways good.

There never used to be much opportunity for talented youngsters to get involved in rugby at a higher level than playing for Aberystwyth, with it prooving hard for them to get opportunities with Llanelli etc. I knew a few pupils who's parents moved them to Llandovery in order that they got those opportunities. There never used to be any scouts at school level games when I was at school, even though a few players were showing enough potential to be worth a shot. I think one player that stands out for me who currently plays for Aberystwyth, Paul Stubbs, should have been picked up at a younger age. He started playing rugby rather late in secondary from what I remember, but was instantly very good and proceded to tear up most teams he came up against. He's a decent enough player now, but I think with better coaching, more dicipline and a chance to progress, he could have been a very, very good player.

I think the success of Aberystwyth 1sts will certainly help the town. There is now a good club at a highish level within reach, without having to play for Llandovery/Camarthen/Llanelli. Good players will get noticed playing for Aberystwyth and continue progressing. I think we'll see quite a few players playing professionally hailing from the area in the future, with Lee Williams the first of many.

Lee Williams was born in Pontyberem :lol: im sure you mean Luke Williams

Stubbs is a good player, played for Llanelli U25's in the last two seasons. Aber also have Arwel Lloyd and RGC member and Prys Lewis arguably the best prop in Division 2 and had a stint at Llandovery.

But going back to the subject, really unless something is done any good player from North Wales will be missed out upon. The likes of North and McBryde had to move to get noticed. Transport is a major issue and until the roads are improved I fear that this will also be a deciding factor.

 

[dullonien]

Lee Williams was born in Pontyberem :lol: im sure you mean Luke Williams

Stubbs is a good player, played for Llanelli U25's in the last two seasons. Aber also have Arwel Lloyd and RGC member and Prys Lewis arguably the best prop in Division 2 and had a stint at Llandovery.

But going back to the subject, really unless something is done any good player from North Wales will be missed out upon. The likes of North and McBryde had to move to get noticed. Transport is a major issue and until the roads are improved I fear that this will also be a deciding factor.

Ah balls, is it Luke Williams who has played for the Scarlets and was involved with 7's for Wales? Can't remember his name, just know there was one former Penweddig pupil who was.....

Yeh, Prys was in my year in school, always was good, a prime example of someone who should have gotten scouted at an early age. Problem with the likes of Stubbs is that although he's finally been picked up by Llanelli, it's much to late for him to have a chance at making it as a pro really. If he was involved with Llanelli from the age of 16 or 18, then he might have gotten much further. Not saying he'd be playing for Wales or anything, but he could have been playing Premiership rugby before now, and then who knows really. Although after thinking about it, he may have gotten into rugby quite late at school. He was a bit of a trouble maker in his early ears at Penweddig (year below) and only started playing in year 10 or 11. Really helped sort him out aswell, although he still get's into a little trouble now and again...

Basically what I'm trying to point out is that although alot is made about North Wales missing out, the situation isn't much better in Mid Wales. For a country of our size, how can we ignore such a large proportion of it? RGC is a good start, and I'm sure they'll be much more proactive in both North and Mid Wales than Llanelli and the Scarlets ever have, because they'll need to take full advantage of both to become successful. I think we'll see much more players from Ceredigion heading up North to RGC when they've fully settled down than we'll see joining Llanelli.

Unfortunately Aberystwyth is a despirately cut off place to live. Roads in all directions are poor, and whilst the roads between Carmarthen and Lampeter have been improved, the roads from Lampeter to Aber are poor without going the long way round. Same thing heading North, I mean how is it acceptable that the main road from North to South Wales bottlenecks at the Dyfi so that it's not even propperly two lanes! Most B roads in other areas and especially in England are better! Do you know if they've started work on that stretch of road yet Cymro? Last time I was home, they'd cut the trees and there was word that they were gonna start on widening the road, but it seemed to come to a halt. The less that's said about the bridge in Machynlleth (which has been crashed into again over summer) and the road from there to Corris the better lol.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Come to a halt im afraid!

Luke's not involved with Wales 7s, hes just turn 18 and plays with Tom Prydie in the Wales U18 and is contracted to the Carmarthen Quins and Scarlets Academy. Lee Williams has played for Wales 7s.

 

[dullonien]

Right I'm totally confused now. I'm sure there was a player from Penweddig who was involved with 7's. Pretty sure he had a few games on the wing for the Scarlets at the beggining of last season or the season before. Thought it was something Williams, but he was older than this Luke you've mentioned. Maybe I've gotten totally confused, although my dad and a bunch of friends have mentioned him in the past aswell. Hmm.

Ahah, Ifan Evans, that's who I was thinking of.

 

[cyRil]

I thought talking about random and inconsequential second-rate rugby players to an extreme degree is just what the Irish posters on the forum did?!!!!