The All Blacks, are they 'That' good, or...

[The Jones Boy]

... is it more a matter of timing?
What I mean is, the All Blacks are in a transitional period and they have quite a lot of young and inexperienced players coming in to replace the world cup winning glitterati that departed. At this time teams are normally considerably more vulnerable than the AB's appear to be.
So, why are they stringing together convincing wins in the RC and at home, after losing 6 major first teamers from the RWC last October?
Is it because they have hardly played away yet?
Is it because the other teams are all having their own issues?
The Boks issues are obvious.
They need a coach and they would improve outa sight in a heartbeat.
Aussie also have issues but theirs are more systemic (the ARU) and not the coach or the players although they could do with some front rowers and a real no.8 to let Pocock fly at 7
The Pumas are really genuinely improving and they are not far away from being really tough away from home as well as at home.
England have made monumental strides under Eddie Jones, and so forth.
I'm thinking that the yard of space between the AB's and the other teams isn't simply due to the AB's being the AB's, I am inclined to think that other countries (possibly England excluded) are not yet performing on a final approach to their best performances. Other issues are playing a role that is allowing the AB's an advantage in each confrontation.
Perhaps once the AB's get on the road the games will prove much harder with the travel issues, other teams having home advantage etc.
Is it simply a purple patch in Mr Hansen's itinerary and the AB's may come to suffer their own injury issues or form issues.
I know we can only play whats put in front of us but, I'm not convinced the results are down to simply the AB's being in top form when i can see other unions having palpable issues.
What do you chaps think?

 

[Sker]

I can't really say because I haven't sat through all of their games, just 30 - 40 minutes here and there. But I think it's a case of both.

They ARE extremely good BUT that being said, timing is also in their favour (when it comes to the RC) with AUS and SA being in shambles at the moment.

I think we'd have to wait until the EOYT but I have a feeling they are going to smash all their opponents.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Timing IS an issue, the other teams, (well not the Pumas to be fair) are in different elements (and reasons for) of disarray.
It's not the AB's fault they have been a model of consistency in their rebuilding phase toward the next RWC, but we cannot deny that without any disrespect to the primary opponents, they are not at their best or their peak at this time, and arguably, in some games not even close to it.
I do feel that the teams that play the AB's lift themselves in sustained periods and show real quality at times just not enough of it because of the issues in their own camps.
In time this will change.
I have no idea where Ireland are at this time but they have a great forward pack that will keep the AB's honest.
I am lost as to getting an idea of where the French are but they are still a team that can turn a great performance from a situation of adversity
Italy can be honest in the forwards but unlike the Pumas I am yet to see the Italians back line develop efficiently.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I can't agree with the timing thing. England post 2003 fell to pieces for years but the ABs carry on like nothing has happened. It's because you lot don't have any "golden eras", you are permenantly churning out whole teams of world class talent and have a system in place which allows you to replace 1 player with another and not really see any drop in form. You could put out an AB 2nd team and it would likely still beat everyone else, even if the rest of the world was actually performing.

People are saying England may give the ABs a fight but I doubt it, Aussies and Wales in particular have shown how easy it is to score against England if you simply go wide fast enough, our drifting is terrible and out blitz isn't fast enough to nullify it before it reaches the wings. Poor Aussie and Welsh teams have exploited that to great effect and the ABs will do so even more relentlessly. England rarely learn from that either so they could just do the same trick over and over and keep scoring. Quite simply the ABs are untouchable and I think they can win by 30+ points against any team in the world. There simply isn't a weakness to be exploited.

 

[Peat]

Certainly in terms of the Rugby Championship its true. We'll see how true it is when they come north.

 

[RoosTah]

Certainly in terms of the Rugby Championship its true. We'll see how true it is when they come north.

England look like being the only genuine threat for them up north, but at the same time England's victories over Wales, Australia looked pretty workman like in comparison to what the All Blacks have subsequently dished out to Australia, Argentina and the boks.

They'll have the home ground advantage, but NZ Rugby is just a machine with a level of cohesiveness and integration that just frankly doesn't exist anywhere else. England have the critical mass and the cash, but aren't anything like as organised or as committed as NZ to sustain success for any significant period it seems.

 

[GoTheNaki]

Well... It perhaps could be a bit of both.. But let's face it, people expected to beat us after we lost:

The Richity Grub
Carter
Nonu
Smith

The Aussies were salivating about our losses. And I would assume, so was the rest of the rugby world. People did not expect us at this level. They didn't. I didn't. There is literally no way people can twist it, the All Blacks were not meant to be doing this right now. But with the emergence of Barrett over his last 12 games of rugby, and our depth in the sport in general. We don't seem to have loosened our grip, even with our personnel losses. The Aussies were like, "yes, now is our time, they've lost a lot of big players in key roles", and it just hasn't panned out that way. They have had their own issues. Let's face it, they have the talent, I just don't get why they cannot stick something together. So is "timing" really something for this team and world rugby? I don't think so. If these countries with their far superior populous, figured their own systems out, the competition would be insane. England are just starting to get it together now, but their systems still don't promote their talent imo. And as for SA? Their government don't promote anything good for the sport tbh.

I don't want to be "one of those NZers", I'm not. But we are also missing a few players... And then we have players in the background, that are just waiting, trying, to get into that jersey. And they really are fantastically talented players too.

You've got:

Nehe Milner-Skudder. - The guy is just impossible to defend. Would start at 14. No questions.

Charlie Ngatai. - This is one of my disappointments this year in rugby. The poor guy, he just cannot get his head back from his concussions. I don't know if he'll ever come about again. Far superior to Crotty.

Damian McKenzie. - I would have to suggest that this guy will be the next black jersey. I feel that he will become that impact player that Barrett had.

Akira Ioane. - Not if, but when. I think he'll have to be our next 6. I would be surprised to see Kaino at the next World Cup. Akira literally gets through his first man, more often than not. So strong.

Rieko Ioane. - He is 20... In March. What is he going to be? I'm not sure. He is playing 13 at the moment, I watched him this afternoon. Dangerous runner. With the pool of Savea(26)/Naholo(25)/NMS(25)/Ben Smith(30) on the wings, Hansen would rather play Smith on the wing before allowing Rieko, and only Crotty/Fekitoa really in the centres... Does Hansen go for the latter? Maybe Hansen is telling him to play in that position right now.

Jordie Barrett - 19. This is a long-shot. But having him just sign with the Hurricanes(Hell yeah), and having Japan 3 years away, and a small pool of talented centres. We could be seeing him. Probably 2018 tbh.

We do just keep producing talent. And by the next World Cup, we're only just trying to figure things out right now... As much as people might not agree. But our team could be a very different animal come Japan.

 

[RoosTah]

Well... It perhaps could be a bit of both.. But let's face it, people expected to beat us after we lost:

The Richity Grub
Carter
Nonu
Smith

The Aussies were salivating about our losses.

I think the Euro teams might still haven been under the impression NZ would be there for the taking at the start of the international season, but as the Super Rugby season went on most of Aussie Rugby fans (the few of us left anyway) weren't salivating at the prospect of playing the ABs ... the comment that kept cropping up throughout the season was that the NZ Super Rugby teams had actually all gotten BETTER after all the big name exits following the RWC!

So with that in mind most of us were just thinking "how the f##k are we ever going to catch up with this lot" rather than "now's our chance"

 

[The Jones Boy]

Maybe thats where the timing issue is at the moment.
The other countries aren't that fussed at the beginning of the 4 year RWC cycle, the AB's and their Super Rugby feeder and their provincial rugby feeder are all positioned to maximise the small population and harness the rugby quality that churns out.
It's NZ rugby in a bit of a purple patch.
This is the time when journo's like Stephen Hughes refer to the AB's as flat track bullies. The AB's just can't win.

@ragerancher; I don't see it that way mate. My AB's are fallible and vulnerable they are human and as the other countries ratchet up their intensity and quality levels so they will close down the time and space available to the boys and make the possession harder to garner and keep, and reduce the points scoring opportunities, especially away from home.
The reason the AB's haven't fallen to pieces is because Hansen is a canny bugger, he has been drip feeding subs into the mix for the last 18 months , like Barrett and Fekitoa and Faumina and Perenara with others sniffing from a further distance like Sopoaga and Crotty and co. Hansen didn't forget that he was going to have an exodus on his hands post RWC with Smith and Nonu, McCaw, Carter, Woodcock and Mealaamu all bailing out on their AB career. He also thought he would have SBW's on tap to be at least one rock in the midfield.
Woodward moulded a brilliant England side who remain the only NH side to win the RWC (thats how good they were), but he didn't recruit for what came after. Woodward might argue that he couldn't afford to dilute his elixir with young un's and thats fair enough but if you don't bring in the young fellas then you are always going to have a downtime -period of recovery.
Hansen and co. had foreseen this and acted well in advance. They also brought Dagg back from the wilderness. That surprised me, I thought he was done but he has a new lease of life and you can see that the other AB's all get on with him. It's the coaching and Ian Fostering environment the AB management are creating for the players. McCaw had a lot to do with that as well. The players are involved.

@ Roos-tah;I hear what you were saying about the Super Rugby, I was hoping that after almost forever in the wilderness the arrival of the legend that is Tana Umaga would revive the Blues and get the franchise building towards playing some quality rugby and rebuild the pride in the jersey, and to be fair he dida pretty fair job in his first season, if the Blues had been in the other conferences their points tally would have been healthy and respectable but even with their improvements in results and their general play they still finished dead last in the Kiwi conference. Hopefully Tana will build on the last season with the next season.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I agree on the timing part to some extent. The gulf looks wider than it otherwise could be for two main reasons:

i) every northern hemisphere team has severe limitations. None could make the RWC semis on "home turf" even though Oz and SA were also demonstrating severe limitations at that time. So despite the marked improvement in England due to improved coaching it's questionable that there is a consistent threat to NZ dominance any time soon from the north.

ii) all three other RC teams are in some form of transition post RWC, so their level is even lower than it was then. Yes NZ are in transition to some extent, but transition will always impact on the strongest teams least and be disproportionately more challenging the smaller your talent pool of players and coaches.

I agree that NZ are only going to get stronger in the coming years as the likes of the Chiefs kids start to hit 24-25yrs of age for 2019, but I imagine England, Argentina, Ireland, SA and maybe France will also develop.

Finally, we need to keep in mind that some pretty ordinary SA, Arg and Wales sides have managed to compete in NZ for 40-50mins of a game. If England had had a tour of NZ rather than Wales or if one of the other RC sides wasn't in transition then I think this conversation would be very different.

I'd much rather NZ dominance due to them punching above their weight rather than England or France due to their wealth & size. Plus they win with style, so I can put up with this for however long it lasts.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

@ragerancher; I don't see it that way mate. My AB's are fallible and vulnerable they are human and as the other countries ratchet up their intensity and quality levels so they will close down the time and space available to the boys and make the possession harder to garner and keep, and reduce the points scoring opportunities, especially away from home.
The reason the AB's haven't fallen to pieces is because Hansen is a canny bugger, he has been drip feeding subs into the mix for the last 18 months , like Barrett and Fekitoa and Faumina and Perenara with others sniffing from a further distance like Sopoaga and Crotty and co. Hansen didn't forget that he was going to have an exodus on his hands post RWC with Smith and Nonu, McCaw, Carter, Woodcock and Mealaamu all bailing out on their AB career. He also thought he would have SBW's on tap to be at least one rock in the midfield.
Woodward moulded a brilliant England side who remain the only NH side to win the RWC (thats how good they were), but he didn't recruit for what came after. Woodward might argue that he couldn't afford to dilute his elixir with young un's and thats fair enough but if you don't bring in the young fellas then you are always going to have a downtime -period of recovery.
Hansen and co. had foreseen this and acted well in advance. They also brought Dagg back from the wilderness. That surprised me, I thought he was done but he has a new lease of life and you can see that the other AB's all get on with him. It's the coaching and Ian Fostering environment the AB management are creating for the players. McCaw had a lot to do with that as well. The players are involved.

They are fallible and vulnerable in the same way I once said 1/5th of an hour was 18 minutes. The best anyone can hope for is that they have a blinder and everything clicks on a day ABs just have a ton of problems. They can lose the odd game theoretically but you just know that if theyt played that same team again the next week, they would win. England whitewashed Australia but the performances were always pretty close with the Australians looking on top a lot of the time. The ABs demolished them and every team they have met.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Yeah sure they are in a purple patch but in time other larger player base countries like England, South Africa and Australia could come to the fore and be the prime movers in the world of rugby. It may not take a whole lot for these countries to get up to speed either. A change of management, a change of administrators, a cash injection from the IRU.
As you say luck could play a role on any given day, God knows we have suffered from that at critical times in there relatively recent past.

 

[j'nuh]

Pick any 15 New Zealanders.

Best rugby team in the world.

 

[Peat]

Woodward moulded a brilliant England side who remain the only NH side to win the RWC (thats how good they were), but he didn't recruit for what came after. Woodward might argue that he couldn't afford to dilute his elixir with young un's and thats fair enough but if you don't bring in the young fellas then you are always going to have a downtime -period of recovery.

In fairness, there were a decent rake of young guys in the England set up around 2003 whose careers there afterwards were hit massively by injury. Wilkinson's the obvious one but guys like Thompson, Moody, Simpson-Daniel, they were hit hard too, there's a fair few from after.

I could be forgetting things, but one big advantage the All Blacks have at the moment is I can't really think of many guys who should be in the current ABs set-up but aren't because they got hit hard by injuries. There's the prop who retired due to concussions, obviously Carter's had a hard ride of it, but other than that - oh! Freuan. Not many other names springing to mind.

Where as some fairly sizeable lists start building when I start thinking of other countries.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Some of the posts on this thread seem to imply that England could pose a threat to NZ right now. Two questions: what are you guys having and could I have some of it?

NZ is very good, but i guess it's more the rest being bad right now.
RSA showed some warning signs last year (losing to Argentina in the TRC at home, losing to Japan in the opening game) and had several injuries but Australia's case is harder to understand.

There is a lot to say about how NZ has managed their squad in terms of replacements but it is hard to deny there is a some luck too. I mean, while RSA loses their best two fly halfs to injuries and have their #3 and #4 picks struggling to keep up with a 50% accuracy, Australia is desperate enough to call Copper back but NZ loses Carter and sees Barrett have the best season in his life.
If that's not luck i have no idea what is.

 

[Shaggy]

As I said on another thread. I think the timing is perhaps exaggerating the scoreline at the moment, and this is due to the succession planning for the AB's, post RWC.

As it's been mentioned, most of the test playing nations are in the rebuild phase after the RWC, it's just that NZ are better prepared. All of the starting players (with the exception of Anton Lienert-Brown) this year, I think have had some test experience, and those new guys that have been brought in, have been involved in some of the camps over the years, so they know the environment. The remaining experienced players have stepped up to fill the void of those that left.

I'm not saying the AB juggernaut won't keep winning, just that the games will become more competitive again, as the other nations bed down/settle on their playing squads.

Interesting times ahead, as Hansen and co will now rotate in some of the other players for the remaining RC games. Argentina and South Africa will be tougher nuts to crack at home

Some of the posts on this thread seem to imply that England could pose a threat to NZ right now. Two questions: what are you guys having and could I have some of it?

NZ is very good, but i guess it's more the rest being bad right now.
RSA showed some warning signs last year (losing to Argentina in the TRC at home, losing to Japan in the opening game) and had several injuries but Australia's case is harder to understand.

There is a lot to say about how NZ has managed their squad in terms of replacements but it is hard to deny there is a some luck too. I mean, while RSA loses their best two fly halfs to injuries and have their #3 and #4 picks struggling to keep up with a 50% accuracy, Australia is desperate enough to call Copper back but NZ loses Carter and sees Barrett have the best season in his life.
If that's not luck i have no idea what is.

I definitely see England as having more chance of exposing the All Black midfield, but, by 2018, I suspect that whoever is there, will have solidified it up somewhat, so now would be the time.

South African rugby is under the pump, due to a poor economy/player loss to Europe, and the quota system not allowing all of the best players to be picked, and yes, injuries too.

Australian rugby faces more issues than the ones NZ have to face, in that in addition to the drain of players heading north, they compete for players with more codes (rugby league etc), and they aren't the dominant code in their country. They also seem to think spending their money chasing league players is the way to go, where as they would probably get better bang for their buck/better player depth/more competition for starting spots, by spending the money (if they had any) at grass roots level.

 

[ncurd]

Some of the posts on this thread seem to imply that England could pose a threat to NZ right now. Two questions: what are you guys having and could I have some of it?

England are the only other side who appear to have improved since the RWC(that's a little unfair to England they've looked for consistently their best in years), 6 nations grand slams and white washing the Aussies away are serious feats not to be dismissed.

There's realistic chance they'll finish the year undefeated. Performances in the Rugby Championship mean there no reason why we shouldn't go into all three matches thinking about the win.

So it's really a case of if we can't mount some kind of opposition against NZ no one else will at the moment. I think people are clinging to that hope otherwise the top of rugby will get very dull.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Away games are much harder, that could play a big factor
Travelling always causes issues
Hansen and co. have been ahead of the 8 ball in the succession stakes and Barrett and both of the Smiths have been in great form. The pack has kicked on but with Read, Kaino, Retallick, Whitelock, Franks and Coles, there hasn't been anywhere near the massive amount of change near the core of the scrum or the line out that there has been out in the backs.
Woodcock and McCaw have departed but Cane was already being groomed and Moody was already in place at the RWC. Mealaamu also went but in the last few years he was chiefly used as a replacement to introduce the subterranean warthog factor. His absence wouldn't be felt nearly as much as the other two.
The forwards have had a couple of changes but nothing serious it's the backs where carnage has taken place.
So far Barrett has been a miracle and Fekitoa and Crotty have held their own, but neither has been unduly pressured.
When we meet teams who are settled and ready to reach their optimum performance then the midfield will be put under serious pressure.
Trouble is I'm not seeing many settled midfields around the world with the exception of Wales.
Aussie are in change mode.
RSA are blooding young guys and that takes a long time to bed them in.
Pumas are looking at developing their midfield
England are still not sure on their best combination but they are probably the farthest up the road to being sorted.
It may well be that the biggest pressure on Fekitoa and Crotty comes from within, the likes of Moala.
The centres are the area that concerns me for the Lions tour.
Great centre pairings take years to develop.
Nonu and Smith, Bunce and Little, Horan and Little, Guscott and Carling, Mulder and Venter, Fourie and De Villiers, Greenwood and Tindall, these players who are coming in fresh for their countries in the midfield, they need time and games to build the rapport and confidence in the machinery.
I can't help but feel the AB midfield are getting an armchair ride at the moment.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just remember another thing. NZ has played post RWC, only played one match away from home. They had the 3 June internationals in NZ. Then they had their only away game against Australia, then came back to NZ and played against a hungover Argentina and then against a very poor SA team this past weekend.

They still have to go to Argentina and South Africa before they go to the EOYT.

If anything, these to SH teams could still come out on top in their matches, because let's face it, they can't get any poorer than they were now.

So yeah, timing is certainly a very big issue here...

 

[Sker]

Just remember another thing. NZ has played post RWC, only played one match away from home. They had the 3 June internationals in NZ. Then they had their only away game against Australia, then came back to NZ and played against a hungover Argentina and then against a very poor SA team this past weekend.

They still have to go to Argentina and South Africa before they go to the EOYT.

If anything, these to SH teams could still come out on top in their matches, because let's face it, they can't get any poorer than they were now.

So yeah, timing is certainly a very big issue here...

Please don't jinx it, I'm willing to bet we can