TRF World XV 2014 [Poll on first post]

[Mikel92]

omg no, a needlessly meticulous pedantic forum battle !

About Folau and Ben Smith, to summarize, I'd just say Ben Smith is the "better Rugby player" while Folau's the much better athlete. And in this instance, I'll pick the better athlete as my fullback.

YES!
I was about ready to open up a can of whoop ass Ewis, nice save at the end.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

omg no, a needlessly meticulous pedantic forum battle !

About Folau and Ben Smith, to summarize, I'd just say Ben Smith is the "better Rugby player" while Folau's the much better athlete. And in this instance, I'll pick the better athlete as my fullback.

That's about it if a little simplified (but a good simplification in this case IMO). Some will favor the rugby player, some will favor the athlete. Myself, I'm in the Smith camp as I feel if you aren't winning he's more likely to get you home. But then again that is again just opinion.

 

[Mikel92]

Someone has to be pedantic to show the error of Darwin's ways.
I'm not sure if I accept Smith is a better rugby player, but definitely the athletisism is with Folau.

 

[Darwin]

I've shown areas where, including towards the end of the season, he has been better with ball in hand than Smith. Actually, if anything, Smith kept the gap more narrow during the RC by making all of those awesome tackles. The difference in tackles wasn't so phenomenal towards the end of the year. Offloads and defenders beaten are still two different stats which are weighted in Folau's favour. Smith kicks far more Folau, and in reality I'm sure he is more effective at it. Although how many of those kicks are absolute magic that gets the ABs deep into the 22 like Dagg does I'm not sure - how do I know they aren't just up and unders? My point here is there are other areas I've pointed to outside of meters gained.

In that case Smith's better passing that is being touted would be void then? Surely that is in the distribution category with offloads? Folau is generally pretty comfortably in front in that stat. There were a few areas that were noted that Smith does better. Passing was one of them. Fine. But the offloads go Folau's way. So distribution is even.

Is Super Rugby relevant though? How many players could I list right now that are fantastic at Super rugby level do you reckon? Pretty sure Buckman is handy. Wouldn't put him in a black jumper though. When I've compared stats today I've done so through their international appearances. I'm a bit puzzled why you're bringing Super rugby into it.

I disagree, yes, that comparing two player's running meters throughout various tours and different parts of the years is helpful. I think it is. You could analyse it further and think, how many meters were gained relative to their carries. But like I said, I don't really get why you're explaining that Folau made 7 more meters because he had X amount of carries over Smith. There are plenty of players who get the ball in hand and technically go on a run but don't make meters. There is just no comparison between the two of them in terms of their individual performances internationally this year. Folau has created more opportunities for his fellow players, and considering he's not even a winger has beaten a tremendous amount of defenders and gained inroads for his pretty inept team. Now imagine him doing that for a World XV. Or even .. imagine him getting a chance to do that for a pack like the ABs, as Smith gets to do each week.



And for me it'd have to be Folau all day long (even if I'm alone there!). Kearney would be up there. Brown would usually be up there, but he's buttoned off a little bit during the AI. And honestly, I haven't seen enough of Le Roux to judge.

I give up. If you are incapable of following basic logic I'm not going to waste my time.

 

[Mikel92]

I've pointed out where I think you're wrong and what you are omitting. I've made a few mistakes during the argument and I admitted those. I'm just sorry you couldn't do the same.

You are a fool. I can't make you see something that you don't want to see for yourself.

 

[Big Ewis]

YES!
I was about ready to open up a can of whoop ass Ewis, nice save at the end.

not that scared, you only had so much to quote, reply, quote, reply, quote, reply to ! I can handle a two-part reply post

 

[Beau Geste]

Someone has to be pedantic to show the error of Darwin's ways.
I'm not sure if I accept Smith is a better rugby player, but definitely the athletisism is with Folau.

Tend to disagree. In a foot race, Smith would definitely win. For me, Izzy doesn't have blinding speed. If we're talking of skillsets, Folau strikes me as having a greater range, especially his offloads. I don't think Folau had a great Autumn. He's been imperious under the bomb in the past, but he made some uncharacteristic mistakes. However, I would still take Folau because that X factor that few have.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Right guys, as Draggs mention i'll will make google docs for each position to make sure we have one team which is the TRF's World XV for 2014 so 10 players from each position and i have an idea in each position, somehow but if you want to make a change i'll will make the changes but lets see what think off these nominees for each position.

Note* when i make the second row position i think i'll make 20 options and it that you can select 2 pairs and the top 2 will be 5 & 4 in the team.

15. (Fullback) Rob Kearney (IRE), Ben Smith (NZL), Willie Le Roux (RSA), Mike Brown (ENG), Stuart Hogg (SCO), Leigh Halfpenny (WAL), Scott Speeding (FRA), Israel Folau (AUS), Israel Dagg (NZL), Joaquín Tuculet (ARG)

14. (Right Winger) Ben Smith (NZL), Adam Ashley-Cooper (AUS), Alex Cuthbert (WAL), Yoann Huget (FRA), Tommy Bowe (IRE), Cornal Hendricks (RSA), Anthony Watson (ENG), Charles Piutau (NZL), Henry Speight (AUS), JP Pietersen (RSA)

13. (Outside Centre) Alex Dunbar (SCO), Jan Serfontein (RSA), Brad Barritt (ENG), Tevita Kuridrani (AUS), Conrad Smith (NZL), Michele Campagnaro (ITA), Malakai Fekitoa (NZL), Jonathan Davies (WAL), Marcelo Bosch (ARG), Robbie Henshaw (IRE)

12. (Inside Centre) Kyle Eastmond (ENG), Jean de Villiers (RSA), Jamie Roberts (WAL), Gordon D'Arcy (IRE), Sonny Bill Williams (NZL), Juan Martín Hernández (ARG), Wesley Fofana (FRA), Owen Farrell (ENG), Christian Lealiifano (AUS), Ryan Crotty (NZL)

11. (Left Winger) Jonny May (ENG), Julian Savea (NZL), Liam Williams (WAL), Teddy Thomas (FRA), Bryan Habana (RSA), Tommy Seymour (SCO), Manuel Montero (ARG), Nemani Nadolo (FIJ) George North (WAL), Simon Zebo (IRL)

10. (Fly-Half) Handré Pollard (RSA), Bernard Foley (AUS), Jonathan Sexton (IRE), George Ford (ENG), Owen Farrell (ENG), Pat Lambie (RSA), Dan Carter (NZL), Aaron Cruden (NZL), Quade Cooper (AUS), Nicolás Sánchez (ARG)

9. (Scrum-Half) Greig Laidlaw (SCO), Conor Murray (IRE), Francois Hougaard (RSA), Nick Phipps (AUS), Will Genia (AUS), Rhys Webb (WAL), Aaron Smith (NZL), Martín Landajo (ARG), Rory Kockott (FRA), Danny Care (ENG)

8. (Number-8) Billy Vunipola (ENG), Kieran Read (NZL), Sergio Parisse (ITA), Taulupe Faletau (WAL), Ben McCalman (AUS), Duane Vermeulen (RSA), Jamie Heaslip (IRE), Ben Morgan (ENG), Louis Picamoles (FRA), Steffon Armitage (ENG)

7. (Openside Flanker) Sam Warburton (WAL), Richie McCaw (NZL), Chris Robshaw (ENG), Michael Hooper (AUS), Oupa Mohojé (RSA), Blair Cowan (SCO), Javier Ortega Desio (ARG), Bernard Le Roux (FRA), Rhys Ruddock (IRE), Sam Cane (NZL)

6. (Blindside Flanker) Tom Wood (ENG), Marcell Coetzee (RSA), Peter O'Mahony (IRE), Dan Lydiate (WAL), Thierry Dusautoir (FRA), Sean McMahon (AUS), Jerome Kaino (NZL), Liam Messam (NZL), James Haskell (ENG), Scott Fardy (AUS)

5. (Second Row) Rob Simmons (AUS), Sam Whitelock (NZL), Courtney Lawes (ENG), Alun Wyn Jones (WAL), Yoann Maestri (FRA), Paul O'Connell (IRE), Victor Matfield (RSA), Jonny Gray (SCO), Tomás Lavanini (ARG), Luke Charteris (WAL)

4. (Second Row) Sam Carter (AUS), Brodie Retallick (NZL), Jeremy Thrush (NZL), Dave Attwood (ENG), Jake Ball (WAL), Pascal Papé (FRA), Eben Etzebeth (RSA), Devin Toner (IRE), Richie Gray (SCO), Bakkies Botha (RSA)

3. (Tighthead Prop) David Wilson (ENG), Owen Franks (NZL), Samson Lee (WAL), Sekope Kepu (AUS), Nicolas Mas (FRA), Mike Ross (IRE), Martin Castrogiovanni (ITA), Coenie Oosthuizen (RSA), Rodney Ah You (IRE), Ben Alexander (AUS)

2. (Hooker) Dylan Hartley (ENG), Adriaan Strauss (RSA), Bismarck du Plessis (RSA), Dane Coles (NZL), Benjamin Kayser (FRA), Saia Fainga'a (AUS), Rory Best (IRE), Richard Hibbard (WAL), Agustín Creevy (ARG), Steven Moore (AUS)

1. (Loosehead Prop) Tendai Mtawarira (RSA), James Slipper (AUS), Wyatt Crockett (NZL), Joe Marler (ENG), Paul James (WAL), Marcos Ayerza (ARG), Alberto De Marchi (ITA), Xavier Chiocci (FRA), Benn Robinson (AUS), Cian Healy (IRE)

 

[McTallshort]

he's mainly a 10. did you mean Alex Goode ?

Yes....

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Yes....

thought so.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Based on watching the 6Ns, June internationals, The RC and Autumn internationals:

1. Healy (Ire)
2. Creevey (Arg)
3. Wilson (Eng)
4. Retallick (NZ)
5. Whitelock (NZ)
6. O'Mahoney (Ire)
7. Hooper (Aus)
8. Vermeulen (SA)

9. Smith (NZ)
10 Sexton (Ireland)
11. Savea (NZ)
12. Fofana (Fra)
13. Kurindrani (Aus)
14. Bin Smuth (NZ)
15. Folau (Aus)

 

[Canuck]

12. (Inside Centre) Kyle Eastmond (ENG), Jean de Villiers (RSA), Jamie Roberts (WAL), Gordon D'Arcy (IRE), Sonny Bill Williams (NZL), Juan Martín Hernández (ARG), Wesley Fofana (FRA), Owen Farrell (ENG), Christian Lealiifano (AUS), Ryan Crotty (NZL)

11. (Left Winger) Jonny May (ENG), Julian Savea (NZL), Liam Williams (WAL), Teddy Thomas (FRA), Bryan Habana (RSA), Tommy Seymour (SCO), Manuel Montero (ARG), Nemani Nadolo (FIJ) George North (WAL), Simon Zebo (IRL)

Just a few thoughts:

1)I think Nadolo should be listed at inside centre since he has played every match for Fiji at #12 this year. If we're considering his Super Rugby position then yes he plays wing but if Domestic Rugby counts in this (which it might given Armitage's selection) then Matt Giteau should probably be included at #12.

2) While we're on that topic another Islander guy that should be considered especially based on his Super Rugby form is Alapati Leiua, #12 seems like a pretty open race and I feel like he would be very well known if he played for a Tier 1 nation.

3) Matt Toomua should be over Lealiifano.

4) One more player to consider at #12 is Malakai Fekitoa who certainly impressed when given a shot with the ABs.

5) Also just a friendly reminder that in SA the blindside flanker wears #7 and the openside flanker #6, so you might want to switch Coetzee and Mahoje (or just drop Oupa since he's not that good)

6) Should definitely have Launchbury as an option at #4. Sure he got injured and missed the last few matches but he still started 9 tests for England this season. When healthy he is without doubt a top five #4 in the world.

7) I know that the ABs have plenty of representation as candidates for this but I really think that Beauden Barrett should be an option at fly-half. He would probably start for just about every other nation in the world and I would rate both him and Cruden as top 3 in the world.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Just a few thoughts:

1)I think Nadolo should be listed at inside centre since he has played every match for Fiji at #12 this year. If we're considering his Super Rugby position then yes he plays wing but if Domestic Rugby counts in this (which it might given Armitage's selection) then Matt Giteau should probably be included at #12.

2) While we're on that topic another Islander guy that should be considered especially based on his Super Rugby form is Alapati Leiua, #12 seems like a pretty open race and I feel like he would be very well known if he played for a Tier 1 nation.

3) Matt Toomua should be over Lealiifano.

4) One more player to consider at #12 is Malakai Fekitoa who certainly impressed when given a shot with the ABs.

5) Also just a friendly reminder that in SA the blindside flanker wears #7 and the openside flanker #6, so you might want to switch Coetzee and Mahoje (or just drop Oupa since he's not that good)

6) Should definitely have Launchbury as an option at #4. Sure he got injured and missed the last few matches but he still started 9 tests for England this season. When healthy he is without doubt a top five #4 in the world.

7) I know that the ABs have plenty of representation as candidates for this but I really think that Beauden Barrett should be an option at fly-half. He would probably start for just about every other nation in the world and I would rate both him and Cruden as top 3 in the world.

good shout there, and i dont disagree with your decisions either, but i want to see what everyone else thinks just to make sure i'll also update the 10 nominations for each position on the first page, and when you were talking about domestic rugby noticed i added Steffon Armitage at 8 considering he has not played a game at international level this year.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

15. (Fullback) Rob Kearney (IRE), Ben Smith (NZL), Willie Le Roux (RSA), Mike Brown (ENG), Stuart Hogg (SCO), Leigh Halfpenny (WAL), Scott Speeding (FRA), Israel Folau (AUS), Israel Dagg (NZL), Joaquín Tuculet (ARG)

14. (Right Winger) Ben Smith (NZL), Adam Ashley-Cooper (AUS), Alex Cuthbert (WAL), Yoann Huget (FRA), Tommy Bowe (IRE), Cornal Hendricks (RSA), Anthony Watson (ENG), Charles Piutau (NZL), Henry Speight (AUS), JP Pietersen (RSA)

13. (Outside Centre) Alex Dunbar (SCO), Jan Serfontein (RSA), Brad Barritt (ENG), Tevita Kuridrani (AUS), Conrad Smith (NZL), Michele Campagnaro (ITA), Malakai Fekitoa (NZL), Jonathan Davies (WAL), Marcelo Bosch (ARG), Robbie Henshaw (IRE)

12. (Inside Centre) Kyle Eastmond (ENG), Jean de Villiers (RSA), Jamie Roberts (WAL), Gordon D'Arcy (IRE), Sonny Bill Williams (NZL), Juan Martín Hernández (ARG), Wesley Fofana (FRA), Owen Farrell (ENG), Christian Lealiifano (AUS), Ryan Crotty (NZL)

11. (Left Winger) Jonny May (ENG), Julian Savea (NZL), Liam Williams (WAL), Teddy Thomas (FRA), Bryan Habana (RSA), Tommy Seymour (SCO), Manuel Montero (ARG), Nemani Nadolo (FIJ) George North (WAL), Simon Zebo (IRL)

10. (Fly-Half) Handré Pollard (RSA), Bernard Foley (AUS), Jonathan Sexton (IRE), George Ford (ENG), Owen Farrell (ENG), Pat Lambie (RSA), Dan Carter (NZL), Aaron Cruden (NZL), Quade Cooper (AUS), Nicolás Sánchez (ARG)

9. (Scrum-Half) Greig Laidlaw (SCO), Conor Murray (IRE), Francois Hougaard (RSA), Nick Phipps (AUS), Will Genia (AUS), Rhys Webb (WAL), Aaron Smith (NZL), Martín Landajo (ARG), Rory Kockott (FRA), Danny Care (ENG)

8. (Number-8) Billy Vunipola (ENG), Kieran Read (NZL), Sergio Parisse (ITA), Taulupe Faletau (WAL), Ben McCalman (AUS), Duane Vermeulen (RSA), Jamie Heaslip (IRE), Ben Morgan (ENG), Louis Picamoles (FRA), Steffon Armitage (ARG)

7. (Openside Flanker) Sam Warburton (WAL), Richie McCaw (NZL), Chris Robshaw (ENG), Michael Hooper (AUS), Oupa Mohojé (RSA), Blair Cowan (SCO), Javier Ortega Desio (ARG), Bernard Le Roux (FRA), Rhys Ruddock (IRE), Sam Cane (NZL)

6. (Blindside Flanker) Tom Wood (ENG), Marcell Coetzee (RSA), Peter O'Mahony (IRE), Dan Lydiate (WAL), Thierry Dusautoir (FRA), Sean McMahon (AUS), Jerome Kaino (NZL), Liam Messam (NZL), James Haskell (ENG), Scott Fardy (AUS)

5. (Second Row) Rob Simmons (AUS), Sam Whitelock (NZL), Courtney Lawes (ENG), Alun Wyn Jones (WAL), Yoann Maestri (FRA), Paul O'Connell (IRE), Victor Matfield (RSA), Jonny Gray (SCO), Tomás Lavanini (ARG), Luke Charteris (WAL)

4. (Second Row) Sam Carter (AUS), Brodie Retallick (NZL), Jeremy Thrush (NZL), Dave Attwood (ENG), Jake Ball (WAL), Pascal Papé (FRA), Eben Etzebeth (RSA), Devin Toner (IRE), Richie Gray (SCO), Bakkies Botha (RSA)

3. (Tighthead Prop) David Wilson (ENG), Owen Franks (NZL), Samson Lee (WAL), Sekope Kepu (AUS), Nicolas Mas (FRA), Mike Ross (IRE), Martin Castrogiovanni (ITA), Coenie Oosthuizen (RSA), Rodney Ah You (IRE), Ben Alexander (AUS)?????!!!!

2. (Hooker) Dylan Hartley (ENG), Adriaan Strauss (RSA), Bismarck du Plessis (RSA), Dane Coles (NZL), Benjamin Kayser (FRA), Saia Fainga'a (AUS), Rory Best (IRE), Richard Hibbard (WAL), Agustín Creevy (ARG), Steven Moore (AUS)

1. (Loosehead Prop) Tendai Mtawarira (RSA), James Slipper (AUS), Wyatt Crockett (NZL), Joe Marler (ENG), Paul James (WAL), Marcos Ayerza (ARG), Alberto De Marchi (ITA), Xavier Chiocci (FRA), Benn Robinson (AUS), Cian Healy (IRE)

The ones highlighted in bold are bizarre inclusions for consideration.

Ben Alexander as one of the best tight-head props of 2014 at international level. Pulease!!!

Anthony Watson on the right wing????!!! Based on 3 matches played for England???

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

The ones highlighted in bold are bizarre inclusions for consideration.

Ben Alexander as one of the best tight-head props of 2014 at international level. Pulease!!!

Anthony Watson on the right wing????!!! Based on 3 matches played for England???

this does include domestic rugby too, not just international but i just couldn't think off anyone else, i think it should be an english winger but none came to mind, well who would you add in instead off the players in bold ?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

15. Smith
14. Bowe
13. Kuindrani
12. Giteau
11. Savea
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Vermeulan
7. Hooper
6. Kaino
5. O'Connell
4. Retallick
3. Wilson, very hard to leave Ah You out!!!
2. Creevy
1. Ayerza

4 NZ and IRE
3 AUS
2 ARG
1 SA and ENG

Bowe is a bit of a stretch as he only played the AIs but he was pretty sexy in those two games.

 

[ENZED-88]

The ones highlighted in bold are bizarre inclusions for consideration.

Ben Alexander as one of the best tight-head props of 2014 at international level. Pulease!!!

Anthony Watson on the right wing????!!! Based on 3 matches played for England???

I think Scotty added the aussie front row because they are the only international team who have mastered the art of reverse scrummaging, until the puma pack proves they can reverse scrummage I would like to see them left out of a world xv

 

[Bada-Bing!]

this does include domestic rugby too, not just international but i just couldn't think off anyone else, i think it should be an english winger but none came to mind, well who would you add in instead off the players in bold ?

I only watch the internationals;it is the pinnacle of the game. I would just take those players in bold out of the list. This should be for the very best players of 2014 and adding the likes of Ben Alexander to the list diminishes it slightly.

 

[inteNZity]

world 15's?
i'll take the ones no one seems to want
15. Halfpenny (wont miss)
14. Jane (kick it to me kick it to me)
13. Conrad Smith (yes we are organised)
11. Habana (catch me if you can)
12. Nonu (Bam)
10. Cruden (wait for it.... now run.. see ya)
9. Rhys Webb (no im not trying to be Aaron)

im working on a forward pack build around Whitelock, Eben Etzebeth, Dane Coles... get back to ya...

 

[Kapa O Pango]

A guy like Bin Smuth would be starting in any World/International XV, just because his Bin Smuth (and his NZer with his all round skill-set, Mr I do the basics perfectly.)