Super Rugby Pacific (2022)

[Kiwiwomble]

A bit of common sense that is frankly an embarrassment for the Aus union.

Dave Rennie: Wallaby coach urges Australia to stay in Super Rugby Pacific

Dave Rennie believes facing New Zealand sides is vital for his players' development and urged Australian officials not to abandon Super Rugby Pacific.

www.planetrugby.com

Surely if the issue is TV money then that is a reflection on the ineptitude of the Aus union? The NZ union won't have been central to money negotiations between the Aus union and broadcasters will it? Is the Aus union suggesting the NZ union should be a charity that exists to subsidise the Aus union?

thats how it use to be, each union negotiated their tv deal and then it all went into a common pool, and that was part of the idea that it was one comp...but now NZR is saying we want to dominate and have all the money we bring...which is fair enough if we're actually willing to let them go when theyve had enough


this is where i think we're getting it wrong, we're like the rich kid that got the video game no one else had....and got good at it because we play it more than everyone else...and are now shitty the other kids dont want to play with us

if we want to be able to keep playing rugby with the rest of the kids...we're going to have to stop rubbing the fact we're awesome in everyones faces...or they'll just go play the sports theyre good at....or we need to accept we'll have the NPC like aussie has the AFL....we're great but no one else plays it

we cant have it both ways

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

thats how it use to be, each union negotiated their tv deal and then it all went into a common pool, and that was part of the idea that it was one comp...but now NZR is saying we want to dominate and have all the money we bring...which is fair enough if we're actually willing to let them go when theyve had enough


this is where i think we're getting it wrong, we're like the rich kid that got the video game no one else had....and got good at it because we play it more than everyone else...and are now shitty the other kids dont want to play with us

if we want to be able to keep playing rugby with the rest of the kids...we're going to have to stop rubbing the fact we're awesome in everyones faces...or they'll just go play the sports theyre good at....or we need to accept we'll have the NPC like aussie has the AFL....we're great but no one else plays it

we cant have it both ways

Yeah, but this is all about player retention, not greed. Same reason why NZ line up so many exhibition matches. Every concession NZ give to a failing union like Aus is a step towards an AB playing overseas and a decline in the strength of the national side.

Where NZ have got it wrong I think is in letting the bridges be burnt with Japan. Similar, timezone, loads of TV and sponsorship money and a standard not far off Rebels, Force, Drua and Pacifika.

It's true NZ don't have many cards to play given their geography. But if the door to Japan is still open as a plan B I'd be calling Australia's bluff and let their union vandalise the quality of their domestic game if they choose to do so. When a partner starts behaving erratically or immature then I think you should be avoiding any sort of concession that might encourage further tantrums and blackmail down the line.

 

[Derpus]

Yeah, but this is all about player retention, not greed. Same reason why NZ line up so many exhibition matches. Every concession NZ give to a failing union like Aus is a step towards an AB playing overseas and a decline in the strength of the national side.

Where NZ have got it wrong I think is in letting the bridges be burnt with Japan. Similar, timezone, loads of TV and sponsorship money and a standard not far off Rebels, Force, Drua and Pacifika.

It's true NZ don't have many cards to play given their geography. But if the door to Japan is still open as a plan B I'd be calling Australia's bluff and let their union vandalise the quality of their domestic game if they choose to do so. When a partner starts behaving erratically or immature then I think you should be avoiding any sort of concession that might encourage further tantrums and blackmail down the line.

Even with SR and general world dominance rugby viewing and participation figures are on the wane in NZ. How many times can we watch the Saders pump the Blues or Hurricanes and still be entertained?

They don't want Aussie involved in SR because they think it's the best thing for us. They want it because the reality is NZ is a tiny, saturated market and **** is on the slide big time - they are realistically 5-10 years behind Australia but on the exact same trajectory in terms of finances, interest and player retention.

The door to Japan was never open. Losing to the 'Saders doesn't fit in with their corporate dong swinging model.

And lets talk about partners behaving erratically:
- flogged off SARU and Argentina
- demanded we cut three teams
- approached our franchises directly without consent
- abandoned a sold out (90k seater) test match after we had made accommodations to play them twice in a row in NZ.

What did the 'erratic and immature' RA do? call them out. Name one action they've taken that has been immature or erratic?

NZRU are fuckwits. Pay more attention.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Even with SR and general world dominance rugby viewing and participation figures are on the wane in NZ. How many times can we watch the Saders pump the Blues or Hurricanes and still be entertained? They don't want Aussie involved in SR because they think it's the best thing for us. They want it because the reality is NZ is a tiny, saturated market and **** is on the slide big time - they are realistically 5-10 years behind Australia but on the exact same trajectory in terms of finances, interest and player retention. The door to Japan was never open. Losing to the 'Saders doesn't fit in with their corporate dong swinging model. And lets talk about partners behaving erratically: - flogged off SARU and Argentina - demanded we cut three teams - approached our franchises directly without consent - abandoned a sold out (90k seater) test match after we had made accommodations to play them twice in a row in NZ. What did the 'erratic and immature' RA do? call them out. Name one action they've taken that has been immature or erratic? NZRU are fuckwits. Pay more attention.

If NZ are so messed up and a fifth of the population of Australia, what does it say about RA that Australia's TV money is less than a third of NZs? I don't know how anyone with a grasp of mathematics can say the NZ union are the one messing up more (even if I think they were muppets to look a gift horse in the mouth with Japan).

I've been clear I think RAs hissy fit the week before the SR final was both immature and erratic, leading to their national team coach feeling the need to publicly point out how boneheaded it would be (and Rennie was scathing of the NZ union not long ago, even though it was operating in a country with stricter Covid measures, which seemed to be overlooked).

You don't see the NZ union garnering headlines like this from credible news outlets. RA is a basket case and the good work seemingly being done by Scott Johnson to raise standards risks being fatally undermined by a union that a few years ago considered 5 franchises were too many, but now want us to believe they think 7 franchises is a good idea!

Rugby Australia descends into chaos after familiar boardroom turmoil | Bret Harris

Genuine reform will only be achieved when the system of selecting the board is changed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Derpus]

If NZ are so messed up and a fifth of the population of Australia, what does it say about RA that Australia's TV money is less than a third of NZs? I don't know how anyone with a grasp of mathematics can say the NZ union are the one messing up more (even if I think they were muppets to look a gift horse in the mouth with Japan).

I've been clear I think RAs hissy fit the week before the SR final was both immature and erratic, leading to their national team coach feeling the need to publicly point out how boneheaded it would be (and Rennie was scathing of the NZ union not long ago, even though it was operating in a country with stricter Covid measures, which seemed to be overlooked).

You don't see the NZ union garnering headlines like this from credible news outlets. RA is a basket case and the good work seemingly being done by Scott Johnson to raise standards risks being fatally undermined by a union that a few years ago considered 5 franchises were too many, but now want us to believe they think 7 franchises is a good idea!

Rugby Australia descends into chaos after familiar boardroom turmoil | Bret Harris

Genuine reform will only be achieved when the system of selecting the board is changed

www.theguardian.com

I never said RA knew what they were doing. I just said NZRU are horrible.

But, setting that aside you clearly have not a single clue about the local sporting market in Aus and I really can't be bothered explaining it to you so - as you were.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Even with SR and general world dominance rugby viewing and participation figures are on the wane in NZ. How many times can we watch the Saders pump the Blues or Hurricanes and still be entertained?

They don't want Aussie involved in SR because they think it's the best thing for us. They want it because the reality is NZ is a tiny, saturated market and **** is on the slide big time - they are realistically 5-10 years behind Australia but on the exact same trajectory in terms of finances, interest and player retention.

The door to Japan was never open. Losing to the 'Saders doesn't fit in with their corporate dong swinging model.

And lets talk about partners behaving erratically:
- flogged off SARU and Argentina
- demanded we cut three teams
- approached our franchises directly without consent
- abandoned a sold out (90k seater) test match after we had made accommodations to play them twice in a row in NZ.

What did the 'erratic and immature' RA do? call them out. Name one action they've taken that has been immature or erratic?

NZRU are fuckwits. Pay more attention.

i do get sick of this being touted around as if it was purely NZR's fault, THE LAW in NZ during COVID meant travelling teams would have to quarantine for two weeks and that was only after flights even restarted going in and out of NZ...meaning anything near a normal comp format was unachievable...even between NZ and Aus we've barely managed to get something going

 

[Dan54]

thats how it use to be, each union negotiated their tv deal and then it all went into a common pool, and that was part of the idea that it was one comp...but now NZR is saying we want to dominate and have all the money we bring...which is fair enough if we're actually willing to let them go when theyve had enough

Who told you that Kiwi? The original supersport deal was split evenly, and then SA felt because more money was coming from them, all would then do own deals and keep money they got from that deal. It hasn't been an even split since those days. To say NZR get 91 mill fron super rugby and RA get 30 mill is just untrue and most people know that.
Drua and MP get cut from NZR tv money too, and while I garee with that, if NZR decide they should give RA a cut of money from ABs, NPC or whatever and took money off grassroots rugby in this country they would rightfully be crucified.
By far the biggest rights Sky pay for is for All Blacks, and they also get paid for NPC and college rugby etc. The reason that NZR is getting a huge deal off Silver Lakes is because of All Blacks and not super so get amn idea where NZR's tv money comes from.

 

[Dan54]

And lets talk about partners behaving erratically:
- flogged off SARU and Argentina
- demanded we cut three teams
- approached our franchises directly without consent
- abandoned a sold out (90k seater) test match after we had made accommodations to play them twice in a row in NZ.

What did the 'erratic and immature' RA do? call them out. Name one action they've taken that has been immature or erratic?

NZRU are fuckwits. Pay more attention.

That's not bad Derps, Tell us about this sold out 90,000 test in Perth that was abandoned. Which Perth stadium was it being played at that held 90,000? Surely it wasn't the one that was actually played at Optus Stadium in Perth , a stadium that holds 60,000 and was still sold out when played??
Demanded Aus cut 3 teams. when Aritipu report came out Aus only had 4 teams as RA cut Force a year or 2 before.
And to top it off if Aus didn't want SA and Jaguares why didn't they jsut join SA and Argies and leave NZ to it's own devices?

Mate in no way am I saying NZR didn't stuff up plenty, it's better when you point them out you keep it reasonably correct. even on a mainly NH rugby forum.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

That's not bad Derps, Tell us about this sold out 90,000 test in Perth that was abandoned. Which Perth stadium was it being played at that held 90,000? Surely it wasn't the one that was actually played at Optus Stadium in Perth , a stadium that holds 60,000 and was still sold out when played??
Demanded Aus cut 3 teams. when Aritipu report came out Aus only had 4 teams as RA cut Force a year or 2 before.
And to top it off if Aus didn't want SA and Jaguares why didn't they jsut join SA and Argies and leave NZ to it's own devices?

Mate in no way am I saying NZR didn't stuff up plenty, it's better when you point them out you keep it reasonably correct. even on a mainly NH rugby forum.

It appears that the guy:

clearly have not a single clue about the local sporting market in Aus

Hopefully we get an extended period of him not being able to completely ignore points being made by posters, then making his own strawmen he likes, misattributing them to other posters, and arguing against them in a manner so lacking in social grace you almost wonder if be works for RA.

 

[Derpus]

Alright, I was being a little rude. But I get tired of this narrative that we are somehow throwing our toys out of the pram. The current structure suits NZ much more than it does us and all McLennan has said is two things:
1. NZ have been bad partners (arguable, I suppose, but they certainly haven't been good partners), and
2. RA are going to explore what works best for us given we only have a two year deal and the current structure isn't ideal.

Neither of these statements are particularly unreasonable or surprising. In fact, you would expect RA to explore all options - there is evidence viewership would be better if we went domestic. More viewership = more money.

Obviously this option has a lot of potential problems - but it's not like he's come out saying 'we demand x million or we are leaving'. He's just said everything is on the table.

I'm off this 'NZRU can do no evil' stuff and that Aus rugby must bend over for them at every turn. We are fighting for survival ffs.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Alright, I was being a little rude. But I get tired of this narrative that we are somehow throwing our toys out of the pram. The current structure suits NZ much more than it does us and all McLennan has said is two things:
1. NZ have been bad partners (arguable, I suppose, but they certainly haven't been good partners), and
2. RA are going to explore what works best for us given we only have a two year deal and the current structure isn't ideal.

Neither of these statements are particularly unreasonable or surprising. In fact, you would expect RA to explore all options - there is evidence viewership would be better if we went domestic. More viewership = more money.

Obviously this option has a lot of potential problems - but it's not like he's come out saying 'we demand x million or we are leaving'. He's just said everything is on the table.

I'm off this 'NZRU can do no evil' stuff and that Aus rugby must bend over for them at every turn. We are fighting for survival ffs.

in fairness...i dont think anyone says that...most kiwis i know will freely acknowledge NZR stuff things up all the time

I think what would have helped is if McLennan has explained how a aus domestic comp would work rather than making is sounds like it was purely to try and punish NZR for being dicks

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I would not claim that the exisiting arrangement would definitely create more TV revenue for Australia than an Oz only competition. I think that's a perfectly valid argument if RA had decided to calmly make that point.

My point is more about the standard of professional play on offer if Australia creates two new teams. Japan has all the revenue in the world but talent is spread thin over so many sides that the level of competition is low and this hurts the national side.

I know the Brumbies are losing their coach and some good players, but hopefully the finances in Australia are in such a dire state that they should be considering nuking SR Pacific after a debut season that I think pleasantly surprised a lot of people.

 

[Dan54]

Alright, I was being a little rude. But I get tired of this narrative that we are somehow throwing our toys out of the pram. The current structure suits NZ much more than it does us and all McLennan has said is two things:
1. NZ have been bad partners (arguable, I suppose, but they certainly haven't been good partners), and
2. RA are going to explore what works best for us given we only have a two year deal and the current structure isn't ideal.

Neither of these statements are particularly unreasonable or surprising. In fact, you would expect RA to explore all options - there is evidence viewership would be better if we went domestic. More viewership = more money.

Obviously this option has a lot of potential problems - but it's not like he's come out saying 'we demand x million or we are leaving'. He's just said everything is on the table.

I'm off this 'NZRU can do no evil' stuff and that Aus rugby must bend over for them at every turn. We are fighting for survival ffs.

Agree about exploring options and should do, (as NZ did with Aritipu report) and I no noone who says NZR do no evil, my argument is the RA can do no evil and NZR is always the culprit argument. I have never seen anyone or heard anyone say RA has to bend over backwards for NZR, but opposite applies. My only dislike is talking in press so often.
I have read where Stan/9 is supposedly going to make a statement that they are hppy for Aus to have a seperate comp, but not where they say they will pay more to pay for extra teams etc, it's all relative from where you seeing it from mate!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The whiff of mild panic around attendances/finances?

Super Rugby Pacific: NZR admit to ‘taking the fans for granted’

NZR's general manager of professional rugby and performance Chris Lendrum is looking to improve the experience for the supporters in 2023.

www.planetrugby.com

At least Aus and NZ seem to have settled their differences.

 

[mania]

The whiff of mild panic around attendances/finances?

Super Rugby Pacific: NZR admit to ‘taking the fans for granted’

NZR's general manager of professional rugby and performance Chris Lendrum is looking to improve the experience for the supporters in 2023.

www.planetrugby.com

At least Aus and NZ seem to have settled their differences.

this has always been the case. kiwi's ideally play sports not watch them

 

[The Seeker]

If NZ are so messed up and a fifth of the population of Australia, what does it say about RA that Australia's TV money is less than a third of NZs? I don't know how anyone with a grasp of mathematics can say the NZ union are the one messing up more (even if I think they were muppets to look a gift horse in the mouth with Japan).

I've been clear I think RAs hissy fit the week before the SR final was both immature and erratic, leading to their national team coach feeling the need to publicly point out how boneheaded it would be (and Rennie was scathing of the NZ union not long ago, even though it was operating in a country with stricter Covid measures, which seemed to be overlooked).

You don't see the NZ union garnering headlines like this from credible news outlets. RA is a basket case and the good work seemingly being done by Scott Johnson to raise standards risks being fatally undermined by a union that a few years ago considered 5 franchises were too many, but now want us to believe they think 7 franchises is a good idea!

Rugby Australia descends into chaos after familiar boardroom turmoil | Bret Harris

Genuine reform will only be achieved when the system of selecting the board is changed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The new season starts and Scott Robertson decides to get the next All Blacks coaching controversy started early. Very strange watching highlights of this match if you've watched the Crusaders over the years. Unless key players were missing it feels like the end of an era already after one game.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

And nice to see 25k at home for the Waratahs. Biggest Aussie regular season Super Rugby crowd outside of Covid that I can think of over the past 8 or so years. Hopefully a sign of Aussie union coming back off the ropes.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

The new season starts and Scott Robertson decides to get the next All Blacks coaching controversy started early. Very strange watching highlights of this match if you've watched the Crusaders over the years. Unless key players were missing it feels like the end of an era already after one game.

Except Tom Christie (a first choice crusader over many years), Every Forward in the 23 had played for the all blacks, been selected in an all blacks squad, or the all blacks XV, more forwards not in the 23 had also. Every starting back except their halfback (also highly experienced crusader) had played for the all blacks. Whitelock and jordan were unavailable but it was their best team from what was available. In general, more top players were available than last year, with moody, blackadder, goodhue returning

 

[EdBirch]

Pasifik v Drua was a good watch, shame about the attendance, looked practically empty