Super Rugby Semi-Final: Waratahs vs Highlanders

[RoosTah]

100% Agree.

People reading some posts might generalize and think that "all" kiwis have chips on our shoulders

Well the weight of evidence on this forum alone - with Kiwi being somewhat alone in his one-eyed sweeping generalizations about Australian sports culture - suggests otherwise.

It is annoying seeing the cognitive distance at play all the same however. Poor behaviour by kiwi fans and athletes is summarily dismissed as being a few bad apples, whilst Australian ones are somehow evidence of a uniquely bad culture. That's prejudice for you though.

No offence Kiwi, but the point on Mils really shows how unbalanced you are on this. For you Genia getting a bit touchy in an interview demonstrates what a prat he is and how bad our culture is, but Mils getting arrested for sexual assault is a case apparently worthy of applying benefit of the doubt.

Do you not see how inconsistently you are applying your rules?

 

[nickdnz]

Uhhh. This thread.

I think we can agree on something, young men who achieve a lot in a sporting environment often become self-important tossers. Saying it's more prevalent in one nationality is ridiculous, especially when it is not based on first hand experience.

Our experiences of many of these athletes are through media - and I agree that both Australian and New Zealand media reports on the bad behavior of Ozzy athletes more proportionately than Kiwi athletes.

But before casting the first stone Kiwi, lets look at Sivivatu, Cowan, Moala, Thomson, Savea, Muliaina, Robin Brooke, Bachop. All have faced assault charges - and as a nation we probably don't shine as much attention on it as we should.

In England it is no different either - Tyson Fury just spent some time in jail but it seems no one is bothering reporting it. Chisora is a thug. Seems half the Premier League are sexual deviants.

So yeah, there may be some ********s in Australian sport. In certain codes there seems to be a bad culture. But typifying it as an Australian problem is just unfair. More over it paints kiwi's as unsporting, self-righteous tossers.

 

[Kiwi_]

I never made this a Kiwi vs Australian argument. I said the top end Australian sportsmen are one eyed, arrogant and show bad sportsmanship, which has resulted in a poor sporting culture that's ruined the spirit of the game.

You have all blown what I said out of proportion or taken it the wrong way.

 

[RoosTah]

100%. What's funny is that this all started because essentially Kearns was a pretty poor loser in the semi final, but then many passionate supporters are pretty bad losers. Heck in South Africa recently at their 1995 RWC Reunion they were attacking certain sections of the NZ media and rugby community for their lack of class and grace over the whole Suzy thing. That said, qlders are the worst - the courier mail proved that last year

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I agree, Nick. Every nation has their sporting personalities who do anything from embarass to disgrace both themselves and by virtue of being ambassadors (whether they like it or not) of the teams they play for and their countries. No point in trying to say "ths country is worse or that country is worse". We can all cherry pick any number of 'supporting' instances of bad sportsmanship from any country.. but it'd be totally pointless as it'd be a case of the pot calling the kettle black every time.

Lets face it, these are young guys inclined to doing what young guys get up too, earning disproportionately large amounts of cash in relation to their compatriates (especially their peers), with the media on their cases all while having too much time on their hands, having to deal with being put on pedastals and with the pressure on them of having the expectation to perform and be perfect all the time. It's a wonder we don't have more cases of players going off the handle really.

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I never made this a Kiwi vs Australian argument. I said the top end Australian sportsmen are one eyed, arrogant and show bad sportsmanship, which has resulted in a poor sporting culture that's ruined the spirit of the game.

You have all blown what I said out of proportion or taken it the wrong way.

So how is calling ALL Aussie sportsmen arrogant etc not a generalisation? And even if it was the case that you could say that on the back of a set amount of instancies does is it at all fair to focus on Aussie sportsmen and leave out Kiwi, Saffa, English, Indian etc etc sportsmen? If not then you are indeed making this an argument of generalisations and since you are a Kiwi and attacking Aussies..

 

[Kiwi_]

"Generalizations" "Stereotypes".

Often overused cliched words when someone is making an example of something being common.

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I agree, Nick. Every nation has their sporting personalities who do anything from embarass to disgrace both themselves and by virtue of being ambassadors (whether they like it or not) of the teams they play for and their countries. No point in trying to say "ths country is worse or that country is worse". We can all cherry pick any number of 'supporting' instances of bad sportsmanship from any country.. but it'd be totally pointless as it'd be a case of the pot calling the kettle black every time.

Lets face it, these are young guys inclined to doing what young guys get up too, earning disproportionately large amounts of cash in relation to their compatriates (especially their peers), with the media on their cases all while having too much time on their hands, having to deal with being put on pedastals and with the pressure on them of having the expectation to perform and be perfect all the time. It's a wonder we don't have more cases of players going off the handle really.

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So how is calling ALL Aussie sportsmen arrogant etc not a generalisation? And even if it was the case that you could say that on the back of a set amount of instancies does is it at all fair to focus on Aussie sportsmen and leave out Kiwi, Saffa, English, Indian etc etc sportsmen? If not then you are indeed making this an argument of generalisations and since you are a Kiwi and attacking Aussies..

Sigh if you want to nitpick words. What ever. I said in another post not all are like that. It's stupid to assume I literally meant ALL Australian sportsmen.. come on, we're older than that.

 

[RoosTah]

I never made this a Kiwi vs Australian argument. I said the top end Australian sportsmen are one eyed, arrogant and show bad sportsmanship, which has resulted in a poor sporting culture that's ruined the spirit of the game.

You have all blown what I said out of proportion or taken it the wrong way.

Mate, it's not that I haven't understood your argument, it's just that we don't agree with it.

I'm going in circles with you here so this is the last time I'll bring it up, but you've never once addressed the very basic point of causation here; explain to me how it is the "culture" that produces the bad "arrogant" people, whilst the more numerous good people at the top of Aussie sport are some how not a product of that same culture?

I notice you never once contended with my assertion that our highest profile sports people like Wayne Bennet, Laurie Daley, Mal Meninga, Peter Sterling, David Pocock, Jonathan Thurston, Greg Inglis (all of whom have a higher profile than Phil Kearns) are in fact very good and decent human beings. Again, you can't have it both ways - the "culture" is responsible for both.

This in some ways is a little like talking to the religious about god; so often everything bad in the world is all man's fault, but if something good happens it's all the man upstairs and some how that's supposed to make sense.

 

[Icemn]

fine line between arrogance and confidence... the Aussie accent doesn't really do them any favors though...

 

[Kiwi_]

Mate, it's not that I haven't understood your argument, it's just that we don't agree with it.

I'm going in circles with you here so this is the last time I'll bring it up, but you've never once addressed the very basic point of causation here; explain to me how it is the "culture" that produces the bad "arrogant" people, whilst the more numerous good people at the top of Aussie sport are some how not a product of that same culture?

I notice you never once contended with my assertion that our highest profile sports people like Wayne Bennet, Laurie Daley, Mal Meninga, Peter Sterling, David Pocock, Jonathan Thurston, Greg Inglis (all of whom have a higher profile than Phil Kearns) are in fact very good and decent human beings. Again, you can't have it both ways - the "culture" is responsible for both.

This in some ways is a little like talking to the religious about god; so often everything bad in the world is all man's fault, but if something good happens it's all the man upstairs and some how that's supposed to make sense.

I can honestly tell you, I have never heard of most of those people (NRL is not a big deal here, maybe in Auckland, most people don't care about it). I said Internationally you're poorly represented. People are talking to me like I'm being racist.

It's my view, it's what I've seen, how a lot of them have acted and my thoughts on their actions and words. We're not going to agree, let's move on.

 

[RoosTah]

I can honestly tell you, I have never heard of most of those people. I said Internationally you're poorly represented.

It's my view, it's what I've seen, how a lot of them have acted and my thoughts on their actions and words. We're not going to agree, let's move on.

If you have never heard of those people then you know about 0.01 percent of Australia's top profile sports people and frankly your argument sounds extremely ill informed. The point about internationally exposed is a cop out too, because it's you who keeps talking about culture, and that cuts across everything.

Quick question, but do you have any idea how bloody tiny Rugby is in the Australian sporting landscape? I raise it because if Phil Kearns is all you know, then I'd guarantee you more people in NZ know who he is than Australians do.

I agree we're at an impasse here, but I also note you never once made a remotely reasonable case for the "culture argument", having never addressed in any of your many posts the fundamental issue of causation.

 

[Kiwi_]

If you have never heard of those people then you know about 0.01 percent of Australia's top profile sports people and frankly your argument sounds extremely ill informed. The point about internationally exposed is a cop out too, because it's you who keeps talking about culture, and that cuts across everything.

Quick question, but do you have any idea how bloody tiny Rugby is in the Australian sporting landscape? I raise it because if Phil Kearns is all you know, then I'd guarantee you more people in NZ know who he is than Australians do.

It's not ill informed when we have to put up with it on our TV week in week out. I turn over from Kearns BS, to Shane Warnes BS to that tennis kids BS all in the space of 5 minutes, these are great examples of what my argument and view is about.

Just because you say my opinion is ill informed does not make it true.

Just because I don't care enough about NRL does not mean I have no knowledge in other areas of sports. I have given enough examples of high profile Australian sportsmen and pundits acting arrogant and bias to make the argument it's more common that what it should be and it looks like the sporting culture is bad. That's the fact of this discussion. Now I'm finished because all we're doing is arguing back and fourth.

 

[RoosTah]

Kiwi, you're allowed an opinion, but basing you opinion on a small sample size of sports Australians play that kiwis get exposure to means you're simply not qualified to talk about our sports culture.

You can hate Warne and Kearns all you like. But if you know nothing about the AFL and NRL and won't give credit to guys like David Pocock and Izzy Folau in the union, then you simply don't have the data to form a FAIR AND REASONABLE position on our "sports culture".

Your comments have frankly been bigoted and offensive, and the fact that you refuse to concede you might be wrong on the culture point when you have such little exposure to 90% of it is why I have kept this going with you.

 

[Kiwi_]

I'm done SANZAR. None of my comments were offensive, if you think they were, you need thicker skin.

 

[RoosTah]

I'm done SANZAR. None of my comments were offensive, if you think they were, you need thicker skin.

We are done. You never once applied even rudimentary logic and every post was filled with bigotry and prejudice without ever justifying a single thing you said and you're the only person here who hasn't been able to see how ridiculous your argument has been.

 

[Kiwi_]

We are done. You never once applied even rudimentary logic and every post was filled with bigotry and prejudice without ever justifying a single thing you said and you're the only person here who hasn't been able to see how ridiculous your argument has been.

You sound like you should be involved in a Martin Luthar King rally.

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I will just add these as some final examples, stuff like this has just shaped my view and opinion over the YEARS. It's tiresome I know and I won't raise the point again, obviously it's not a good subject here and an unpopular topic and we're better of talking about other things so I will move on;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-10-08/another-australian-apologies-for-poor-sportsmanship/2290472

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arc...a-national-trait/story-fn66fst6-1225935679989

 

[RoosTah]

For the record, this entire tangent got started because of how worked up you were over a couple silly comments from Phil Kearns. So yeah, what was that about thin skin.

 

[ruggerbugger]

It's fine to reach an impasse.

It's not fine to think you're entitled to your own facts and omit key information, and when you get confronted with that omitted information just shrug your shoulders and say "welp, based on 3 examples that I personally saw on the telly, you're all a bunch of bad eggs" and coil into a shell.

There are a multitude of things you haven't addressed Kiwi, because you know what Sanzar is getting at. If you viewed some of our guys in isolation then you might get the impression New Zealand is a nation of wife bashers. Once Were Warriors and all that. Not sure what the stats are like now, but our domestic violence stats were among the worst in the world, and our sports people were at the forefront of poor examples being set.

Being competitive and to HATE losing to your brother nations is fine - it's fun. But level of hatred our media spins is way out of control when it comes to Australia. We are obsessed with them because of isolated things like the underarm incident, or something in the paper a few months/years/whatever ago. Kearns was over the top on that night, but a lot of everything else he says seems pretty tongue in cheek to me.

Back on topic, I'm glad the Highlanders proved a few doubters wrong (including me) and made this an all Kiwi classic! First time since 2006.

 

[Kiwi_]

It's fine to reach an impasse.

It's not fine to think you're entitled to your own facts and omit key information, and when you get confronted with that omitted information just shrug your shoulders and say "welp, based on 3 examples that I personally saw on the telly, you're all a bunch of bad eggs" and coil into a shell.

There are a multitude of things you haven't addressed Kiwi, because you know what Sanzar is getting at. If you viewed some of our guys in isolation then you might get the impression New Zealand is a nation of wife bashers. Once Were Warriors and all that. Not sure what the stats are like now, but our domestic violence stats were among the worst in the world, and our sports people were at the forefront of poor examples being set.

Being competitive and to HATE losing to your brother nations is fine - it's fun. But level of hatred our media spins is way out of control when it comes to Australia. We are obsessed with them because of isolated things like the underarm incident, or something in the paper a few months/years/whatever ago. Kearns was over the top on that night, but a lot of everything else he says seems pretty tongue in cheek to me.

Back on topic, I'm glad the Highlanders proved a few doubters wrong (including me) and made this an all Kiwi classic! First time since 2006.

I'm a huge critic of a lot of New Zealand society and sporting culture, I do feel sorry for Mils though, because I know the English team have a lot of issues similar to his one with women and it's a common allegations in UK, often turning out untrue and judging by Mils character, it goes everything against it. As I said, this was never an NZ vs Aussie thing, so I have no idea why you guys continue to try make it one.

I might have generalized a little too much and people took it very literal. I should have been more specific, that there are A LOT of Australian sportsmen who represent their country poorly and a lot of poor pundits that make it almost unbearable to listen to them.

I don't think I've been unreasonable at all. I know we are now in the day and age of "tolerance" and "racial" acceptation, so everyone is so confrontational and butthurt when their Nation is slightly criticized (which I wasn't even doing). Once again, I was pointing out sportsmen, so stop taking it like I'm attacking your "race" or country.

Credit where credit is due, criticism where criticism due and if you're offended, harden up, I'm not the first person on this planet to share this view.

 

[ruggerbugger]

Cheers for the abusive rep comment. "Brown nose psycho." Awesome. Kinda lose credibility for typing out what seemed like a reasoned response when you act like an odious little creep away from the forum eye. Did you send the same nonsense through to Sanzar and the others?

Good for you admitting that you "generalized a little too much." I'm happy that by Post 258 you're able to see that.

p.s: for the record, to answer your reputation comment, I live on the same side of the ditch as you. But you were being ridiculous, and in the nicest way possible - we have been trying to help you see that. Folks like Veitchy, The Herald, Stuff, any media outlet we have take our competitiveness with Aus too far. No offense but I think it's people like you who buy into it too much. Anyway, I'm done so argue away all you like lol.

 

[Kiwi_]

Cheers for the abusive rep comment. "Brown nose psycho." Awesome. Kinda lose credibility for typing out what seemed like a reasoned response when you act like an odious little creep away from the forum eye. Did you send the same nonsense through to Sanzar and the others?

Good for you admitting that you "generalized a little too much." I'm happy that by Post 258 you're able to see that.

p.s: for the record, to answer your reputation comment, I live on the same side of the ditch as you. But you were being ridiculous, and in the nicest way possible - we have been trying to help you see that. Folks like Veitchy, The Herald, Stuff, any media outlet we have take our competitiveness with Aus too far. No offense but I think it's people like you who buy into it too much. Anyway, I'm done so argue away all you like lol.

You left the part out where I called you MotheRucker1.