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The IRB Mess Up 2015 Qualification

The latest IRB world rankings ( http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html ) has Namibia at 20. How is the 20th ranked nation being included not on merit? Is that not a fair reflection?

I am of the opinion that Africa certainly deserves that 1 extra spot beyond SA as an automatic qualifier because the Americas (which contains less countries) already has 3 just about assured participation in Argentina, USA and Canada. The rest will then have to battle it out for another spot.
 
Maybe they should just expand the world cup

The only problem with that is that with 1 new minnow per pool we would probably see about 12 blow-out scorelines as opposed to the 5/6 we see in the current format.

I also doubt some of the 'smaller' teams have the depth to play that extra match and remain competitive throughout particularly seeing as the fixtures allready put a lot of strain on smaller teams. Adding a week to the tournament isn't feasible.
 
The latest IRB world rankings ( http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html ) has Namibia at 20. How is the 20th ranked nation being included not on merit? Is that not a fair reflection?

I am of the opinion that Africa certainly deserves that 1 extra spot beyond SA as an automatic qualifier because the Americas (which contains less countries) already has 3 just about assured participation in Argentina, USA and Canada. The rest will then have to battle it out for another spot.

This is a good example of how many people believe the system is legitimate... World Rankings need to be World Rankings. Teams need to play others from a diverse set of regions. Namibia is in 20th for a select few reasons and they are problematic.

1. No matches vs Tier Two opposition or Tier one aside from World Cup´s. Meaning, Namibia´s chances of dropping are vastly different to other teams. Russia has been facing Tier Two sides including Canada, Georgia, Romania and the USA reguarly. Nambia has not. Between 2008 and RWC 2011 Namibia played no Tier One or Tier Two side and full strength.

2. Namibia´s wins have been vs second string teams. i.e in the IRB Nations Cup. Just ask any follower of Georgia or Romania.

3. No matches at RWC 2011 that had any effect on the teams ranking. Russia, in contrast, lost a tight match vs the USA but dropped down the rankings. Russia were far too good vs Namibia in Windhock, winning 30-15 in 2010. Namibia´s November 2010 tour of Europe saw losses to Portugal and Spain. Neither side played in RWC 2011 due to Europe having a far tougher qualification system.

4. Matches vs African teams who, unlike opponents for the likes of Russia stand no chance of playing in a World Cup. Namibia may well be in 20th but Spain are higher yet Europe has two qualification spots with Russia, Romania, Georgia, Portugal and Spain all having defeated Namibia recently. Clearly, its good to be African!

South Africa aside Africa´s World Cup record is 24 matches, 24 losses.

Uruguay, in contrast, has played 7 RWC matches for 2 wins and 5 loses.

The point that South America having less country´s than Africa is important but extremely wrong. I´ll show you why. First open the two following links:

Africa http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/qualifying/fixtures/geoarea=23913/qfdiagram.html

Americas http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/qualifying/fixtures/geoarea=23914/qfdiagram.html

You will see that Africa has 10 countries with Namibia set to face Madagascar, Morocco and Senegal. They will be joined by one other, maybe the Cote d´Ivoire in 2014. From there one will be Africa 1 and one Africa 2. In other words the bulk of African rugby playing teams won´t even play in the qualification process! Another reason why Africa 1 needs to be removed as an automatic RWC team.

The Americas, in contrast has a far more complicated process. It has three regions and more teams than Africa. Eight from the Caribbean region will play, starting this month with the best team from Mexico, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, Barbados, St Vincent, Trinidad & Tobago, Bahamas and Guyana then facing the best from CONSUR B (South America B) which has four teams - Colombia, Venezuela, Peru and Costa Rica. The winner of this will face the winner of CONSUR A which is Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay. The winner of that will then face the loser of the USA vs Canada. Either the USA or Canada will qualify with the loser facing the top South American side to qualify.

Or, in summary Africa has 10 teams. The Americas has 18. South America, the only continent without direct qualification has nine of these, only one less than Africa.

Africa 1 needs to be scrapped. It has proven to be a failure and is anything but based on merit. Replace the whole system with a Confederation Cup like I said. This resolves the problem immediately and if Namibia really are in the worlds top 20 then it would qualify for the World Cup just like Fiji, Japan and Romania. The system would also answer the point of the poster, welshglory who says it should be expanded. Expansion should happen, certainly but with more pools not more teams per pool. In any event expansion is an entirely different topic. This one is about getting the qualification correct, i.e. making sure the teams who qualify actually deserve to be there.

Having Namibia qualify by only facing African opponents is not only comparably unfair to what South America has but it is also not based on merit. There is no record of performances at World Cup´s or in intercontinental competition to suggest that Africa is of the level of other regions. Asia has one with Japan clearly deserving its place. The same cannot be said of Namibia. The solution is not to give South America a place to make it even. Rather, it is to change the qualification system altogether. Somthing that, sadly, the IRB has messed up entirely for 2015.
 
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Are there any South American players besides from Argentina playing in the Super 15 or the NH big teams, like French top 14, Magners league etc.??

I think it has more to do by the amount of players playing in that country and also the amount of spectators watching...

Namibia had a full blown team in the Vodacom Cup the last couple of teams to play vs the Pampas XV and other South African teams, so they are showing a growing number of participation...

To just scrap a team, or their ranking or the method of qualification is stupid as we are all trying to make the game a global sport, and by putting aside African teams who has a decent budget and assist their teams, to the benefit of South American teams, in my view is defeating the purpose of making the game a global sport....

I should think that All tier 2 and 3 nations should first start growing in stature, getting more players and expose them to some games before making a decision like this...

I for one has never seen Brazil or any other SOuth American team play in a 7's tournament apart from the last tournament in Las Vegas, yet Kenya and Zimbabwe are frequently on the 7's circuit...
 
By the way Namibia won't qualify for 2015. Zimbabwe and Kenya will highly benefit from Elgon Cup and job made in young players. Namibia is the past of African rugby.
 
Are there any South American players besides from Argentina playing in the Super 15 or the NH big teams, like French top 14, Magners league etc.??

I think it has more to do by the amount of players playing in that country and also the amount of spectators watching...

Namibia had a full blown team in the Vodacom Cup the last couple of teams to play vs the Pampas XV and other South African teams, so they are showing a growing number of participation...

To just scrap a team, or their ranking or the method of qualification is stupid as we are all trying to make the game a global sport, and by putting aside African teams who has a decent budget and assist their teams, to the benefit of South American teams, in my view is defeating the purpose of making the game a global sport....

I should think that All tier 2 and 3 nations should first start growing in stature, getting more players and expose them to some games before making a decision like this...

I for one has never seen Brazil or any other SOuth American team play in a 7's tournament apart from the last tournament in Las Vegas, yet Kenya and Zimbabwe are frequently on the 7's circuit...

The only ones I can think of are Rodrigo Capo Ortega(Uruguay) and Pablo Huerta(Chile), so yes not many.
 
In the Americas, 4 countries have played RWC: Argentina has 15W, 15L; Canada, 7W, 16L, 2D; USA, 3W, 18L; and Uruguay has 2W and 5L. Not a great record, but surely, the countries that have been beaten by those in the qualifiers and therefore have not played a RWC (Chile, Brazil, etc) deserve at least a qualifying match against a country from a continent whose teams (that play qualifiers) have never won a single gamein 24 games.
 
African results aside from South Africa at the RWC.

Zimbabwe: 1987 and 1991 RWC's (4 point tries)

Romania 21-20 Zimbabwe
Scotland 60-21 Zimbabwe
France 70-12 Zimbabwe

Ireland 55-11 Zimbabwe
Scotland 51-12 Zimbabwe
Japan 52-8 Zimbabwe

Ivory Coast: 1995 RWC (start of 5 point try RWC's)

Scotland 89-0 Zimbabwe
France 54-18 Ivory Coast
Tonga 29-11 Ivory Coast

Namibia: 1999, 2003, 2007, 2011 RWC's

Fiji 67-18 Namibia
France 47-13 Namibia
Canada 72-11 Namibia

Argentina 67-14 Namibia
Ireland 64-7 Namibia
Australia 142-0 Namibia
Romania 37-7 Namibia

Ireland 32-17 Namibia
France 87-10 Namibia
Argentina 63-3 Namibia
Georgia 30-0 Namibia

Fiji 49-25 Namibia
Samoa 49-12 Namibia
South Africa 87-0 Namibia
Wales 81-7 Namibia
 
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African results aside from South Africa at the RWC.

Zimbabwe: 1987 and 1991 RWC's (4 point tries)

Romania 21-20 Zimbabwe
Scotland 60-21 Zimbabwe
France 70-12 Zimbabwe

Ireland 55-11 Zimbabwe
Scotland 51-12 Zimbabwe
Japan 52-8 Zimbabwe

Ivory Coast: 1995 RWC (start of 5 point try RWC's)

Scotland 89-0 Zimbabwe
France 54-18 Ivory Coast
Tonga 29-11 Ivory Coast

Namibia: 1999, 2003, 2007, 2011 RWC's

Fiji 67-18 Namibia
France 47-13 Namibia
Canada 72-11 Namibia

Argentina 67-14 Namibia
Ireland 64-7 Namibia
Australia 142-0 Namibia
Romania 37-7 Namibia

Ireland 32-17 Namibia
France 87-10 Namibia
Argentina 63-3 Namibia
Georgia 30-0 Namibia

Fiji 49-25 Namibia
Samoa 49-12 Namibia
South Africa 87-0 Namibia
Wales 81-7 Namibia

Extremely conclusive numbers. Namibia has always lost and almost always lost by huge margins. Zimbabwe and the Cote d´Ivoire did not do any better. Really, the IRB has messed up the qualification for 2015. I am not fooled and clearly other people using this forum are not fooled either .

Africa 1 will qualify for the World Cup just by defeating other tier three African sides while the USA and Canada will face each other with one qualifying directly and the other facing South America 1. Sure, both North American sides should well qualify but a system which gives Tier Three qualification preference over Tier 2 is utterly absurd.

The USA´s World Cup 2007 draw was very similar to that of Namibia from 2011. The USA gave England a hard match and scored the try fot he World Cup vs South Africa. These matches were not the ones to look at however. Rather, the USA´s games vs Samoa and Tonga which were both loses that could have and should have been wins. Namibia vs Samoa and Fiji in 2011 was a different story altogether. Conclusion: Obviously Namibia should have a harded path to qualification than Namibia but it doesn´t.

In the Americas, 4 countries have played RWC: Argentina has 15W, 15L; Canada, 7W, 16L, 2D; USA, 3W, 18L; and Uruguay has 2W and 5L. Not a great record, but surely, the countries that have been beaten by those in the qualifiers and therefore have not played a RWC (Chile, Brazil, etc) deserve at least a qualifying match against a country from a continent whose teams (that play qualifiers) have never won a single gamein 24 games.

I would like to see how Chile would go vs Namibia. Chile almost defeated Tonga in 2010. Namibia touring South America would be excellent for everybody. Tests vs Brazil, Uruguay and Chile with a midweek match vs Los Jaguares. Thats an ideal June or November tour for Namibia.

By the way Namibia won't qualify for 2015. Zimbabwe and Kenya will highly benefit from Elgon Cup and job made in young players. Namibia is the past of African rugby.

I hope you are correct.

I think it has more to do by the amount of players playing in that country and also the amount of spectators watching...

Uruguay has a solid player base that is expanding and gets good crowds - far better than Namibia. Namibia is actually a poor representative of Africa. The likes of Senegal, Kenya, Uganda and Madagascar all get good crowds.

Namibia had a full blown team in the Vodacom Cup the last couple of teams to play vs the Pampas XV and other South African teams, so they are showing a growing number of participation...

The team lasted only one year. Its gone now sadly.

I for one has never seen Brazil or any other SOuth American team play in a 7's tournament apart from the last tournament in Las Vegas, yet Kenya and Zimbabwe are frequently on the 7's circuit...

This is another failure of the IRB. South America is the only continent without a leg of the IRB World Sevens Series. The Argentine beach resort city of Mar del Plata successfully hosted the 2001 Sevens World Cup and is bidding to host an annual leg. If it is denied I´ll really be anoyed.

More importantly, to directly respond to your point. There is a good reason why South American countries don´t play so much in the Sevens events and thats because the events are organized per region with the Americas as a whole only having the Vegas event. The slots allocated to the Americas exclude South American sides for events as the USA and Argentina play in all of them and Canada are not a core country but are the Americas third representative. The same scenario holding back South America in World Cup qualification is true in Sevens Rugby. Teams have to qualify with the CONSUR (South American) Sevens being how.
 
you cite Chile nearly beating "Tonga" in 2010, that Tonga team must have been like 15th choice, I've hardly heard of any of that Tonga team and 10 of that team that match was their only cap, hardly a good indication how Chile would fare against full strength teams

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/124158.html

It was a weak Tongan side maybe not 15th string but probably 4th(and some 3rd) in most cases, it was a side invited to play in the America's Rugby Championship in 2010 and consisted of mostly domestic and a couple of NZ and Japan based Tongan players. The game against Chile was a warm up to the ARC tournament and Tonga came out ahead 25-24. At the ARC tournament the side also performed relatively poorly losing to USA "A" 20-15, Canada "A" 32-16 and the Argentina Jaguars 28-20(this actually wasn't that bad a result).

These are the results of the U.S.A. and Uruguay at the RWC through the years.

U.S.A. 1987, 1991,(4 point tries) 1999, 2003, 2007, 2011 RWC's

U.S.A. 21-18 Japan
Australia 47-12 U.S.A.
England 34-6 U.S.A.

Italy 30-9 U.S.A.
New Zealand 46-6 U.S.A.
England 37-9 U.S.A.

Ireland 53-8 U.S.A.
Romania 27-25 U.S.A.
Australia 55-19 U.S.A.

Fiji 19-18 U.S.A.
Scotland 39-15 U.S.A.
U.S.A. 39-26 Japan
France 41-14 U.S.A.

England 28-10 U.S.A.
Tonga 25-15 U.S.A.
Samoa 25-21 U.S.A.
South Africa 64-15 U.S.A.

Ireland 22-10 U.S.A.
U.S.A. 13-6 Russia
Australia 67-5 U.S.A.
Italy 27-10 U.S.A.

Uruguay 1999, 2003 RWC's

Uruguay 27-15 Spain
Scotland 43-12 Uruguay
South Africa 39-3 Uruguay

South Africa 72-6 Uruguay
Samoa 60-13 Uruguay
Uruguay 24-12 Georgia
England 111-13 Uruguay
 

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