The General RWC 2023 draw discussion thread

[Jimbo]

To be fair, I think with Borthwick being new and Gatland yet to play a game in his second stint, both teams are fairly unknown quantities. What we've seen recently hopefully won't be what we see come the RWC.

As I see it, England currently have the better players and more experience on the park, whereas Wales have way more experience from a coaching POV. Gatland has a good record at RWCs and arguably had Wales over-performing for the majority of his tenure. Borthwick has very little experience to draw upon as a head coach.

A one-off knock out game, it really could go either way and I'd prefer to avoid Wales if possible.

The big questions for me are 1) can Borthwick raise England's performance levels and get the team playing to the sum of its parts? 2) How much of Wales' previous success was down to Gatland/is he anywhere near as good without Edwards next to him? 3) Will either team even qualify for the QFs?

I agree with much of this but what do Englands parts actually add up to? at some point we probably need to consider we have a lot of pretty solid players to pick between but very few if any which you could even make an argument for being anywhere near a world 15, maybe it's just where we are, hopefully there are a few young gems to be unearthed but when you look at the top 4 or so sides they all have a few.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You're probably right but what would be your thoughts on a England V Fiji qtr final?

To be honest, as **** as we are England aren't much better so if we do face you in the qtr final I think it's far from certain that you win that game. I'd have you as favourites but I'd imagine it would be a relatively close game.

The organisation (in theory), resources and time spent together should make Eng favourites, but I'd be watching from behind the sofa.

No, we're not much better, but I do think we have a better group of players if only the coaches could get a bloody tune out of them. Jones had, but lost, the dressing room and I don't think Borthwick will even prise the door open. My only glimmer of light is 07 where the players effectively deposed Ashton mid tournament, but I don't think our current dressing room has that degree of spine or free thinking.

But if we *knew* what was going to happen we wouldn't watch sport. It could be Arise Sir Warren of Gatlandshire for all I know.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The organisation (in theory), resources and time spent together should make Eng favourites, but I'd be watching from behind the sofa.

No, we're not much better, but I do think we have a better group of players if only the coaches could get a bloody tune out of them. Jones had, but lost, the dressing room and I don't think Borthwick will even prise the door open. My only glimmer of light is 07 where the players effectively deposed Ashton mid tournament, but I don't think our current dressing room has that degree of spine or free thinking.

But if we *knew* what was going to happen we wouldn't watch sport. It could be Arise Sir Warren of Gatlandshire for all I know.

I think it's 50-50 whether we even get out of the group so you won't be seeing me saying we're favourites against England if we play each other in the quarterfinals. I'll fancy us against Argentina but only very slightly, that will be a 50-50 game if it happens.

I do think if Fiji can beat us in the opening game they can really build momentum and get to a semi final. I obviously hope wales get as far as we can but if we go out at the expense of Fiji doing well I can live with that.

 

[BPM]

I agree with much of this but what do Englands parts actually add up to? at some point we probably need to consider we have a lot of pretty solid players to pick between but very few if any which you could even make an argument for being anywhere near a world 15, maybe it's just where we are, hopefully there are a few young gems to be unearthed but when you look at the top 4 or so sides they all have a few.

Maybe. Although I think picking a World XV right now is tricky. IMO, there aren't loads of blindingly obvious candidates and with the exception of France (who have 3 or 4), no one side has several very obvious picks in it. That's partly why this RWC is so open.

Sides like Ireland and SA are stand out teams but have less individuals who'd be clear contenders for a World XV in their position IMO. Also, a lot of players who might have been obvious in the past are no longer at their peak - Sexton, de Klerk and Vermeulen would spring to mind for example.

Personally, I think winning this RWC is going to be more about maximising a decent amount of good resources rather than just individual star quality. England have a punchers' chance IMO.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Maybe. Although I think picking a World XV right now is tricky. IMO, there aren't loads of blindingly obvious candidates and with the exception of France (who have 3 or 4), no one side has several very obvious picks in it. That's partly why this RWC is so open.

Sides like Ireland and SA are stand out teams but have less individuals who'd be clear contenders for a World XV in their position IMO. Also, a lot of players who might have been obvious in the past are no longer at their peak - Sexton, de Klerk and Vermeulen would spring to mind for example.

Personally, I think winning this RWC is going to be more about maximising a decent amount of good resources rather than just individual star quality. England have a punchers' chance IMO.

Punchers' chance? So that's why Marler's in the squad.

Another angle is where the key man risk lies.

Ire aren't winning without Sexton and probably Fra aren't without Dupont.

Who else is totally critical to their team and will be wrapped in cotton wool? No Englishmen, obvs.

 

[BPM]

NZ have some good alternatives, but I'd argue that Ardie Savea is the heartbeat of their team. Same for Hooper for Australia. Kerevi and Koroibete make a massive difference for them too.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pollard is pretty important for SA, they miss a lot of points off the tee without him and those points are crucial for SA.

Whatever about standouts I think we have 9 guys in a World XV convo, although some directly in competition with each other. Sheehan, Doris and Ringer walk in for me based on the past season tbh, probably Keenan too.

 

[BPM]

Sheehan definitely. 'Ringer', Keenan and Doris would definitely be in the conversation but I'm not sure about 'walk in'. Aldritt would definitely be competing hard with Doris and Fickou with Ringrose for example.

 

[AlRums]

Unfortunately, being in the group with 1st, 4th and 5th ranked in the world I'm hopeful but not confident at all for Scotland going through.

But, anything is possible.

 

[Jimbo]

This is the point though isn't it, very rarely will you get universal acceptance that an individual is out and out the best in the world in that position, you will however find that it's a conversation between 1-3 men in that position with little to choose sometimes it's as simple as game plan would suit x, I'm really struggling to think of an England player if I was picking a world 15 tomorrow I'd even confidently consider.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This is the point though isn't it, very rarely will you get universal acceptance that an individual is out and out the best in the world in that position, you will however find that it's a conversation between 1-3 men in that position with little to choose sometimes it's as simple as game plan would suit x, I'm really struggling to think of an England player if I was picking a world 15 tomorrow I'd even confidently consider.

Curry is the only one and maybe Watson (form depending). Also underhill when fit and Lawes.

Ironically loads of coaches would say Farrell but not us fans at large although I must saying his form recently has been class.

For me though if we had all our players on form you'd actually have quite a few in that discussion it's just their England form and some cases club form have been rubbish.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

For me though if we had all our players on form you'd actually have quite a few in that discussion it's just their England form and some cases club form have been rubbish.

Genuinely who?

Without thinking further I'd pick the whole French front row ahead of ours regardless of form.

Itoje of several years ago would have been in the conversation but even if he recovered his peak form now the competition is better and I think he'd fall short. Etzebeth has one of the shirts in perpetuity. Skelton maybe.

An on fire Curry might make the squad although VdF is the current world player of the year so bench at best. Underhill of 4 years ago, probably but that feels like ancient history now. Alldritt probably has 8, 6 possibly depends on what style you want to play. Savea with a strong claim to be in there somewhere.

9 er……

10 Farrell might be in the squad if he could reproduce his club form on the international stage, but he hasn't really. N'tamack probably with Russell as the bench wild card.

Centres. Manu of 10 years ago, but current crop not even in the conversation. Might be tempted to go with a proven combination here so possibly a French or Irish flavour.

Wings. May and Watson in the past. Watson should still be a no brainer choice for England, but Penaud has one spot nailed down and there's plenty of competition to join him. Kolbe possibly, McVdM if you want a bit of muscle. If you're after out and out gas then LRZ might be a punt. Current Watson is probably just outside that conversation.

If the match was going to be a kick fest in howling wind and lashing rain Steward might get the nod, but Keenan's also good in the air with a better all round game.

 

[Which Tyler]

A] It'll depend on your definition of "World Class"
B] the phrase "if we had all our players on form" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I'd say that, on their best form, Genge, Sinkler, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, one of Ford/Farrell depending on personal preference, Tuilagi, Watson and May could all be in the conversation for world class (especially if we use a reasonably loose definition).
Currently, only Curry is actually in the conversation, and beyond him, only Watson stands a realistic chance of joining him there this year. If the stars all align, Itoje and Underhill might get there again at some point.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

A] It'll depend on your definition of "World Class"
B] the phrase "if we had all our players on form" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I'd say that, on their best form, Genge, Sinkler, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, one of Ford/Farrell depending on personal preference, Tuilagi, Watson and May could all be in the conversation for world class (especially if we use a reasonably loose definition).
Currently, only Curry is actually in the conversation, and beyond him, only Watson stands a realistic chance of joining him there this year. If the stars all align, Itoje and Underhill might get there again at some point.

I think we're talking World XV i.e the very best rather than the broader world class which might cover the top 3 or 4 in each position?

Either way, there wasn't a single English player in the fans 2023 6N Team of the Tournament - in either the 1st or 2nd XV! And that's before you add in another hemisphere. Given our results over the last few years that feels about right.

Unquestionably, many of our players haven't lived up to their potential, but there are very very few of the current crop who I would expect to show sustained world class, let alone world leading, performances in future. Even if they did so in the past.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

A] It'll depend on your definition of "World Class"
B] the phrase "if we had all our players on form" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I'd say that, on their best form, Genge, Sinkler, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, one of Ford/Farrell depending on personal preference, Tuilagi, Watson and May could all be in the conversation for world class (especially if we use a reasonably loose definition).
Currently, only Curry is actually in the conversation, and beyond him, only Watson stands a realistic chance of joining him there this year. If the stars all align, Itoje and Underhill might get there again at some point.

100% this. I was basing it on players being on form internationally and between 1-3 players in their position, so a world class player rather than a world 15.

A lot of the players above have been tainted by englands coaches but the potential is there in all those players above.

 

[BPM]

I also think it's hard to shine individually when your team is in a really poor run of form.

With the exception of Tom Curry, I don't think any England player is genuinely in contention to be in the top 3 for their position right now. However, I do feel that there are several that have the ability to be if they have a good World Cup - specifically Itoje, Curry, Willis, Watson and Steward.

Ironically, Mercer's probably in the conversation at 8 along with Aldritt, Doris and Savea. If he had been playing for England, who knows?

 

[Jimbo]

I also think it's hard to shine individually when your team is in a really poor run of form.

With the exception of Tom Curry, I don't think any England player is genuinely in contention to be in the top 3 for their position right now. However, I do feel that there are several that have the ability to be if they have a good World Cup - specifically Itoje, Curry, Willis, Watson and Steward.

Ironically, Mercer's probably in the conversation at 8 along with Aldritt, Doris and Savea. If he had been playing for England, who knows?

Mostly agree, not sure Steward ever really enters top spot conversations, he's great under the high ball, even more noticeable considering how vulnerable England were previously, but that's still pretty much bread and butter for a FB, he's not bad defensively but no means is he anywhere near the best in the world, unless he gets his positioning spot on he's likely to get done for pace frequently.

 

[BPM]

Maybe not now, but if he can continue build his game, I don't see why he can't be in the conversation. He is still very young.

The other consideration is who he'd be competing with. A lot of those who might have been the obvious choices a couple of years ago are definitely in the winters of their careers. I'm probably missing someone, but Keenan and Ramos are the only top contenders I can think of under 30.

 

[Jimbo]

He is but unless your in an eara which is pretty average or weak in your position I think you will struggle to be considered for top mentioning without some USP, he could potentially be considered on the grounds of size for other counter parts but is pretty slow both out and out and on the turn. Tyrone green and bouthier, I'd probably place ahead of him just in terms of raw attributes neither being established, pretty sure there will be countless others post WC.

 

[BPM]

Tyrone Green? OK … I'm a Quins fan and I'm a massive fan of Green at club level, but he's not at Steward's level IMO. Great, elusive runner, but tactically a wee bit naive.

Steward's 'SP's aren't unique, but he is excellent under the high ball and is underrated in an attacking capacity. His try scoring rate at test level is already decent, but he runs good lines and if England can start finding him a bit more, he could become a lot more of an asset. If he maximises those two areas, he'll be there or thereabouts in the next couple of years IMO.