The lockerbie bomber.

[Cave Dweller]

Yes because it makes perfect sence to kill an number of citizens from a number of countries, and wait 20 plus years before taking military action.

Not with the Lockerby incident. That was done afterwards and not such action needed as Libya signed.

But on the other subject. Terrorism has a clear objective.

THE RULE HAS CHANGED. There is new game in town.

Bill Clinton ordered 50 Tomahawks Cruise missiles costing $1,000,000 each to destroy $50 mud houses that belonged to Osama's family. What a stupidity? What a poor ROI (Return On Investment)! And then Bush went into Iraq!

In return Osama's attack on the US.
Cost: 19 martyrs and less than $500,000.
Cost to the West: over 3,000 dead.

At least $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) dollars economical loss in one year. This includes the ripple effect.

Osama's ROI with respect to: life = 3,000/19 = 158 fold.
Dollar = $1 tr./500K = 2,000,000 fold

That is modern warfare. The West will loose.

 

[lucky number 7]

 

[Saintjay]

Not with the Lockerby incident. That was done afterwards and not such action needed as Libya signed.

But on the other subject. Terrorism has a clear objective.

THE RULE HAS CHANGED. There is new game in town.

Bill Clinton ordered 50 Tomahawks Cruise missiles costing $1,000,000 each to destroy $50 mud houses that belonged to Osama's family. What a stupidity? What a poor ROI (Return On Investment)! And then Bush went into Iraq!

In return Osama's attack on the US.
Cost: 19 martyrs and less than $500,000.
Cost to the West: over 3,000 dead.

At least $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) dollars economical loss in one year. This includes the ripple effect.

Osama's ROI with respect to: life = 3,000/19 = 158 fold.
Dollar = $1 tr./500K = 2,000,000 fold

That is modern warfare. The West will loose.

You are so far off of the mark. Terrorism is not modern warfare for a start maybe you need to read up on history. Guy Fawkes and all that. It is the attempt to change politics by force. War modern or other wise still holds one simple truth the winner tends to be the person that can take ground and hold it. No terror organisation in the world has that ability. Only the potential to change political opinion or the opinions of people.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Proceedings for the second appeal for Abd al Baset Ali al Megrahi opened in October 2007, and
preliminary hearings were held in an effort to determine the scope of his appeal. Defense
attorneys sought access to classified information regarding key pieces of evidence, reportedly
including classified intelligence documents related to the supply of timers by a Swiss company to
the Libyan intelligence service. The documents reportedly originated with a third country’s
government, and that government refused to grant permission for the documents to be made
available to the court by British authorities.32

In May 2008, the British government filed a Public Interest Immunity (PII) order with the
Scottish court seeking to keep the documents secret, but the court ruled that the government was
required to “produce for the court the documents in question ... subject to appropriate security
measures.â€33 In June 2008, the prosecution reportedly argued to restrict the appeal to the original
terms under which the appeal was granted, while the defense reportedly argued that new evidence.

should be considered. Al Megrahi’s appeal for release on bail on the basis of his diagnosis with
terminal prostate cancer was denied.
In July 2009, the Libyan government submitted an “application for compassionate release†to
Scottish authorities requesting that he be allowed to return to Libya. Under the terms of a prisoner
transfer agreement signed between the United Kingdom and Libya, Megrahi could have been
eligible to serve the remainder of his prison term in Libya if he agreed to drop his pending appeal
in the Scottish court system.

BP plc and UK-Libya Prisoner Transfer Agreement
In May 2007, then-UK Prime Minister Tony Blair visited Libya and met with Muammar al
Qadhafi. During the visit, BP plc and the Libyan National Oil Company (LNOC) announced a
planned $900 million energy exploration agreement, and Libyan and UK officials signed a
memorandum of understanding calling for the conclusion within 12 months of an agreement on
the bilateral transfer of prisoners. Some Scottish authorities protested that such an agreement
could be viewed as applicable to Megrahi and criticized the London government for failing to
consult with them prior to concluding the memorandum of understanding. UK officials denied the
pending transfer agreement would apply to Megrahi and stressed Scottish authority to deal with
all matters regarding Megrahi under the UK devolution of justice powers to Scotland.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/157348.pdf

 

[lucky number 7]

 

[Cave Dweller]

You are so far off of the mark. Terrorism is not modern warfare for a start maybe you need to read up on history. Guy Fawkes and all that. It is the attempt to change politics by force. War modern or other wise still holds one simple truth the winner tends to be the person that can take ground and hold it. No terror organisation in the world has that ability. Only the potential to change political opinion or the opinions of people.

You are so far off. The Jihad has been active for over 1400 years. You do not know who really is the terrorist out there. I do not want continue in this line where you and me are heading as I do not know to what degree politics is allowed on this site.

 

[lucky number 7]

 

[Saintjay]

You are so far off. The Jihad has been active for over 1400 years. You do not know who really is the terrorist out there. I do not want continue in this line where you and me are heading as I do not know to what degree politics is allowed on this site.

I am not going down the politics route. First you say "That is modern warfare" and "The rules have changed". Then you post the above. At least you now agree with me that it is not modern warfare.

 

[Cave Dweller]

I am not going down the politics route. First you say "That is modern warfare" and "The rules have changed". Then you post the above. At least you now agree with me that it is not modern warfare.

It is. How much did Iraq cost the US?

Read the following. Just rename the attachment to pdf

 

[Cave Dweller]

They call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it

 

[Saintjay]

It is. How much did Iraq cost the US?

I do not care how much Iraq cost and my views on the Iraq war I will keep to my-self. What I do care about is that people from about 20 different nations died on a flight and people died in there own homes who had no reason to die. The truth as to the guilt of those involved may never be known. I do believe that Libya wrote to the UN in 2003 accepting they had a part to play in the bombings. Motives for this included retaliation for the sinking of ships and the shooting down of Libiyan fighter planes in the early 80's. I do not believe it was a conspiracy so that the USA could seize oil some twenty plus years later.

 

[Cave Dweller]

It is. How much did Iraq cost the US?

I do not care how much Iraq cost and my views on the Iraq war I will keep to my-self. What I do care about is that people from about 20 different nations died on a flight and people died in there own homes who had no reason to die. The truth as to the guilt of those involved may never be known. I do believe that Libya wrote to the UN in 2003 accepting they had a part to play in the bombings. Motives for this included retaliation for the sinking of ships and the shooting down of Libiyan fighter planes in the early 80's. I do not believe it was a conspiracy so that the USA could seize oil some twenty plus years later.

Do you mean the the downing of an Iranian airliner by the U.S. Navy in 1988? First by hiding evidence, crucial ones in fact, then convict a guy wrongly for it and then to lock him up and waited till he is almost dead is beyond me. They made some agreements with him and told him if he withdraws his appeal he can be transfered or die in jail trying to prove his innocence. Hard choice for a man that did not had long to live. When the head investigator say the case needed more investigation then conspiracy theories turn to "Hold on a minute" doubt.

Libya was not given much of a option. Apologize or face sanctions. Then this
A BP spokesman told the FT that the company’s deal was ratified and backdated to December 23.†BP plc filed a Form 6-K (Report of Foreign Issuer Pursuant to Rule 13a-16 or 15d-16 of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934) with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) for the period that ended February 5, 2008, stating that “in December, the Libyan General People's Committee ratified the exploration and production agreement between BP and Libya’s National Oil Company, which we announced in May of 2007.†Although at the time many private observers linked the ratification of the energy deal to the conclusion of the prisoner transfer agreement, UK officials denied any such linkage.
In July 2010, four U.S. Senators wrote to the U.S. State Department urging the Administration to investigate statements made by representatives of the UK-based international energy company BP plc. The company reported that, in 2007, its representatives expressed concern to U.K authorities that delay in reaching a final UK-Libya prisoner transfer agreement could delay consideration of a then-pending $900 million BP energy contract with Libya.

Libyan oil production had steadily declined from its peak of 3.3 million barrels per day (b/d) in 1970 due to the deterioration of production equipment and infrastructure related to
strict investment controls and international sanctions. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, Libya produced an average of 1.88 million barrels per day (b/d) in 2008, which officials have stated is currently the sector’s maximum capacity. Since the termination of U.N. and U.S. sanctions in 2003 and 2004, Libya has sought foreign investment to rehabilitate and expand its oil production capacity and expects $11 billion in oil production related investment from 2005 to 2015. Current government production targets are 2.3 million b/d by 2013.

So you see what influence that sanctions has in that apology. It is bad what happened but sending a person to jail without proving his really guilty is also a human rights violation. Money will never bring them back It is really sad to see that those peoples deaths was a bargaining chip for all kinds of political discounts and treaties.

 

[admartian]

They call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it

Mate, I sense so much anger and annoyance in your posts - it's rather disturbing.

When you were called out for being a hater, you provided some run-about excuse which doesn't fly. I let it go, because like I said, wasn't a big deal.

But it's getting to the point where you're just annoying now. I dunno.

Maybe I'm just being too direct? Please don't see this as people attacking you, rather than trying to point out your actions. (no one has posted any personal attacks - unless ln7 has psoted his 'image' :lol.

If you disagree, then ask by posting "am I annoying" thread on here and see. Only real way we'll find out. :lol: (not saying I either way)

 

[Cave Dweller]

Mate, I sense so much anger and annoyance in your posts - it's rather disturbing.

When you were called out for being a hater, you provided some run-about excuse which doesn't fly. I let it go, because like I said, wasn't a big deal.

But it's getting to the point where you're just annoying now. I dunno.

Maybe I'm just being too direct? Please don't see this as people attacking you, rather than trying to point out your actions. (no one has posted any personal attacks - unless ln7 has psoted his 'image' :lol.

If you disagree, then ask by posting "am I annoying" thread on here and see. Only real way we'll find out. :lol: (not saying I either way)

Thats not hate. Just the truth. I do not like politicians as they are **** who will lie cheat, steal and kill their own people for either financial gain or more power. Do you know ROBERT SWAN MUELLER III?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Do you mean the the downing of an Iranian airliner by the U.S. Navy in 1988? First by hiding evidence, crucial ones in fact, then convict a guy wrongly for it and then to lock him up and waited till he is almost dead is beyond me. They made some agreements with him and told him if he withdraws his appeal he can be transfered or die in jail trying to prove his innocence. Hard choice for a man that did not had long to live. When the head investigator say the case needed more investigation then conspiracy theories turn to "Hold on a minute" doubt.

Libya was not given much of a option. Apologize or face sanctions. Then this
A BP spokesman told the FT that the company's deal was ratified and backdated to December 23." BP plc filed a Form 6-K (Report of Foreign Issuer Pursuant to Rule 13a-16 or 15d-16 of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934) with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) for the period that ended February 5, 2008, stating that "in December, the Libyan General People's Committee ratified the exploration and production agreement between BP and Libya's National Oil Company, which we announced in May of 2007." Although at the time many private observers linked the ratification of the energy deal to the conclusion of the prisoner transfer agreement, UK officials denied any such linkage.
In July 2010, four U.S. Senators wrote to the U.S. State Department urging the Administration to investigate statements made by representatives of the UK-based international energy company BP plc. The company reported that, in 2007, its representatives expressed concern to U.K authorities that delay in reaching a final UK-Libya prisoner transfer agreement could delay consideration of a then-pending $900 million BP energy contract with Libya.

Libyan oil production had steadily declined from its peak of 3.3 million barrels per day (b/d) in 1970 due to the deterioration of production equipment and infrastructure related to
strict investment controls and international sanctions. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, Libya produced an average of 1.88 million barrels per day (b/d) in 2008, which officials have stated is currently the sector's maximum capacity. Since the termination of U.N. and U.S. sanctions in 2003 and 2004, Libya has sought foreign investment to rehabilitate and expand its oil production capacity and expects $11 billion in oil production related investment from 2005 to 2015. Current government production targets are 2.3 million b/d by 2013.

So you see what influence that sanctions has in that apology. It is bad what happened but sending a person to jail without proving his really guilty is also a human rights violation. Money will never bring them back It is really sad to see that those peoples deaths was a bargaining chip for all kinds of political discounts and treaties.

What I find unusual is the fact that you proclaim to believe politicians to be liars and cheats and then go and copy and paste all of your information from a Congressional Research Service document. Ah irony, thou art a fickle mistress.

 

[Cave Dweller]

What I find unusual is the fact that you proclaim to believe politicians to be liars and cheats and then go and copy and paste all of your information from a Congressional Research Service document. Ah irony, thou art a fickle mistress.

Well I posted the PDF link and since no one wants to go and read it I posted it here. My buttons on my box is gone for some reason so there is no quote and the thing messes up the formatting for some reason.

 

[smartcooky]

He just blew up a plane. The UK and US blew up two countries.

What... only two??

 

[Cave Dweller]

What... only two??

Three planes and a tower

 

[lucky number 7]

Man...... Illuminati maaannnnn



I mean , the maaaanns out to get us maaaaaan

 

[TRF_heineken]

Cave Dweller, all I'm hearing is : Blah blah blah blah blah, I'm a troll, blah blah blah blah, I'm a half-breed troll, blah blah blah blah, I wanted to make friends on the internet, blah blah blah blah, nobody understands me, blah blah blah blah. I want a threesome with Sean O'brien and Lucky number 7, blah blah blah blah, I need a hug, blah blah blah blah blah...