To Haka or Not to Haka...

[SaintsFan_Webby]

The Welsh don't have to respect any culture who visits their country more than they respect their own. I note everyone is concerned about offending Maori culture, shame that everyone forgets that they were in someone elses house. The WRU never forced the AB's to do the Haka, or told them not to. they only told them what the schedule was for THEIR event.
[/b]

Have to agree with this.

The All Blacks have no right whatsoever to do a haka, other nations respect them and their traditions so they accomodate it.

You don't see any of the European nations pulling out elements of their tribal heritage and bringing it onto the rugby field.

New Zealand rugby needs to realise that although performing the haka is special to them (and many fans, I personally love seeing it) other nations don't have to let them do whatever they want.

 

[ShowMe]

It's hard enough to beat the All Blacks at the best of times, firing them up as well won't make matters any easier.
[/b]

EXACTLY
Dont fix it if it aint broke, its been working for a hundred years and these boardroom pimps wanna hussle? oh please...the people who took the grunt for the WRU mistakes were the 15 players in red...open your eyes! Whats worse than playing an awesome AB team...an angry one. Doh!

 

[BokMagic]

Firstly, on the issue of respecting past traditions- there are way too few traditions left in the great game of Rugby. The only 2 I can really think of is the 4-yearly Lions tours and the Haka. Those things are sacred IMO, and should NEVER be tampered with. If all the fine traditions of rugby union continues to be eroded, soon we`ll be left with international "friendlies" like in soccer- oh sorry, almost forgot- some idiot at the IRB has already talked about a "friendly" earlier this week.

Where are the fine traditions of "what happens on the field, stays on the field"? All too often nowadays we have coaches talking up a big game before the match, opponents making money selling 'exclusive" material during their retirement biography. Tours have all but gone, only the Lions tours remain.

As I am not Maori, I cannot offer any thoughts wrt the Haka protocol, as I haven`t lived in the specific culture- but if NZ were assured that the mid-anthem Haka on last year`s tour was a one-off to celebrate the Welsh centenary, and the WRU now went against that, well then I reckon I`ll say fair play to NZ for defending the fine tradition- after all, we do not want the Haka to become a sideshow, there are enough sideshows in international rugby these days anyway.

For the record, I have a huge respect for McCaw as one of the few players left with a respect for the great traditions of rugby union- look at the way he refused to make a big media scene after being targeted by Elsom and co. during this year`s tri-nations.

 

[haggis]

i think that the all blacks doing there haka in the shed made them more fired up!! but i agree that the ABs have to respect other people. personally i dont care if the haka is shown! i mean its SO cool when its shown, dont get me wrong, but do you pay whatever you pay for a ticket or turn the tv on to see the haka being done by the ABs, or do you want to see a class game of rugby being played and New Zealand the best team in the world playing some awesome!








p.s im scottish so dont know about maori tradition so if i get kicked up the bum i dont mind!!

 

[The Flash]

What! Why would you get kicked up the bum. We don't have to kiss up to Welsh, Maori, French, Irish, American or any culture.

I'm beginning to worry that the world feels that it must be PC to indigenous peoples only. Thats not true, any culture can be called to question on it's ideals.

I love that our country has the All Blacks, I love that our country has maori and pacific island, along with asian and European peoples, although no culture deserves to impose itself into another country's backyard and re-jig their plans.

Equally, no-one had the right to make the AB's do it either. What actually happened in the weekend is that both parties had to respect each others rules. I'm happy with that.

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0500rugbyun...#story_continue


'I'm proud of Welshness'

Nov 28 2006

Cathy Owen, South Wales Echo


The cameraman at the centre of the New Zealand haka storm says he was accused of bringing disgrace on Wales.

Richard Owen says the WRU commercial director Rupert Moon called into question his loyalty to Wales, after filming the All Blacks performing their pre-match ritual in the changing room.

The players had refused to perform the haka on the pitch before the Welsh anthem as requested by the WRU.

Mr Owen, who is a director of media company Redshoes Ltd, was ushered out of the stadium by Rupert Moon at the start of the game.

He said he was filming for Sky New Zealand and was fully accredited and once he had the haka on tape he gave it to the Sky New Zealand producer. But he did not know how the footage was shown in the stadium or on the BBC

Mr Owen said, when Rupert Moon accused him of bringing disgrace on Wales: 'Watching them perform the haka had made me feel even more proud of my Welshness.'

A stadium spokeswoman said Mr Owen was not accredited and he was ejected from the stadium for this breach of security.


Rupert Moon is an idiot.
How could the cameraman be accused of bringing disgrace onto Wales?!

I'm a proud Welshman and i love my Welsh rugby team, but if that was my job i don't see why my nationality should stop me.
He's not exactly being traitorous to Wales.
The footage he filmed was awesome to tell you the truth.
Rupert Moon is such a drama queen!

Well done to the cameraman, i say.

 

[shiznit]

What! Why would you get kicked up the bum. We don't have to kiss up to Welsh, Maori, French, Irish, American or any culture.

I'm beginning to worry that the world feels that it must be PC to indigenous peoples only. Thats not true, any culture can be called to question on it's ideals.

I love that our country has the All Blacks, I love that our country has maori and pacific island, along with asian and European peoples, although no culture deserves to impose itself into another country's backyard and re-jig their plans.

Equally, no-one had the right to make the AB's do it either. What actually happened in the weekend is that both parties had to respect each others rules. I'm happy with that.
[/b]

ohhh here we go....

why does it not suprise me that we have a southlander ripping off Maori culture... are you abit upset that uncle don wont be prime minister anymore so you blame the Maori's??

Wales have Sonny Parker playing for them so that probably means they have more Maori's in Wales then in Southland now.

you respect everyones culture. home and away. as far as i can see... the all blacks didnt disrespect the welsh and theyre culture but they were not comfortable with doing the Haka when the welsh told them. thats fair enough... if they dont want do the haka then fine.

i was always taught by my parents that you respect peoples culture and beliefs no matter what. alot of my uncles and aunty's fought for years to make sure that Maori culture would stay alive and was treated in the correct and approriate way.

its redneck idiots like you that nearly killed our culture off in the 1st place.

 

[The Flash]

Don't you dare insinuate racism on my part. I have maori friends and I am not a redneck. I have not taken any "side" on this issue. I was talking about peoples rights in their own country.

I have not "blamed" maori's for anything.

Call me a racist or redneck again and I'll delete any post you make of the sort. It's liars like you who cause problems.

Finish it now. I deserve an apology. I won't get one from a person who called me a racist, whilst bandying a racist term like "redneck" at me and inferring I had something to do with a suggested genocide.

Had the Welsh or ANY other nation come to New Zealand trying to change the order of our pre-game, I'd of said "No way, we do things our way in our country".

As for having a go at my province, we'll all I can say is Northland is worthy of better people than you. See, I don't stoop to your (shiznit) pathetic level.

By the way, I voted Labour.

 

[Fitzblado]

i think the AB should have done it regardless of what the Welsh said.It just made them more up for it.It was synical mind games on behalf of WRU trying to put the AB off and they got pasted for it.

As for respecting peoples culture i think common sense should prevail.

If Ireland can let England play God Save the Queen in Croke Park then anything is possible

 

[fcukernaut]

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0500rugbyun...#story_continue


'I'm proud of Welshness'

Nov 28 2006

Cathy Owen, South Wales Echo


The cameraman at the centre of the New Zealand haka storm says he was accused of bringing disgrace on Wales.

Richard Owen says the WRU commercial director Rupert Moon called into question his loyalty to Wales, after filming the All Blacks performing their pre-match ritual in the changing room.

The players had refused to perform the haka on the pitch before the Welsh anthem as requested by the WRU.

Mr Owen, who is a director of media company Redshoes Ltd, was ushered out of the stadium by Rupert Moon at the start of the game.

He said he was filming for Sky New Zealand and was fully accredited and once he had the haka on tape he gave it to the Sky New Zealand producer. But he did not know how the footage was shown in the stadium or on the BBC

Mr Owen said, when Rupert Moon accused him of bringing disgrace on Wales: 'Watching them perform the haka had made me feel even more proud of my Welshness.'

A stadium spokeswoman said Mr Owen was not accredited and he was ejected from the stadium for this breach of security.


Rupert Moon is an idiot.
How could the cameraman be accused of bringing disgrace onto Wales?!

I'm a proud Welshman and i love my Welsh rugby team, but if that was my job i don't see why my nationality should stop me.
He's not exactly being traitorous to Wales.
The footage he filmed was awesome to tell you the truth.
Rupert Moon is such a drama queen!

Well done to the cameraman, i say.
[/b]

It's stupid things said and done like this(in reference to Moon) that get's the public all riled up and costs you your job. Good work you silly bafoon, you just put yourself on the hot seat.

 

[top gun]

its awesome to see the AB's take pride in the Haka these days too
they perform it so menacingly... with meaning

league boys should take note.. how it should be done

 

[ShowMe]

<div class='quotemain'>
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0500rugbyun...#story_continue


'I'm proud of Welshness'

Nov 28 2006

Cathy Owen, South Wales Echo


The cameraman at the centre of the New Zealand haka storm says he was accused of bringing disgrace on Wales.

Richard Owen says the WRU commercial director Rupert Moon called into question his loyalty to Wales, after filming the All Blacks performing their pre-match ritual in the changing room.

The players had refused to perform the haka on the pitch before the Welsh anthem as requested by the WRU.

Mr Owen, who is a director of media company Redshoes Ltd, was ushered out of the stadium by Rupert Moon at the start of the game.

He said he was filming for Sky New Zealand and was fully accredited and once he had the haka on tape he gave it to the Sky New Zealand producer. But he did not know how the footage was shown in the stadium or on the BBC

Mr Owen said, when Rupert Moon accused him of bringing disgrace on Wales: 'Watching them perform the haka had made me feel even more proud of my Welshness.'

A stadium spokeswoman said Mr Owen was not accredited and he was ejected from the stadium for this breach of security.


Rupert Moon is an idiot.
How could the cameraman be accused of bringing disgrace onto Wales?!

I'm a proud Welshman and i love my Welsh rugby team, but if that was my job i don't see why my nationality should stop me.
He's not exactly being traitorous to Wales.
The footage he filmed was awesome to tell you the truth.
Rupert Moon is such a drama queen!

Well done to the cameraman, i say.
[/b]

It's stupid things said and done like this(in reference to Moon) that get's the public all riled up and costs you your job. Good work you silly bafoon, you just put yourself on the hot seat.
[/b][/quote]

Agreed, its gettin a bit silly now...not just out there but in these boards as well, just reading those posts up top the issues hitting home closer to some members more than others for obvious reasons and unfortunately its gettin personal.

*strikes up the guitar*
[sings]why cant we be friends, why cant we be friends...[/sings]
group hug everyone lol

 

[The Flash]

If it's anything to do with me, it's just that I'm a NZ'er who can look at both points of view.

I've said nothing personal that has attacked anyone, unless they have attacked me first, and would welcome a quote if anyone can find one.

 

[Dumbo]

Looking at the post shiznit please explain further as you seem to be out of line and way of the mark... "another South Islander ripping off Maori culture"... where the hell did that come from? I'm of Maori descent and my father was born in Invercargill and last time I looked I don't think his dark colour was due to sun bathing.

Why do you think Flash is a redneck? I read nothing that could be considered in that light? Did I miss something?

 

[DanCarterite]

The "maori chief" contacted by the WRU is an Academic in Christchurch, he is certainly Maori and he is a Kaumatua (elder) in his tribe, but he himself has come out and said that the WRU never told him, when asking if the Welsh National Anthem was an appropriate Haka response, that they intended to sandwich the haka between the anthems, something he says is not appropriate at all.

This is a case of the WRU hearing what they want to hear and going off half cocked because of it. In the six weeks of "negotiations" between the unions NZ's position on doing the Haka between the Anthems remained the same, especially as the WRU had promised that this positioning for the centenary test was a one off.

Yes it seems a little petty to me that the AB's did their Haka in the shed and denied the fans the pleasure of seeing it, but... whilst I fault them a little bit I fault the WRU a whole lot more.

For me the perfect Haka response would have been for the Millenium Stadium to erupt into "Bread of Heaven", something in it's own way as awesome and idiosyncratic as the Haka itself. I cherish the memory of standing in the old Arms Park with "Bread of Heaven" ringing around the stadium just as much as I treasure the memory of my first live Haka led by Buck Shelford.

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>
What! Why would you get kicked up the bum. We don't have to kiss up to Welsh, Maori, French, Irish, American or any culture.

I'm beginning to worry that the world feels that it must be PC to indigenous peoples only. Thats not true, any culture can be called to question on it's ideals.

I love that our country has the All Blacks, I love that our country has maori and pacific island, along with asian and European peoples, although no culture deserves to impose itself into another country's backyard and re-jig their plans.

Equally, no-one had the right to make the AB's do it either. What actually happened in the weekend is that both parties had to respect each others rules. I'm happy with that.
[/b]

ohhh here we go....

why does it not suprise me that we have a southlander ripping off Maori culture... are you abit upset that uncle don wont be prime minister anymore so you blame the Maori's??

Wales have Sonny Parker playing for them so that probably means they have more Maori's in Wales then in Southland now.

you respect everyones culture. home and away. as far as i can see... the all blacks didnt disrespect the welsh and theyre culture but they were not comfortable with doing the Haka when the welsh told them. thats fair enough... if they dont want do the haka then fine.

i was always taught by my parents that you respect peoples culture and beliefs no matter what. alot of my uncles and aunty's fought for years to make sure that Maori culture would stay alive and was treated in the correct and approriate way.

its redneck idiots like you that nearly killed our culture off in the 1st place.
[/b][/quote]
What the f*** does that have to do with anything? And while I may be no expert on Maori, last time I checked, I believe their are Maori in the South Island of New Zealand, didn't they burn all the forests down?. Shiznit likes to play the race card and has f***ed up views on life, whenever he ventures into the 4 Corners forum on Leaugeunlimited its always amusing.

Originally posted by The Flash
By the way, I voted Labour

I hope you burn in Hell.

 

[Gay-Guy]

For me the perfect Haka response would have been for the Millenium Stadium to erupt into "Bread of Heaven", something in it's own way as awesome and idiosyncratic as the Haka itself. I cherish the memory of standing in the old Arms Park with "Bread of Heaven" ringing around the stadium just as much as I treasure the memory of my first live Haka led by Buck Shelford.
[/b]

This is the real guts....the WRU chose the wrong way on how to respond to the haka. National anthems are in a class of their own and are not "pre match entertainment." They are sacred and should be left alone....to try and respond to a pre match entertainment ritual (cos that is what the haka originally was) with something as sacred as the national anthem is appropriate in a Maori context.....but not in a sporting one. "Bread of Heaven" would have freaked me out a whole lot more as a response as I know the words from singing it in church and you can really tie the meaning into an objective for the Welsh players to "be strong."

Guide me, O Thou great Redeemer
Pilgrim through this barren land
I am weak but Thou art mighty
Hold me with Thy powerful hand.

Bread of heaven, bread of heaven
Feed me till I want no more (I want no more)
Feed me till I want no more.

Open now the crystal fountain
Whence the healing waters flow
Let the fiery, cloudy pillar
Lead me all my journey through.

Strong Deliv'rer, Strong Deliv'rer
Be Thou still my strength and shield (strength and shield)
Be Thou still my strength and shield.

When I tread the verge of Jordan
Bid my anxious fears subside
Death of death, and hell's destruction,
Land me safe on Canaan's side

Songs of praises, songs of praises
I will ever give to Thee (give to Thee)
I will ever give to Thee.

Mate....with all those Welsh fans singing at the same time....bloody hell...the Welsh may have been the team to come out fully fired up and could have immediately put the AB's on the defensive. Very hard to dig yourself out of a rut when you are on the back foot. This would have so added to the occasion and could have re-sparked a once strong rivalry!

In the end the WRU focussed too much on trying to depower the AB's rather than empowering the Welsh players.....and it backfired. They should have looked at history and noted that the AB's play their best when their backs are against the wall and play their shockers when they are expected to win. The NZ team did their haka LITERALLY on Saturday with their backs agaginst the walls of a changing room. By the time they came out they were ready to break out from that oppressive feel....which they did in the 4th minute. After 4 mins when the first try was scored I knew the game was over.

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>
For me the perfect Haka response would have been for the Millenium Stadium to erupt into "Bread of Heaven", something in it's own way as awesome and idiosyncratic as the Haka itself. I cherish the memory of standing in the old Arms Park with "Bread of Heaven" ringing around the stadium just as much as I treasure the memory of my first live Haka led by Buck Shelford.
[/b]

This is the real guts....the WRU chose the wrong way on how to respond to the haka. National anthems are in a class of their own and are not "pre match entertainment." They are sacred and should be left alone....to try and respond to a pre match entertainment ritual (cos that is what the haka originally was) with something as sacred as the national anthem is appropriate in a Maori context.....but not in a sporting one. "Bread of Heaven" would have freaked me out a whole lot more as a response as I know the words from singing it in church and you can really tie the meaning into an objective for the Welsh players to "be strong."

Guide me, O Thou great Redeemer
Pilgrim through this barren land
I am weak but Thou art mighty
Hold me with Thy powerful hand.

Bread of heaven, bread of heaven
Feed me till I want no more (I want no more)
Feed me till I want no more.

Open now the crystal fountain
Whence the healing waters flow
Let the fiery, cloudy pillar
Lead me all my journey through.

Strong Deliv'rer, Strong Deliv'rer
Be Thou still my strength and shield (strength and shield)
Be Thou still my strength and shield.

When I tread the verge of Jordan
Bid my anxious fears subside
Death of death, and hell's destruction,
Land me safe on Canaan's side

Songs of praises, songs of praises
I will ever give to Thee (give to Thee)
I will ever give to Thee.

Mate....with all those Welsh fans singing at the same time....bloody hell...the Welsh may have been the team to come out fully fired up and could have immediately put the AB's on the defensive. Very hard to dig yourself out of a rut when you are on the back foot. This would have so added to the occasion and could have re-sparked a once strong rivalry!

In the end the WRU focussed too much on trying to depower the AB's rather than empowering the Welsh players.....and it backfired. They should have looked at history and noted that the AB's play their best when their backs are against the wall and play their shockers when they are expected to win. The NZ team did their haka LITERALLY on Saturday with their backs agaginst the walls of a changing room. By the time they came out they were ready to break out from that oppressive feel....which they did in the 4th minute. After 4 mins when the first try was scored I knew the game was over.
[/b][/quote]
And nothing riles them up more than ignoring/disrespecting the Haka. Like in 1996 when the Wallabies didn't face the Haka that one windy, rainy day...

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

Personally, i would not have been very happy about singing the national anthem after seeing the haka.
The haka for me is the thing i want after i'm tingling from having sung our national anthem, and would prefer to go straight into the match (as per usual) singing my heart out with all other hymn we have.
The problem with the Welsh crowd is that they don't want to sit back, respect and take in the awesomeness that is the haka. Some people just start singing Bread Of Heaven right in the middle of the haka. Then a majority of the stadium joins in and THAT'S annoying.
To me, if i were a New Zealander, i'd be annoyed with the that display from the other country.
Then again, maybe it's just me wanting to hear the haka as it should be, live in the stadium.

Basically, all i'm trying to say is i can see where the WRU are coming from in trying to create an "official" response because when you do the haka we don't have one. They're all singing Bread Of Heaven from the moment "Ka Mate Ka Mate" are leaving your lips and the crowd are just trying to be louder than the AB players...it's just a chaotic mess.

 

[loratadine]

why the f*** should anyone respect the haka, people do it out of choice, its a great tradition, and one im sad not to have witnessed on saturday but nz doesnt have a devine right in rugby. and they were playing on our turf, if you ask me it was just nz flexing there muscles again, id hate to see them become the chelsea of rugby.

and to add, yes i think the national anthem as a response was the wrong call, but its just irritates me that new zealand think they can call the shots, if they want to throw there dummy out of the crib then so be it.


i mean who sais the all blacks perform the haka last thus getting themselves fired up and having a psychological edge on there opponents, there no law in the irb which sais "the haka must be performed after the anthems just before kick off" its bullshit, we let the all blacks keep there tradition. in other sports this tradition would have died in the 70's, its only the good rugby folk who sit back and let nz march into there country and have the last word before the game starts.

i