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The Ashwin Willemse TV walkout debacle

mdaclarke said:
If I were Mallet, Botha and Willemese I would keep quiet and just move on. I think that's the best way. asking the ANC's supporters to apologise is pointless and will in all likelihood make things worse. Just forget about it (or try to) and move on.
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That would be the r(w)ight thing to do.

But I think that the accusations that were made, makes this harder to do. The white people are repetitively being bombarded by claims of racism, and we just take it and move on. But to accuse 2 respected men, on such a public forum without any concrete evidence, shouldn't be left alone. At least to give some of the white people a little bit of firepower back at this constant unnecessary bombardment.
 
Honestly, I'm not sure where to from here... There seems to be a fundamental problem of logic and reasoning in this whole event. Now I can only go by what is in the papers and on social media (however I do believe that social media is an alternative reality because if it did represent reality then Bernie Sanders would be US president as he was the favourite on social media circuits) but something is broken.

If this... : https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super...een-nick-mallett-and-ashwin-willemse-20180522

And this...:
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheKiffness/status/998297639413276672

Is being used as evidence to strengthen that Nick is undermines coloured and black people then I'm at a loss for words. You have to swing it pretty hard to make either of those a racial issue.

Please someone from the international community share your opinion or insights on this matter because I must be going mad.
 
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I agree it makes no real sense. However I get the impression that everyone has let off steam and things will slowly return to normal. South Africa isn't an international vacuum and maybe they realised that things like this would damage their chances of entering the Champions Cup and attracting foreign investment to the country, If I was a foreign investor it would make me pause for thought. The ANC have been made to look very silly over this affair.
 
mdaclarke said:
I agree it makes no real sense. However I get the impression that everyone has let off steam and things will slowly return to normal. South Africa isn't an international vacuum and maybe they realised that things like this would damage their chances of entering the Champions Cup and attracting foreign investment to the country, If I was a foreign investor it would make me pause for thought. The ANC have been made to look very silly over this affair.
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You called it from the beginning by saying this is similar to the #metoo campaign. I see that #iamashwinwillemse is now a topic with people airing the past experiences of being undermined with subtle racism. Our favourite rugby writer Ryan Vrede has chimed in with this:

I don't disagree with him that this type of undermining is almost certainly out there. Just like subtle/covert sexism and ageism. These are issues society in general deal with. However Ryan's statement sounds a lot like the religious people I have debated as an atheist. He can't prove it, he can't show direct evidence for it but instead he "senses" or "knows" it. We just have to take it on faith that he is right. He has taken white people out the dialogue by saying white could never understand, effectively shutting out the entire race he is claiming he wants to engage with. The burden of proof is on him and him just "knowing" or "sensing" it just doesn't cut it.

He spends a grand total of 2 seconds mentioning the overt racism displayed by coloured and blacks during this event. This just gets dismissed like it doesn't matter.

However I still don't see how any of this is relevant to the Mallett-Willemse incident? For every video you have Mallett being critical of a person who happens to be back/coloured you can find a video of him being critical of a person who happens to be white. The burden of proof rests with Ashwin Willemse, the ANC, Ryan Vrede & all the people who have "sided" with him that there is overt or covert racism within SuperSport, specifically with Nick and Naas.

Hypothetically, even if we take the massive leap that this event is somehow representative of the general goings on of SA society, then justification becomes even weaker and the sympathy that is trying to be invoked evaporates.

Willemse is WAY more privilege than both Mallett and Botha combined. He is a multi-millionaire because he is coloured. This attribute was the primary reason why he benefited from that Gold Fields deal (https://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-17-gunslinger-in-r61m-gold-fields-bee-bonanza). Not his expertise or ability, but because the colour of his skin (and his dodgy ANC connections). Show me ANY apartheid rugby player in his kind of position before or after the apartheid era. From what I can see Willemse' privilege has far exceeded this. Assuming that Ashwin was shown up in studio by either by knowledge or preparation, what he did was the typical tactic of throwing up the "white privilege" strawman to divert attention off him. This is the ANC's bread and butter, and it's worked again! All logic and reason is out the window, along with critical thinking.

For our international members who don't know how much R61 million is in terms of spending power. It's like double of a very big lottery win. A neurosurgeon earn about R800k a year. It's an obscene amount of money. This is the so called "hero" that people are holding up as standing up to oppression?

There no doubt is people who are standing up all kinds of -ism's. Ashwin is not one of these people. I think people backing this horse are going to end up with egg on their face. The info that has come out so far is painting Ashwin as the person in the wrong but this won't be admitted. A whole bunch of people are too deep into his "plight". I predict that even if he is proven dead wrong, this fact will be secondary in this slandering campaign against all white South Africans. The brush that people like Ryan Vrede is painting all white South Africans with is sickening. This should be a big red flag to our SANZAAR "partners" who just seem to be standing on the sidelines while SA rugby is slowly being destroyed by pure hypocrisy.
 
I have to say, the media is really now starting to frustrate me, and especially News24's sites. It seems like they have a prerogative to support Ashwin no matter what. All of a sudden every opinionated coloured person's article gets a bit of face time on their sites and app and continue with their drivel.

Here's a thought, why don't we hear from someone like Breyton Paulse?? He is also an analyst at Supersport and does the same kind of work as Ashwin with regard to presenting footage and breaking it down. He was also coached by Nick Mallett and are now colleagues.

I also see the Sports Minister is refusing to retract her statement.

Arrogance is the theme of the day here...
 
TRF_heineken said:
I have to say, the media is really now starting to frustrate me, and especially News24's sites. It seems like they have a prerogative to support Ashwin no matter what. All of a sudden every opinionated coloured person's article gets a bit of face time on their sites and app and continue with their drivel.

Here's a thought, why don't we hear from someone like Breyton Paulse?? He is also an analyst at Supersport and does the same kind of work as Ashwin with regard to presenting footage and breaking it down. He was also coached by Nick Mallett and are now colleagues.

I also see the Sports Minister is refusing to retract her statement.

Arrogance is the theme of the day here...
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That's why I'd just forget it and move on. The self righteous well never admit they are wrong. (you see this in the UK with "progressives"). Back them into a corner and they will lash out. The sports minister is refusing to retract he statement.
 
Taking away the background chatter and tangents that surround such matters the bottom line for me is that Willemse brought his companies' sports coverage into disrepute in a very public manner.

Even being hypothetical and working on the speculative assumption that he had a legitimate beef, that is no excuse for doing this publicly.

The company is headed by a black male and there are no grounds for suspecting that anything that may have been bubbling away could not have been dealt with privately in an even-handed manner.

For me the only logical outcome is that there is an internal investigation and irrespective of the outcome of that investigation Willemse is kindly asked to leave for his lack of professionalism in this instance.

And yes, those quoted remarks from the sports minister are pathetic - but par for the course in this modern age of politics where logic and evidence counts for little and where baseless slander is backed up by elements of an incredibly partisan media chasing online advertising revenue.

The minister even let slip the Q word. Oops! :p
 
Bruce_ma_goose said:
Taking away the background chatter and tangents that surround such matters the bottom line for me is that Willemse brought his companies' sports coverage into disrepute in a very public manner.

Even being hypothetical and working on the speculative assumption that he had a legitimate beef, that is no excuse for doing this publicly.

The company is headed by a black male and there are no grounds for suspecting that anything that may have been bubbling away could not have been dealt with privately in an even-handed manner.

For me the only logical outcome is that there is an internal investigation and irrespective of the outcome of that investigation Willemse is kindly asked to leave for his lack of professionalism in this instance.

And yes, those quoted remarks from the sports minister are pathetic - but par for the course in this modern age of politics where logic and evidence counts for little and where baseless slander is backed up by elements of an incredibly partisan media chasing online advertising revenue.

The minister even let slip the Q word. Oops! :p
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The thing is that, there are calls for Mallett and Botha's head because of this incident. Nothing about Willemse and his lack of professionalism.

The investigation showed no sign of racism by any of the parties. So now the question is, was the investigation isolated only to this incident, or to the history since these 3 have worked together. Because to me, they had to take the history in contention, as the outburst by Willemse had to perculate to get to that point if there was genuine beef between the parties, and everyone pointing to Mallet and the past disagreements between him and Willemse.

But now it's like everyone moved on, and it appears that these 3 will be back together on air this coming weekend.
 
If there was in fact no racism involved and it was just a Willemse misunderstanding that caused his sensational walk off then he was:
  • Unprofessional by walking off live on air (As there was no racism)
  • Out of order by referring to Nick and Naas as Apartheid players, if there was no racism beforehand willemse might have been the first one to make racist remarks by discrediting Nick and Naas purely because they were old enough to have been born during Apartheid. He misunderstood the situation and launched an attack on fellow presenters which i feel Naas and Nick has a right to take him up on especially as Nick made a name for himself as a coach after Apartheid.
Action should be taken, either Naas and Nick did something wrong that caused this, in this case Supersport has to reveal this otherwise they are intentionally misleading the public. If the current reports are true and this was just caused by a misunderstanding then Willemse should be suspended for not only causing reputational harm to his co presenters but stirring racial tensions in South Africa.

If Willemse stays it would highlight the hypocrisy in the calls for Mallet and Nick to be suspended by the sports minister and South African public.
 
unrated said:
If there was in fact no racism involved and it was just a Willemse misunderstanding that caused his sensational walk off then he was:
  • Unprofessional by walking off live on air (As there was no racism)
  • Out of order by referring to Nick and Naas as Apartheid players, if there was no racism beforehand willemse might have been the first one to make racist remarks by discrediting Nick and Naas purely because they were old enough to have been born during Apartheid. He misunderstood the situation and launched an attack on fellow presenters which i feel Naas and Nick has a right to take him up on especially as Nick made a name for himself as a coach after Apartheid.
Action should be taken, either Naas and Nick did something wrong that caused this, in this case Supersport has to reveal this otherwise they are intentionally misleading the public. If the current reports are true and this was just caused by a misunderstanding then Willemse should be suspended for not only causing reputational harm to his co presenters but stirring racial tensions in South Africa.

If Willemse stays it would highlight the hypocrisy in the calls for Mallet and Nick to be suspended by the sports minister and South African public.
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I bet you R50 that Afriforum will do something about this...
 
TRF_heineken said:
I bet you R50 that Afriforum will do something about this...
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I would hope Afriforum doesn't get involved with the SS incident if nothing happens to Ashwin but I support them calling out the Sports Minister for hate speech if she does not apologise. Apology or no apology she must be held to account. Same with the Western Cape ANC and to a lesser extent the DA leader.

I'm not sure what to make of the political career speculation. Could be true (ANC have been trying to disrupt the WC for years) but we can cross that bridge when we get there. First Ashwin needs to man up for what he did to Naas and Nick. South Africans who took sides before the facts came out need to reflect on their deeply held biases/racism/perceptions.

EDIT: I'm hoping this has proven to be a bad PR exercise for the ANC within the wider rugby community. They got ahead of the themselves and showed their cards. Their bias, racist cards and it proved to be a hand full of jokers.
 
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for someone on the outside looking in, i have to say Willemse looks bad...anywhere outside of SA. Willemse had a personal work beef with mallett and botha and turned it into a race thing. its the invoking the race card thats made this a mess with every tom dik and harriet now thinking they have a say in this.
if this were a race thing then by all means the lynch mob can be righteous.
but if botha and mallet dont think Willemse was a good player. thats not racist. thats just an opinion.
 
Hmmmn, well, having read the available articles and viewed the video on YouTube, I conclude that the issue(s) are more about clashes of personalities, perceived work ethics (or lack of), and the acceptance/non acceptance of the others background and credentials, rather than it being anything racial (at least to the three people immediately concerned). Undoubtedly, others have jumped in and made it a racial issue - can I say they have hijacked it?

I wasn't in the situation as one of the presenters, I don't have all of the facts, I don't know what other situations that have occurred prior to this incident, and I acknowledge that actions taken/words spoken in the heat of an emotional situation aren't always the way we would choose after we have cooled off/thought it through, but here's some things that could have been done.

The catalyst to the walk off occurred off camera, the reaction should also have occurred that way. The old adage "praise in public, reprimand in private" is particularly apt here, and by choosing to air your grievances publicly and live, you are actively damaging your employer's commercial viability. In short, it's not professional.

It seems that the situation between at least two of the parties has been brewing for some time. We all have worked with people that we have had personality clashes/ found difficult to work with, the adult way is for the two individuals to discuss their difficulties and find a resolution. The employer could also mediate. I'm not saying none of this was done, and sometimes the only option is to walk away, but, as I've stated above, in the middle of a live broadcast isn't the way to do it, in my opinion.
 
I hear you Shaggy.

But I think Ashwin orchestrated this. he's been vocal about this. Naas and Nick have been deafening silent about this incident. A senior counsel Advocate is now investigating this matter and might even have some sort of mitigation/arbitration hearing next week to finalise everything as he will have to give his findings on Monday 11 June.

But like I said before, the broadcaster is the one the will be suffering the most of the consequences...
 
Sanity has prevailed:

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/supersport-finds-no-racism-in-willemse-saga-20180619

Super Rugby
SuperSport finds no racism in Willemse saga
2018-06-19 15:11
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Naas Botha, Ashwin Willemse and Nick Mallett (File)
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Johannesburg - SuperSport on Tuesday published the outcome of the independent review into the sensational May 19 on-air incident involving Ashwin Willemse, Nick Mallett and Naas Botha.

READ: The full Ashwin Willemse studio walk-off report

SuperSport appointed Advocate Vincent Maleka SC, a respected, independent professional, to review the allegations fully and objectively, after initial attempts to resolve the issue amicably and expeditiously by way of discussions with the presenters involved, did not resolve the issue.

Advocate Maleka SC conducted an extensive process and produced a comprehensive 50-page report.


Advocate Maleka SC attended to the following in compiling his report:

- Reviewing the audio-visuals of the live studio broadcast including footage which was not broadcast on the day and of prior broadcasts involving the three presenters

- Conducting separate interviews with role players including Naas Botha, Nick Mallett, the anchor on the day (Motshidisi Mohono), the Head of Production for SuperSport, the Executive Producer for rugby, the production manager of the broadcast (Mandla Ntsibande) and the CEOs of MultiChoice and SuperSport.

- Conducting on-site inspections which included visiting the studio and viewing a live broadcast in an Outside Broadcast van

- He also interviewed and consulted with Professor Adam Habib, an expert with extensive experience in race relations and considered literature on subtleties of racist conduct.

Ashwin regrettably decided not to participate in the review, despite the fact that all parties involved were advised of this process before it started and raised no objections at that time.

Advocate Maleka SC found the following:

- That the conduct of Naas and Nick during the off-air conversation with Ashwin and during the live studio broadcast of the post-match commentary of the match "does not manifest naked racism and was not motivated by racist considerations".

- Assisted by Prof Habib, Advocate Maleka SC also found that there was also no evidence of Naas or Nick exhibiting either intended or unintended subtle racism.

- The incident cannot be explained on the basis of the suggestion or suspicion that Ashwin was, for the most part, not present in the studio when the second half of the rugby match was televised.

- There are two factors which provide a reasonable explanation for the incident. The first is the (mistaken) technical assumption that there was enough time for all the analyst to express their pre-match analysis or commentary of the Lions/Brumbies rugby match. However, the switch to the live broadcast happened sooner than anticipated. Consequently, there was no time for Ashwin to express his views. The panel then agreed, off-air, that Ashwin would be given the first opportunity to speak after the game. The second is that it is reasonable to assume that Ashwin may have regarded the common stance adopted by Nick and Naas as patronising when they insisted that he should thereafter speak first.
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As long as us humans are able to hate, we will always have racism with us. I guess it's a love/hate balance thing of humanity but it'd be inhumane to accept it and that's why we have to keep fighting the good fight. It's like a disease and we probably won't be able to cure it but we have to keep treating it.
 
"Mallett: 'We irritate the hell out of each other'"
Source: https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/mallett-we-irritate-hell-out-of-each-other-20180619

Based on that article and thes quotse from Mallett in a 2016 email:
"They are a real pleasure ... Xola asks very good questions and Bobs knows enough about rugby to produce interesting clips for discussion.

"Unlike with the complex Ashwin, there are no agendas.

"It would be great if Ashwin could be moved ... where we don't have to work together.

"I think he talks garbage, we irritate the hell out of each other and the working environment is just unpleasant and tense.

"I am very happy to work with Breyton (Paulse), Shimmy (Hanyani Shimange) or Bobs instead as, unlike with Ashwin, I respect their hard work and rugby opinions."

Maleka also refers to September 2017 correspondence from Mallett to (another manager) Malcolm Russell, "wherein he indicated how well he worked with other colleagues such as 'X' (Ntshinga), Jean de Villiers and Breyton Paulse."

I am leaning toward it being a case of two employees in a workplace just not getting along (and hating each other's guts) and being in conflict for a long time. I also think it's problematic that there was clear communication to SuperSport that there were issues in the workplace and no resolution has taken place. I see this is now being taken to the Equality court by Willemse, but I don't believe the outcome is likely to change.
 
Social media scares me... I read all the comments on facebook and sites where the article is posted and people still support Ashwin Willemse.
 

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