The Leinster thread

[munstermuffin]

Kirchner was a waste of a buy for Leinster. Ye may try him on wing but he's a fullback and well average at that. I'd love to know who decided on him when Kearney is returning to better form. It's a big investment in an import that wasn't needed. A 2nd row or possibly a centre are where the big name NIQ should've been bought

 

[IRISH RUGBY MAN]

I'm confident enough that you'll be wrong, I reckon he's here to be a starter an will put up a pretty good fight. I think he'll give a lot more to the team than Kirchener.

That's cause Kirchener is a terrible buy and will just warm the bench. Leinster should of either kept their money or gone down to New Zealand and poached someone decent. Gopperth is a good player and I like him, but he won't start the big games. Will come on after 60 and kick the goals

 

[IRISH RUGBY MAN]

Apparently McFadden has put on "4-5 kgs over the Summer" a sign we'll be seeing a lot of him at centre?

I hope he plays 12 ahead of D'Arcy. Him and BOD in the centres this year could be exciting. Interesting to see where MOC plays him

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's cause Kirchener is a terrible buy and will just warm the bench. Leinster should of either kept their money or gone down to New Zealand and poached someone decent. Gopperth is a good player and I like him, but he won't start the big games. Will come on after 60 and kick the goals

I agree with you on Kirchener but I think Gopperth will be rotated in for away games like Boss and Reddan have been in the past.

 

[big ginger 8]

Bit harsh to decide all this about Kirchner before he's even set foot on the pitch yet. I'm not happy about the signing but I'll give him some actual playing time with Leinster before judging him.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Kirchner was a waste of a buy for Leinster. Ye may try him on wing but he's a fullback and well average at that. I'd love to know who decided on him when Kearney is returning to better form. It's a big investment in an import that wasn't needed. A 2nd row or possibly a centre are where the big name NIQ should've been bought

I'm very hesitant to write a player off as a waste before he even puts on a jersey! A few points on Kirchner:

1) By all accounts he isn't on that much money. Keep in mind that the South African Dollar is quite weak in comparison to the Euro so what may pass for a rather average amount of money up here can translate to quite a lot. I've heard the figure â'¬120,000-ish floated about, which when you consider what the like of Jamie Heaslip is on is an acceptable amount for an international player.

2) Kirchner is has been brought in primarily to play during parts of the season when Irish internationals are unavailable, namely the 6 nations, but hopefully also the AI's. He's a good experienced head and with 22 Springbok caps should provide some reassurance for the younger guys around him.

3) We've primarily seen Kirchner deployed in the Heyneke Meyer style of rugby, which doesn't provide a lot of latitude in terms of style of play for the back three. Leinster play a drastically different style of rugby (one which O'Connor is looking to press on with by all accounts) so we may see a side of him that we haven't seen before.

4) Leinster fans (and Irish rugby observers at large) have been utterly spoiled by Isa Nacewa. Here we had a top class Super Rugby player with zero international aspirations available on the fairly cheap due being non-eligible for the All Blacks and the signing being made before the emergence of the current French financial clout. Isa was truly one in a million in that respect. Players like that are super rare, especially now that the French are nosing about every SH player who might be looking at a move. It's unfair to compare the Kirchner signing to Nacewa. Even so, it took Isa a long time to win people over too!

5) We needed a full back to tide us over while our other outside backs develop. Kirchner offers that.


To write him off before one game is remarkably silly.

 

[IRISH RUGBY MAN]

I agree with you on Kirchener but I think Gopperth will be rotated in for away games like Boss and Reddan have been in the past.

Yeah, you could be right. From Irelands point of view, you want Madigan to be playing the European games though

 

[IRISH RUGBY MAN]

Bit harsh to decide all this about Kirchner before he's even set foot on the pitch yet. I'm not happy about the signing but I'll give him some actual playing time with Leinster before judging him.

Agreed, I should give him some time first. But I was only going by Bulls and Boks perfirmances

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm very hesitant to write a player off as a waste before he even puts on a jersey! A few points on Kirchner:

1) By all accounts he isn't on that much money. Keep in mind that the South African Dollar is quite weak in comparison to the Euro so what may pass for a rather average amount of money up here can translate to quite a lot. I've heard the figure €120,000-ish floated about, which when you consider what the like of Jamie Heaslip is on is an acceptable amount for an international player.

2) Kirchner is has been brought in primarily to play during parts of the season when Irish internationals are unavailable, namely the 6 nations, but hopefully also the AI's. He's a good experienced head and with 22 Springbok caps should provide some reassurance for the younger guys around him.

3) We've primarily seen Kirchner deployed in the Heyneke Meyer style of rugby, which doesn't provide a lot of latitude in terms of style of play for the back three. Leinster play a drastically different style of rugby (one which O'Connor is looking to press on with by all accounts) so we may see a side of him that we haven't seen before.

4) Leinster fans (and Irish rugby observers at large) have been utterly spoiled by Isa Nacewa. Here we had a top class Super Rugby player with zero international aspirations available on the fairly cheap due being non-eligible for the All Blacks and the signing being made before the emergence of the current French financial clout. Isa was truly one in a million in that respect. Players like that are super rare, especially now that the French are nosing about every SH player who might be looking at a move. It's unfair to compare the Kirchner signing to Nacewa. Even so, it took Isa a long time to win people over too!

5) We needed a full back to tide us over while our other outside backs develop. Kirchner offers that.


To write him off before one game is remarkably silly.

Fair enough and I'd agree he's not on huge money but certainly nothing small. As for rest I'm sure there are some in the ranks Dardis?? Etc that yes are inexperienced but could do a job at times. When Luke Fitz is back he can play 15 as can Dave Kearney and few others. And while I know Kirchner is capped I just don't see him as that influential figure that likes of Nacewa were

 

[IRISH RUGBY MAN]

Fair enough and I'd agree he's not on huge money but certainly nothing small. As for rest I'm sure there are some in the ranks Dardis?? Etc that yes are inexperienced but could do a job at times. When Luke Fitz is back he can play 15 as can Dave Kearney and few others. And while I know Kirchner is capped I just don't see him as that influential figure that likes of Nacewa were

Agreed, but I'll give him a go first. To be honest, I'd much rather see young Irish boys getting game time instead.

 

[Feicarsinn]

So apparently Michael Bent is out for the first few games of the season, meaning that 22 year old Martin Moore will be starting tight head until Mike Ross comes back. This is pretty good news imo, Moore has an awful lot of potential in the tight and by all accounts acquitted himself pretty well against Corbs the other day. Seeing as I reckon he has enough talent to play for Ireland one day it's nice that he's going to get a solid bit of game time now. Here's hoping he can overtake Bent this year and be getting himself in Heineken Cup squads.

 

[big ginger 8]

This is excellent news and the other upside is that Tadgh Furlong will get gametime. I'm backing him to one day be up there with the best in the world if he's given the chances.

I was at the N'hampton match and Moore did well enough. There were times where Corbiesero came around him a bit and he wasn't able to deal with it but he improved as it went on and when he held it steady, McGrath was able to win penalties and Moore did get the shove a few times.

From the others I'm putting Leavy ahead of Gilsenan now in my pick for a young 7 to come through. Thanks to Gilsenan being injured and despite Leavy being younger (still u20 qualified) he looks more physically ready. Had a really good cameo. Hudson was quite good moreso when he came back on on the wing which I think is his best position. Fanning did well coping with North and he'll be a solid option but nothing special.

Also good to see Reddan back in action.

 

[Feicarsinn]

No pressure on young Furlong so. Considering that Corbs was in my mind the single most important player for the Lions in their third test victory I'm happy enough with Moore being competitive. In my mind he's got two seasons before he'll need to take over the reins from Ross, so it's all about improvement from here. I reckon he'll be a fair bit better than Hagan at that point.

The back row situation is getting very complicated. In the senior squad we currently have Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Shane Jennings, Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Ben Marshall and Leo Auva'a. That's 5 Irish internationals, 4 of whom are under 30. I think we could probably do without Auva'a, Marshall and perhaps Ryan (crap, just short of the required standard and a bit too injury prone, respectively) there's still little enough space for an back row forward with international aspirations. Jack Conan, Dan Leavy, Conor Gilsenan and perhaps Josh Van Der Flier all have the required ability to deserve a look in, but I worry that there simply isn't enough space to keep all of them happy.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Firstly an aside. It doesn't cease to amaze me that Alex Corbisiero is now deemed world class because he scrummaged well against the worst Australian team in a long long time.

I hope Martin Moore grabs the chance that's being given to him. By the same token, Michael Bent's injury offers a chance to both Jack O'Connell and Tadhg Furlong. Reports seem to suggest that Bent will be moved back to loosehead prop.

Lastly, I don't know what to make of the Lote Tuqiri rumour. It's hard to argue his pedigree but at nearly 34 and moving to a sport he hasn't played in three years, does he still have what it takes?

 

[big ginger 8]

No pressure on young Furlong so. Considering that Corbs was in my mind the single most important player for the Lions in their third test victory I'm happy enough with Moore being competitive. In my mind he's got two seasons before he'll need to take over the reins from Ross, so it's all about improvement from here. I reckon he'll be a fair bit better than Hagan at that point.

The back row situation is getting very complicated. In the senior squad we currently have Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Shane Jennings, Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Ben Marshall and Leo Auva'a. That's 5 Irish internationals, 4 of whom are under 30. I think we could probably do without Auva'a, Marshall and perhaps Ryan (crap, just short of the required standard and a bit too injury prone, respectively) there's still little enough space for an back row forward with international aspirations. Jack Conan, Dan Leavy, Conor Gilsenan and perhaps Josh Van Der Flier all have the required ability to deserve a look in, but I worry that there simply isn't enough space to keep all of them happy.

Yeah I'm sure Furlong's collapse will be traced back to the pressure he had put on him by Big Ginger 8 of TRF.

On the backrow issue I expect a few things to change in the near season. Unless Leo preforms this season he will likely be cut or used simply for B&I Cup, I expect Marshall to make a transition to the 2nd row and I expect Jennings to retire within the next 2 seasons or at least move down the pecking order. I also expect one of our 7's to move which would be heavily dependant on gametime of course. Backrow is one of the most attritional areas to play in there will be someone injured at all times in all likelihood. I think players will get a good amount of gametime but the question will be who gets the H Cup gametime and who's not happy to keep learning from the older guys and get starts wich will determine who leaves.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Firstly an aside. It doesn't cease to amaze me that Alex Corbisiero is now deemed world class because he scrummaged well against the worst Australian team in a long long time.

Corbisiero has been on of the top scrummaging looseheads in the game for some time in my mind. He fell off the radar a bit last year due to some bad injuries, but he's a top player. It's dismissive of his previous achievements to say he's only rated now because of his Lions tour.

I hope Martin Moore grabs the chance that's being given to him. By the same token, Michael Bent's injury offers a chance to both Jack O'Connell and Tadhg Furlong. Reports seem to suggest that Bent will be moved back to loosehead prop.

That's interesting. The question is whether he'll be ahead of Jack McGrath or not. While the McGrath hype machine has been working well over the past few months I still have my doubts about him.

Lastly, I don't know what to make of the Lote Tuqiri rumour. It's hard to argue his pedigree but at nearly 34 and moving to a sport he hasn't played in three years, does he still have what it takes?

I'm willing to take the risk. If he's half the player he was during his last union stint he'll be a good asset. Also, seeing as we're likely to lose 3 back three players to Ireland he'd be a handy one to have around during November.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Corbisiero has been on of the top scrummaging looseheads in the game for some time in my mind. He fell off the radar a bit last year due to some bad injuries, but he's a top player. It's dismissive of his previous achievements to say he's only rated now because of his Lions tour..

I'm not denying he's a good player. I am denying that he's world class. He's not as good as either Gethin Jenkins or Cian Healy among the Lions nations for example. He did a good job taking the Australian scrum apart. Should that equate to the elevated status he not holds though?

I'm willing to take the risk. If he's half the player he was during his last union stint he'll be a good asset. Also, seeing as we're likely to lose 3 back three players to Ireland he'd be a handy one to have around during November.

That's what I think too. Perhaps he has some tricks up his sleeve that Leinster's young back three prospects can learn from.

 

[lynam1104]

I'd be happy for Tuqri to end up at Leinster we're looking a little think out wide for the first few weeks of the season and during internationals. Him + Kirchner would be able to fill the hole Isa left to some degree.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'm not denying he's a good player. I am denying that he's world class. He's not as good as either Gethin Jenkins or Cian Healy among the Lions nations for example. He did a good job taking the Australian scrum apart. Should that equate to the elevated status he not holds though?


That's what I think too. Perhaps he has some tricks up his sleeve that Leinster's young back three prospects can learn from.

In open play no, but he's a much better scrummager than the two lads. When we're talking about Moore's performance against Saints that the only really relevant aspect of Corbs' game.

 

[Peat]

I'm not sure I'd call Corbs world class even as a scrummager alone, but he's clearly very good. Forget his anal plundering of the Aussie front-row, he's had a grand total of 2 bad games for England and the difference he makes to our scrum is huge. His showings there are enough to justify his reputation.

There are a very limited number of looseheads in the Pro 12 who scrummage as well as Corbs. I'd be tempted to put that number at zero. If Moore stood against him, that's a good sign. Mindyou, from what I've heard, he had more problems with Kyle McCall than Corbs!