The 3G Pitch Debate

[RedruthRFC]

Following the injury to Jack Willis and debate about 3G pitches that it has thrown up, I thought it would be a good idea to create a catch all thread for debate on the topic and as a place to collate information / opinion about them and to avoid the ESP thread getting too many more off topic posts.

I was amazed over the weekend by the number of people staunchly defending these surfaces in reply to a slightly over the top from Brendan Gallagher, although on further inspection, they appeared to come from the kind of people who would defend any choice made by their club come what may or are so blinded by their loyalty they lose any sense of reason.

Having kept an eye out for anything relating to 3G pitch safety for a few years, I've seen complaints ranging from photos of abrasions, players avoiding games on these surfaces, a report stating that injuries are more common on these surfaces and even a possible link between AGPs and cancer, I'm amazed that anybody thinks that there's no need for further investigation. That's not to say that they're the root of all evil or even any worse than grass, just that further investigation is needed and that IMO, the burden should be to prove that they are safe, not that they are dangerous.

I'm hopeful that this become a hobby horse among some rugby journalists (there's plenty who love having a drum to beat) which will lead to further investigation. Sadly, given that the RFU are invested in AGPs and that it would in all likelihood be based upon data provided by clubs with a vested interest, it will be tough to rely on any report involving either.

 

[curtbob7]

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Docu...5/InjurySurveillanceReport2016-17_English.pdf

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport...rlets-forced-cancel-training-players-14689330

Couple of relevant links to get the ball rolling. Im dead against them. Ive played on new ones and old ones and both are no where near as safe or enjoyable as a well kept natural or desso pitch.

I can see why small county clubs would want them as a winter option but for top flight teams it just seems borderline disgraceful to go down the plastic route. The amount of money in the game and we have high level matches being played on the likes of Warriors pitch, Allianz and Falcons etc. Its silly. All the pitches should be the same IMO. They can differ slightly in dimensions but to have some matches played on Desso, some on natural, some on a mix and some on carpets just seems ludicrous.

How many serious injuries is it going to take to curb this obsession with Plaggy pitches?

 

[dullonien]

Well the Scarlets have been moaning about the Scotstoun 4G surface after their semi-final win on Saturday. Sounds like it wasn't watered properly, leading to some bad friction burns. Steff Evans said that it was far worse than the Cardiff Arms Park and Allianz Park surfaces he's played on previously.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44208535

Obviously there's bigger concerns about more serious joint injuries etc. which need investigating properly before too many more sides invest in them.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Thanks to a combination of man flu and a poorly leg, I have far too much time on my hands today! I've compiled a list of the articles I can remember coming across on this over the past few years. I'm happy to edit this post to add others that people would like to add to this list and think that there's merit in collating them in one place.

John Afoa's back after playing on AGPs:
https://twitter.com/John_Afoa/status/998205636470038529

After effects of Glasgow's AGP hampers Scarlets' preparation for Pro14 final:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44208535
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport...rlets-forced-cancel-training-players-14689330

Possible link to cancer:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35585392
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_turf–cancer_hypothesis

Merthyr players' injuries following match on Pontypridd's AGP (caution, have bucket to hand before viewing):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-39416195
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rival-player-blasts-pontypridds-new-12802979

Annual injury report notes increase in injuries on artificial pitches:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43541743

Rob Kearney raises concerns:
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/4g-pitches-injuries-347753

Rob Baxter avoids post injury Jack Nowell playing on AGP and raises safety concerns:
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/18972/rob-baxter-plastic-pitches-bad-for-player-welfare/

RFU / PRL collate stats on AGP injuries:
http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Docu...5/InjurySurveillanceReport2016-17_English.pdf

 

[RedruthRFC]

Well the Scarlets have been moaning about the Scotstoun 4G surface after their semi-final win on Saturday. Sounds like it wasn't watered properly, leading to some bad friction burns. Steff Evans said that it was far worse than the Cardiff Arms Park and Allianz Park surfaces he's played on previously.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44208535

Obviously there's bigger concerns about more serious joint injuries etc. which need investigating properly before too many more sides invest in them.

Thanks for this (and apologies for replicating your link below). I didn't know that there was a need to water these pitches. Does this only apply to all pitches, or just those that include sand?

In terms of the duty of care from governing bodies (national union and WR), I believe that new AGPs must be inspected and signed off before rugby can be played on them. The injuries sustained at Sardis Road are an indictment of a one off inspection, does anyone know if clubs are also provided with procedures that they need to follow before each time that the pitch is used and whether there are periodic re-inspections? It seems that either one or both are necessary or that the initial inspection is woefully inadequate.

Talking of the Arms Park, I read somewhere over the weekend that the AGP there was a factor in Leigh Halfpenny deciding not to sign for Cardiff. Only social media fan chat, so there may be nothing in it.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Thanks for the links, I've added them to the list I've posted below. I'll move it to the first post if many more turn up. Having skimmed over the RFU one, it seems like there may be a problem getting enough data to reach a conclusion with any degree of certainty, although now there is another pitch and more historical data this effect will lessen. Also as noted, this report may be reliant on clubs with a vested interest reporting accurately (one of whom was unable to accurately report their own wage bill).

I can see why small county clubs would want them as a winter option but for top flight teams it just seems borderline disgraceful to go down the plastic route. The amount of money in the game and we have high level matches being played on the likes of Warriors pitch, Allianz and Falcons etc. Its silly. All the pitches should be the same IMO. They can differ slightly in dimensions but to have some matches played on Desso, some on natural, some on a mix and some on carpets just seems ludicrous.

As you say, the business case is clear in the community game, particularly if a club can fund it themselves. I suspect it's stronger than you think in the elite game. Anecdotally, I've heard that Allianz Park receives more use than would be feasible for a natural pitch (I don't know if the same can be said for Desso), also there's the reduced maintenance costs and the reduced need for addition land.

How many serious injuries is it going to take to curb this obsession with Plaggy pitches?

A very complex question. It seems to me that it's reasonable to say that there's an increase in instances of friction related injuries from AGPs, although dullonian's post raises a question as to whether these can be avoided. It's subjective as to whether these can be considered serious or not. What's a lot more difficult is deciding whether other lower limb injuries can be attributed to these surfaces or not. I'd have thought that if anyone could do this with authority, there's plenty enough evidence out there already to put this to bed once and for all.

 

[Thingimubob]

Don't think I've heard any complaints about the Arms Park itself or Allianz Park's pitches - both of which were done by same firm I think. At least I assume it's the same firm anyway, as the Blues decided to switch to an artificial pitch after playing an LV Cup game at Allianz Park!

I have heard one similar complaint recently however, from the Welsh Cup Semi final last year between Merthyr and Rygbi Gogledd Cymru held at Sardis Road in Pontypridd. Both sides (Merthyr in particular) complained that they'd received numerous friction burn type injuries after the game which stopped them training the week after the game, exactly as the Scarlets have said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-39416195

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rival-player-blasts-pontypridds-new-12802979

If I remember right the weather was similar to the sunshine up in Glasgow on Friday, so don't know whether it's something to do with that? That said, again not heard any complaint about the Arms Park when the weathers been nice so not sure if that's the root of the issue? Dunno if Glasgow/Ponty maybe have used a different type of pitch?

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's a fundamental problem with artificial pitches, the rubber crumb and synthetic "grass" will give you friction burns. I think they normally wet the pitches if it's not raining to try and diminish this somewhat.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Don't think I've heard any complaints about the Arms Park itself or Allianz Park's pitches - both of which were done by same firm I think. At least I assume it's the same firm anyway, as the Blues decided to switch to an artificial pitch after playing an LV Cup game at Allianz Park!

A quick Google search says that you're right about the Arms Park and Allianz being fitted by the same company, the system in place at Allianz Park is called SISTurf apparently. The only evidence I recall and could put my hands on again of friction burns at Allianz Park (albeit nowhere near as horrific as seen elsewhere) is the photo of Chris Ashton part way down this article:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39474178

It's a fair point to note that all AGPs aren't born equal, although in practical rugby terms, there are two types - ones that have been certified safe for rugby and ones that haven't. In the course of conforming the above, I was interested to stumble across the following quote:

"World Rugby Regulation 22 is the law that says every pitch must pass tests to ensure there are no problems with energy-sapping, head impact, skin friction or joints damage."

This being the case, it seems that either the test doesn't work or that some teams can't be trusted to prepare / maintain them properly.

I have heard one similar complaint recently however, from the Welsh Cup Semi final last year between Merthyr and Rygbi Gogledd Cymru held at Sardis Road in Pontypridd. Both sides (Merthyr in particular) complained that they'd received numerous friction burn type injuries after the game which stopped them training the week after the game, exactly as the Scarlets have said.

Thanks, I've added the Wales Online link to the BBC one that I had listed above.

If I remember right the weather was similar to the sunshine up in Glasgow on Friday, so don't know whether it's something to do with that? That said, again not heard any complaint about the Arms Park when the weathers been nice so not sure if that's the root of the issue? Dunno if Glasgow/Ponty maybe have used a different type of pitch?

Quite possibly, although it's also possible that these pitches are equally safe if looked after properly. Again, this only deals with the incidence of friction based injuries, not the possible increase in joint injuries (which again, could easily be pitch dependant).

 

[RedruthRFC]

It's a fundamental problem with artificial pitches, the rubber crumb and synthetic "grass" will give you friction burns. I think they normally wet the pitches if it's not raining to try and diminish this somewhat.

There's a pretty strong case that says that despite World Rugby's assurances to the contrary, you're right, but it seems strange that as Thingimubob points out, there are no cases of this we know of at the Arms Park and only one minor one at Allianz Park.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Players post about friction burns after playing at Allianz all the time. Not Sarries players, mind.... but there's an obvious reason as to why that would be.

It's the pro/con about them, there's no give in the surface.

 

[stus768]

I would be interested to know if Worcester's pitch is any better. Doesn't have rubber crumb but uses coconut fibres instead.

https://warriors.co.uk/2016/04/07/warriors-to-roll-out-artificial-grass-pitch/

 

[ratsapprentice]

You ever felt a coconut?

I'd put that right up there as a weapon of choice for inflicting friction burns.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

We have had abnormal weather up here for some weeks. I'm as brown as a raisin and the old Volcano in Edinburgh caught fire because it was so dry.

I think it will be exceptional weather combined by a lack of foresight by the Warriors in readying their pitch. Quite embarrassing for the SRU and something I'm sure they will avoid repeating.

 

[Thingimubob]

We have had abnormal weather up here for some weeks. I'm as brown as a raisin and the old Volcano in Edinburgh caught fire because it was so dry.

I think it will be exceptional weather combined by a lack of foresight by the Warriors in readying their pitch. Quite embarrassing for the SRU and something I'm sure they will avoid repeating.

Yeah I lean towards this being the issue myself as well, rather than it being an overall constant problem with the pitches.

I suppose it remains to be seen what the long term affects of having these kinda of pitches become more common - especially is regards to joint injuries. Wouldn't say that I've noticed much of a change in the amount / type of injuries suffered by the Blues squad since the introduction of the artificial pitch. If anything the Blues have had much better luck with injuries this season compared to the other Welsh regions, not that the pitch has anything to do with that either way.

The biggest difference however is the quality of the games played at the Arms Park has definitely much improved when compared to the quagmire we used to have with the grass pitch!

 

[RedruthRFC]

Just stumbled across an article saying that Pontypridd ended up replacing the 3G pitch that was causing the problems reported above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40618602

I hope they received significant compensation from whoever was responsible for the fitting of the original one.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[RedruthRFC]

I see that the RFU have given on their programme of building AGPs, citing safety concerns as one of the reasons. To be fair to AGPs, I suspect that these concerns are an excuse to reduce capital expenditure on something that by the sounds of it has been mismanaged and failed to deliver the returns projected.