Toulouse boost front row

[Peat]

Nick, the other 8 still find the depth to play in the Amlin. The standard might not be as high, but the need for numbers just as strong.

 

[nickdnz]

Nick, the other 8 still find the depth to play in the Amlin. The standard might not be as high, but the need for numbers just as strong.

I realize that. I do actually watch and follow NH rugby

I was never dismissing the need for more players (the NH is far longer), just that I would have thought the depth of France would have been able to supply more local talent to cover the teams, the way that the New Zealand NPC has around 420 players to fill 14 teams (if the NPC had 40 more games, you'd see squad sizes increase to 40 players). What I guess has been answered is that clubs just have an awful lot of money in which they can afford to buy the best the world has to offer, rather than home-grow most of the talent like New Zealand does. I'm not saying France don't home-grow talent, just that they have the cash to look for alternatives.

 

[Peat]

I realize that. I do actually watch and follow NH rugby

I was never dismissing the need for more players (the NH is far longer), just that I would have thought the depth of France would have been able to supply more local talent to cover the teams, the way that the New Zealand NPC has around 420 players to fill 14 teams (if the NPC had 40 more games, you'd see squad sizes increase to 40 players). What I guess has been answered is that clubs just have an awful lot of money in which they can afford to buy the best the world has to offer, rather than home-grow most of the talent like New Zealand does. I'm not saying France don't home-grow talent, just that they have the cash to look for alternatives.

I'm a pedant.

And yes, the fact that France is swimming with cash and can afford to buy in rather than develop has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't be utterly surprised if young Georgians are cheaper than young Frogs.

However - are all of the NPC players to a high enough standard, or are there quite a few squad fillers around? I don't think there's any country in rugby who can sustain a 12/14 man league at a good enough standard to develop internationals properly using solely their own players. NZ are as good a bet for it as anyone but I think even there, there would be too much of a gap between domestic and international rugby.

 

[nickdnz]

I'm a pedant.

And yes, the fact that France is swimming with cash and can afford to buy in rather than develop has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't be utterly surprised if young Georgians are cheaper than young Frogs.

However - are all of the NPC players to a high enough standard, or are there quite a few squad fillers around? I don't think there's any country in rugby who can sustain a 12/14 man league at a good enough standard to develop internationals properly using solely their own players. NZ are as good a bet for it as anyone but I think even there, there would be too much of a gap between domestic and international rugby.

Oh of course, there is always going to be disparities of talent through out a squad. I would say that they are all capable and qualified to play at a high level anywhere in the world, but not every player is a star (as the 8th choice prop in Toulouse isn't). Because the NPC has considerably less games than overseas, there are plenty of players who really are untested (some only get games in the warmups), but if the NPC expanded it's season to the extent of the Top 14, I think you would see players step it up (not all of which would ever make the starting team, but that's the reality in every sporting team).

 

[ranger]

I'm a pedant.

And yes, the fact that France is swimming with cash and can afford to buy in rather than develop has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't be utterly surprised if young Georgians are cheaper than young Frogs.

However - are all of the NPC players to a high enough standard, or are there quite a few squad fillers around? I don't think there's any country in rugby who can sustain a 12/14 man league at a good enough standard to develop internationals properly using solely their own players. NZ are as good a bet for it as anyone but I think even there, there would be too much of a gap between domestic and international rugby.

Take a look at the gulf in class at the under 20 world cup to see how you could be wrong here.
Producing top class players has a lot more to do with effective coaching and infrastructure than simply marking good players on saturdays. I also steadfastly believe that there is not a massive gulf in quality between the ITM cup and any other competition in the world. Every year the NZ U20 team fields 30 players who look head and shoulders above any other side, then they go home to trial (and largely miss the cut for) their ITM cup squads. The same NH players that were just outclassed go to their sides, and all of a sudden they are vastly superior? these teams are made up of the same guys you know.

There are a whole lot of logistical issues to be overcome before the idea of abolishing the super sides in favour of an HC type ITM cup competion can be put in place, but i sort of want to see it happen just to see the reaction of the ITM cup naysayers brigade.

The squads would be identical, the top players would log a couple more games, but it would essentially be the same lineups. That would be NZs top tier, would people backtrack and say actually the ITM cup isnt so bad? or would the stick to their guns and just say that the number 1 test nation has the worst top flight competition?

 

[Peat]

Take a look at the gulf in class at the under 20 world cup to see how you could be wrong here.
Producing top class players has a lot more to do with effective coaching and infrastructure than simply marking good players on saturdays. I also steadfastly believe that there is not a massive gulf in quality between the ITM cup and any other competition in the world. Every year the NZ U20 team fields 30 players who look head and shoulders above any other side, then they go home to trial (and largely miss the cut for) their ITM cup squads. The same NH players that were just outclassed go to their sides, and all of a sudden they are vastly superior? these teams are made up of the same guys you know.

There are a whole lot of logistical issues to be overcome before the idea of abolishing the super sides in favour of an HC type ITM cup competion can be put in place, but i sort of want to see it happen just to see the reaction of the ITM cup naysayers brigade.

The squads would be identical, the top players would log a couple more games, but it would essentially be the same lineups. That would be NZs top tier, would people backtrack and say actually the ITM cup isnt so bad? or would the stick to their guns and just say that the number 1 test nation has the worst top flight competition?

Ranger, I'd judge on what I'd see in front of me if and when it happens. Can't really do much else.

However, you've missed the point. Its not about whether the best ITM cup teams would be able to go out and put it on everyone else. They would. There is no question of that.

It is whether there be the quality of player across the competition to keep it competitive or whether you'd end up with a situation not unlike the English Football Premiership where you can basically divide it down into three or four mini-leagues and know roughly where everyone is going to finish due to too disparate a level of quality. You need to find over 500 players who will give Conrad Smith, Richie McCaw, Carter and Franks a competitive game week in week out. I know NZ is a conveyor belt of talent, but is there really that much talent there? That is what I doubt. England are closing the gap on NZ at U20 level and are closer than anyone else, but I know we can't dream of that. Maybe if NZ wasn't the biggest exporter of rugby talent out there it could be done - and maybe 12 teams and a return to ITM would generate the cash needed to keep them - but I am skeptical and will remain so until I see the indisputable proof.

Anyway, if the competitive standard across the league is too low, then there will be insufficient matches of a high enough intensity, and preparation for international matches will suffer.

 

[welshglory]

Well when they put Argentina in super rugby they're gonna have to think of something else because 4 conferences in 4 different countries on the other sides of the world from each other isn't gonna work.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

There are roumours that Servat will play for Toulon from next season. That would suck.

 

[big ginger 8]

If you look at the newest transfer thread it's confirmed.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Well, then that sucks.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Well Toulouse only have themselves to blame in losing him, with not being able to offer him a longish contract, yes he is 33 but he has a few good miles left him in to be there in 3-4 years time to aid the development of a youngster.

That said, Toulouse now can look to develop a hooker within now and provide another hooker for France.

 

[kovana]

It is whether there be the quality of player across the competition to keep it competitive or whether you'd end up with a situation not unlike the English Football Premiership where you can basically divide it down into three or four mini-leagues and know roughly where everyone is going to finish due to too disparate a level of quality.

Isnt the NPC like that already?

Since the Pro Era in Rugby.. Only 5 teams have won the NPC... Take a guess.. Otago, Waikato, Welly, Auckland and Cantabs.

Going back even further to its inception.. Its 8 when you include Manawatu, BOP and Counties.

 

[ranger]

Isnt the NPC like that already?

Since the Pro Era in Rugby.. Only 5 teams have won the NPC... Take a guess.. Otago, Waikato, Welly, Auckland and Cantabs.

Going back even further to its inception.. Its 8 when you include Manawatu, BOP and Counties.

Not really.

 

[Pierce Brosnan Rugby]

Nicolas Mas is the best in the world... remember him in the world cup?