Toulon... wtf

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Scotty the team you selected is nothing like that at all if you don't know ask!!!!!!!!
and please no more club v country v money v my dad is bigger than your dad, v my willy is longer than yours bull ****, i'm now going back to bed on my rugby free hols until the last week in June? PLEASE B E do not wake me up again GOODNIGHT!!!!!!!!

what edinburgh ? well we do buy players from else where but atleast we have a balance off players from abroad like our starting XV + Bench, the majority off players are from scotland.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Tony, gaston, what d'you think ? I quite like it. Very simple, barely different from the actual word...but nice and catchy. How could we have been so....blind, all this time...

Scotty there is a lot of truth in what you have worded with your keyboard. I understand the frustration that you are voicing, although I cannot actually hear the voice...(the sad world of mass communicashun..).
But you see You'reScotty, when you say "not enough Frenchmen in teams; not like France is lacking talent..", Boudjellal tells you he doesn't give the smallest dragonfly caca about that because as good as some French guys are, there's just better. Look at the 'best players per position' thread I made. There are French names. Many in fact. But how many of those are Top 1 or 2 or 3 ? France would need to have ridiculous, ridiculous talent to overtake the mass influx of dirty foreigners soiling our beloved land. Yes there is Wenceslas Lauret...but then again there's Gorgodzilla. Yes France has really good wingers...but better than Habana ?

but cant they not see see i dont mean just talent in the professional teams i mean the young france players. the thing is with japan im sure some people accuse them for signing top players from abroad but what i like better is that the japanese clubs i have not seen one team from japan all filled up with players they bought from abroad there are actually quite alot off japanese players in the top league and thats why japan is massively improving so the stars can teach what they know to help they're team get higher up and more skillful and since the majority off players are from japan in the teams XV it improves the japanese teams. i'll say yes its ok to buy players from abroad but dont overload with players who aren't french.

and about what you said

yes France has really good wingers...but better than Habana

well no, they're aren't but what i meant is that if the players are good then why is there need for better why not improve the players for france so there they become more dangerous and cause alot off damage. i seen what france use to be like, a very talented team, i want to see that again from them

 

[gaston le gaff]

I do believe you posted a typical Toulon team nothing to do with Edinburgh!!!!!!!!we really dont mind where you buy your players from everywhere and anywhere even Scotland if it pleases you, and we dont mind if they are all Scottish, or some, or none at all but we are different we have a very strong Championship, hence we buy the best players from all over the World even Scotland, not many!!!! though as long as you dont mind we will be carrying on with this chain of thoughts as it does bring success. We have rules and be obey them end of story...............

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

then what do you mean by Scotty the team you selected is nothing like that at all

 

[gaston le gaff]

.) Carl Hayman
2.) Guilhem Guirado
3.) Martin Castrogiovanni
4.) Bakkies Botha
5.) Ali Williams
6.) Mamuka Gorgodze
7.) Steffon Armitage
8.) Chris Masoe
9.) Michael Claassens
10.) James O'Connor
11.) Bryan Habana
12.) Matt Giteau
13.) Maxime Mermoz
14.) Drew Mitchell
15.) Leigh Halfpenny

ok so yeah only 2 french players in the starting XV in a french is ridiculous, how are they improving french rugby and yes toulon are the worst for this but i know there are other french teams who aren't doing any better eg. Racing Metro and Stade Francais is getting there and maybe Casters. the only team i see which have a good number off french players is Toulouse so well done to them and i may aswell to the subs for it to check it out.

16.) Craig Burden
17.) Levan Chilachava
18.) Andrew Sheridan
19.) Ian Evans
20.) Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
21.) Nicolas Durand
22.) Frédéric Michalak
23.) Delon Armitage
What you put as a typical toulon team is not that.. and Toulon will use a squad system as next season they will be playing both comps because to 100% they can.......... players will be automatically rested every other game and few will play more than 16/20 TOP 14 games, this is the resion why they are so effective, they have the resources to play both comps to the max and they proved that by winning both last season and coming close the season before, and could well do the same again this year.

 

[gaston le gaff]

very good post gaston, taught me a lot. Not bad for a deep sleeper, you articulate your thoughts fairly well in your somnolence !
What position did you play ?.

Still awake, i started at 11yrs playing 10 and 15 went to France bulked up and played wing forward 6 or7 100kg till i was 34 then stopped at 36 last 2 seasons played a bit of lock as the speed was getting rusty and the young uns getting faster lived on experience and whatever i could find to get me through!!!!!!! but great times

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

.) Carl Hayman
2.) Guilhem Guirado
3.) Martin Castrogiovanni
4.) Bakkies Botha
5.) Ali Williams
6.) Mamuka Gorgodze
7.) Steffon Armitage
8.) Chris Masoe
9.) Michael Claassens
10.) James O'Connor
11.) Bryan Habana
12.) Matt Giteau
13.) Maxime Mermoz
14.) Drew Mitchell
15.) Leigh Halfpenny

ok so yeah only 2 french players in the starting XV in a french is ridiculous, how are they improving french rugby and yes toulon are the worst for this but i know there are other french teams who aren't doing any better eg. Racing Metro and Stade Francais is getting there and maybe Casters. the only team i see which have a good number off french players is Toulouse so well done to them and i may aswell to the subs for it to check it out.

16.) Craig Burden
17.) Levan Chilachava
18.) Andrew Sheridan
19.) Ian Evans
20.) Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
21.) Nicolas Durand
22.) Frédéric Michalak
23.) Delon Armitage
What you put as a typical toulon team is not that.. and Toulon will use a squad system as next season they will be playing both comps because to 100% they can.......... players will be automatically rested every other game and few will play more than 16/20 TOP 14 games, this is the resion why they are so effective, they have the resources to play both comps to the max and they proved that by winning both last season and coming close the season before, and could well do the same again this year.

oh right that i suppose i shoud have never made my XV when i was trying to make a point since i dont follow the french league. i posted this because im scared to see the top 14 shaping out like the Barclay Premier League in football , everyone wants to play in that league because off money. because if i picked a football team i would like the players to play because they love playing football not because off money. and i fear that will happen to toulon and the Top 14 players will join because off the money

 

[Amobokoboko]

You will always have people playing with passion and people playing with money signs in their eyes. But when being strictly competitive it's just very normal that a players picks a team with healthy ambitions. If the salary is ok as well I wouldn't doubt a second.
The true issue is that clubs are willing to pay so much for a certain player.

If clubs would attract less foreign players and invest more in domestic players you will have still some good teams (I think of Stade Toulousain which has a lot of good French players) but they might struggle against teams who act the opposite.

 

[Big Ewis]

Scotty, because the Top 14 (like everything else in the world) is all about money. To some extent it's about winning, but in the end coaches and players are pressured by the sort of money that goes into the whole industry. Presidents aren't paying tons of money for the wellbeing of France's talent or whatever, they're businessmen. Some of them might have a few principles, but that's nothing in itself. Money rules, money commands, and money dictates what happens.

If all that matters is winning Scotty, then what do you want for your team ? The best coach, best wingers, best flankers...etc money can buy. There's a salary cap, a limit ? Okay, let's make it so we fit what the law on the paper says, but in reality we're hiding stuff. Like asking an alcoholic "did you drink beer today ?!" and he answers "no" and pretends like all is well but he had another kind of drink, just not beer. He didn't lie really, but he's not saying the truth either. There are all kinds of ways around rules and laws...

So if Toulouse have Hosea Gear or Yoann Huget on the wing, we'll get Habana. They don't give a shhit about French talent and France and French Rugby or whatever, once you're in that whirling spiral, it sucks everything in, and if you want to compete in this league you're going to have to put the best team money can buy together, which sounds logical. But it's a lot easier and way faster to get the best, already trained and more talented anyways than the local French guys; than going through the time, effort and wait for the young guys to grow.

Of course there is a quota as we've said. Every team needs to have at least 55% of Frenchmen. But in Toulon's case, they sit a lot of the French guys on the bench and play their Lobbes and their Wilkinsons.

The league can only go in this direction, although there'll always be French talent about, obviously.

 

[gaston le gaff]

oh right that i suppose i shoud have never made my XV when i was trying to make a point since i dont follow the french league. i posted this because im scared to see the top 14 shaping out like the Barclay Premier League in football , everyone wants to play in that league because off money. because if i picked a football team i would like the players to play because they love playing football not because off money. and i fear that will happen to toulon and the Top 14 players will join because off the money

This is how it is, the money is fine but also lifestyle is very important, wives kids are not motivated just by money so it has to be a package, and you have to remember that teams sign overseas players that will mould into the clubs needs and not just hap hazard signings because they are great players
The difference between the Barclays and the TOP 14 is money so they will never be the same........ your comments of playing for the team is all very well i agree but its history in the pro era this is business and it works i was against it but believe me i see great games every week with some of the worlds best on show how can you worry about that. As far as affecting the National team it does not we have great academies in France producing great players the National teams performances have nothing to do with money or foreingers it has all to do with the FFR and their coach selections, once they get decent coaches instead of Yes Men in suits, living in Paris things will not improve the next will probably be Pelous, but that could be an improvement, first get rid of the present and before the WC but i doubt that is going to happen just wish for 2 more +50 defeats and it just might.

 

[Big Ewis]

As far as affecting the National team it does not we have great academies in France producing great players the National teams performances have nothing to do with money or foreingers it has all to do with the FFR and their coach selections, once they get decent coaches instead of Yes Men in suits,

that's very true. It's not 100% the FFR/coaching staff's fault, but it's close. You have to add into the equation the foreigner problem a bit still, but also in particular the Top 14 calendar. But I agree with you in that those two things are not the main cause. The far bigger problem is simply the coaching staff, I don't think anyone could discuss that further. Simple as that.

EDIT:
and btw, about the coaching staff, I'd literally have any coach from the Top 14 over PSA and Lagisquet right now I think. For the ones I can actually speak for, I'd have Christophe Urios (OYO), Galthié (MP), Gonzalo Quesada (Stade Frites-Patate), any of those two Castres guys (Darricarère for the backs and Milhas), Raphaël Ibanez (Bordeaux).

Possibly Frank Azéma (newly in control in Clermont since Cotter's departure), the guys from Brive, the crew for Grenoble which I don't know but looking at their team's form despite having no stars...

And I'm not even talking about Laporte who'll never ever come back, and Delmas+Mignoni whom I'm sure aren't crazy enough to plunge into there...

 

[gaston le gaff]

This is all in agreement, young players are coming through the academies and leaving around 22/ 23 not many will get regular games in the TOP 14 for obvious reasons, but i have always said that a loan situation should happen between the 2 top divisions, this to my great joy is starting to happen, the players stay attached to the TOP 14 teams but the Pro D2 picks up the wage bills normally the time is 1/2 seasons, this gives the youngsters the game time which they would not get in the TOP 14 and also the great experience which is needed before you step up into the Elite....playing Espoirs week in week does not give you that expirience which is necessary for the Elite divisions. This gives you an all round better player than if he stayed with his TOP14 team. The players aged 22/23 are far and few who make it without this sort of experience, and believe you me the Pro D2 is a tough leaugue to operate in, far tougher than the TOP 14 but the quality and speed are not the same, (ask Tony after he experiences it a bit at BO.) so if groups of teams were to get together eg (Montpellier Narbonne, Beziers Carcassone this could happen very easily as they are all in the same areas and the youngsters would be always within reasonable disatance of their families, which is also important

 

[Basco]

I don't see what the problem is with having foreigners. They lift the level of the competition. If you'd kick all the foreigners out it'd be like having all the French Top14 players transferred to the ProD2.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I don't see what the problem with having foreigners. They lift the level of the competition. If you'd kick all the foreigners out it'd be like having all the French Top14 players transferred to the ProD2.

Who said foreigners were a problem certainly not moi!!!!!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

I don't see what the problem is with having foreigners. They lift the level of the competition. If you'd kick all the foreigners out it'd be like having all the French Top14 players transferred to the ProD2.

you're coming a bit late with this and I don't have the patience to repeat everything. But here's one example that would give you an idea about the 'cons', as opposed to the 'pros' (because there are pros too), that foreigners cause:
Tighthead prop: long, laborious training, and very rare to find a good one anyways. Just buy a good one who's already all trained and ready to go from Georgia or Samoa. No time to lose. Our French Tightheads never get the attention they need, playing time...etc...whole league is full of non-French Tightheads...country is in a Tighthead deficiency situation. French scrum suffers. Clubs are taking shortcuts, unnatural shortcuts, hiring all these internationals. Foreigners are there to fill gaps and add a dynamic to a group, but shouldn't be the fabric itself you need to build teams with.
It's artificial, a huge shortcut, and a problem for local talent.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

going to add this hear as i think Mourad Boudjellal said this and this explains everything.

Toulon boss Mourad Boudjellal has dismissed suggestions there are too many foreign players in French domestic rugby as 'bullsh*t'.

Foreign players in Top 14:
South Africans - 51
New Zealanders - 31
GB & Irish - 29
Fijian - 20
Australian -17
Samoan - 16
Tongan - 12
Argentinian - 11
Georgian - 11
Others - 22

so yeah not much foreigners in the top 14 yeah ?

 

[Big Ewis]

damn...that's a lot of Saffas...but Scotty, Boudjellal doesn't say there aren't too many foreigners in the Top 14, he's saying it's not a problem that there are so many.
He's saying "yeah there may be a lot, but it's not a problem".

 

[profitius]

going to add this hear as i think Mourad Boudjellal said this and this explains everything.

Foreign players in Top 14:
South Africans - 51
New Zealanders - 31
GB & Irish - 29
Fijian - 20
Australian -17
Samoan - 16
Tongan - 12
Argentinian - 11
Georgian - 11
Others - 22

so yeah not much foreigners in the top 14 yeah ?

Nearly 16 per squad and they're also most likely to start.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i know it will dominate but does anyone have the numbers off french players in the top 14 ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's at least 7.