• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Spectators lose interest in Super Rugby

Well as fans we all want a fair competition that decides who the best team is. That is the whole point. I hate the idea of "Well, thats just the way it is!"

I dont want my team to lose that way but I also dont want my team to win that way either. If all the NZ teams fall apart in the future I wouldn't take much joy watching the Chiefs play their semi final at home if it was so obviously undeserved. Its embarrassing.

Im not sure I like the idea of modeling our competition on North American sport either. We are still relatively new to this whole professional thing and like the idea that most of the players on our teams come from that area or at least that country. Its also important for growing players for our national teams, something the NFL, NHL or MLB dont have to worry about. They are mostly focused on money and entertainment. That difference seems to be tearing SR apart.
 
The thing with this conference system is that it's based on US sport. We're just not used to it down this way. We need to give it a bit of time. I'm sure that up there in the US they have weak Conferences, where the leading team sneaks through to Finals, when they don't really deserve to be there. But no one complains cause they just go, "Well that's just the way it is.".
Right now the Kiwi conference is very strong. But will it always be that way? Maybe not. One day NZ might be thankful for the Conference system.
At the end of the day in 2016, four Kiwi teams are going through to play finals.

Good observation.

Being from the USA myself, I find the discussions interesting. To me it comes natural to have a franchise system with conferences that include guaranteed playoff spots, some sharing of costs, joint marketing and TV deals, etc.

Yet then I read posts from people that find these ideas bewildering and insist on models that to me are equally hard to comprehend as logically better.

That's the cool thing about an international discussion forum discussing an internationally appealing sport. It's a good chance to expand our perspectives and grapple with questions of what can work to grow the game on a world stage that is anything but homogenous and subject to the idiosyncrasies, traditions, politics, and economics of a wide range of countries.

My hope is that solutions can be found that borrow from all the options to create something sustainable and wildly popular. If it can be extended to the USA successfully and tap into that market's TV dollars without corrupting the game, that could be the secret.

But why??

Why must the rest of the world always try to convert into an American-type system?? USA is one of the very few countries that doesn't use the metric system, yet everyone agrees that it's a much less confusing system than the Miles/Inches/Yards they use in the USA.

Super Rugby isn't a national tournament either as is the case with most of the USA's sports (sure they throw in a few Canadian teams in as well). it's an international tournament that is now being hosted in 6 different countries! New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Japan and Singapore. It boasts more time zones than the USA, more distance being traveled than the USA, yet for some reason the Administrators thought that the USA system would be the best fit. Instead they opened up more problems than solutions, and instead of uniting the different nations, has made polarization an even bigger problem.

I hate that we want to convert to USA-ideas all the time, and this conference system is just another system that shouldn't catch on internationally.
 
^^

Stormers and Sharks/Bulls going to play-offs keeping out much better NZ teams from going through. (I also don't think it's right, and hate you for making me saying it out loud).
 
^^

Stormers and Sharks/Bulls going to play-offs keeping out much better NZ teams from going through. (I also don't think it's right, and hate you for making me saying it out loud).

Not really... The only team those 2 teams might prevent from going through is the Blues. And the Blues has had a bit of a mixed season just like the Sharks and Bulls have, so it's not really that they are preventing teams from going through, and if you look at the current standings, all 4 the NZ teams are going to the playoffs.
 
I still don't feel better though. I hope they change back to the old system. Top 4 of the log , if it's 4 NZ teams that's who must go through.
 
How is the current system preventing that from happening?
Presumably because the teams in the African conference have an advantage, because of the easier conference's and scheduling.
This is a completely fair view and I understand completely why some Kiwi's feel aggrieved.

That said the only COMPLETELY fair system is a home and away round robin with no play-offs like the Barclays Premier League, which in the current format would mean a 34 game season with no play-offs and a **** ton of travelling.

Can the system be fairer than it currently is? Of course and that should be the concern, unfortunately politics and money (and NZ's lack of clout in the latter) stop this from happening.
That's all there is to it really. This is the first season of the competition and from my understanding the goals were:
- SA wanted another side.
- Aus wanted more derbies.
- NZ wanted less travelling.
- Everyone wanted the Jags/Sunwolves

And this was the best they came up with hopefully future iterations will change things for the better, but there are disadvantages to almost any system (for example any round robin system is going to create more travel, especially for the more isolated countries).
 
For an international competition, how much does travel okay into the structure? It costs a lot to go halfway around the world, wears on the players, and creates a problem with TV viewers back home not being able to watch live. Having most of the games in one country makes practical sense.

When one country dominates like we see in NZ especially this year it does make seeding the tournament harder to do fairly, but as long as the tournament is large enough to include those teams they can still win and lead to a Kiwi final four. Allowing for home matches in SA and Australia in the early rounds helps keep those populations engaged, in theory at least.

Maybe the problem is in the scheduling of the crossover matches during the regular season. Could it work to schedule those matches based on seeding, either pitting the stronger teams against each other maybe intentionally putting the stronger against the weaker?

Just throwing ideas out.
 
But why??

Why must the rest of the world always try to convert into an American-type system?? USA is one of the very few countries that doesn't use the metric system, yet everyone agrees that it's a much less confusing system than the Miles/Inches/Yards they use in the USA.

Super Rugby isn't a national tournament either as is the case with most of the USA's sports (sure they throw in a few Canadian teams in as well). it's an international tournament that is now being hosted in 6 different countries! New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Japan and Singapore. It boasts more time zones than the USA, more distance being traveled than the USA, yet for some reason the Administrators thought that the USA system would be the best fit. Instead they opened up more problems than solutions, and instead of uniting the different nations, has made polarization an even bigger problem.

I hate that we want to convert to USA-ideas all the time, and this conference system is just another system that shouldn't catch on internationally.

I don't think it was a matter of converting to the Conference system because of some "US is best at everything" type of thinking. I feel they took the points that SomeOke makes, then looked around the world for what would best work for 18 teams in Super Rugby. They decided on a US style conference system and I feel they got it about right.
Once again I make the point - There will be four NZ teams in the Finals.
 
I don't think it was a matter of converting to the Conference system because of some "US is best at everything" type of thinking. I feel they took the points that SomeOke makes, then looked around the world for what would best work for 18 teams in Super Rugby. They decided on a US style conference system and I feel they got it about right.
Once again I make the point - There will be four NZ teams in the Finals.

Yeah, the conference system is not to emulate US sport, but rather a necessity of geography, or number of teams playing, one might assume. Though not too sure how Japan and Argentina fit that geography argument.

For the most part - the top teams are advancing, and next best 4 sides, and 3 happen to be NZ teams. Conference winners get a home bye in the first round and will likely face NZ opposition. For me, that simply evens out the playing field for the competition, as travelling and playing away is a bigger ask. In the end, the TV spectator, like me, wins because it's the only way to even things out. Not much good for local fans of NZ teams.

its the best of a bad situation, and I still think the comp is diluted by 3-4 unnecessary teams. Many of the conference matches I am not bothered watching.

the fact the lions might get home advantage throughout, while again evening out the contest IMHO, hardly seems fair to the NZ conference winner, who clearly have a tougher round of matches.
 
Last edited:
i really like that all the problems you guys have with super rugby are some of the problems that I have with the american sports systems
Mainly:
1. regular season means almost nothing, it's just a qualifying tourney
2. records cannot be used to fairly compare teams since they all play different schedules
3. we don't get to see the games that we want to see... there's no guarantee of teams playing everone and if something wonky happens in playoffs they won't even get to play each other all year

Other things that you haven't mentioned (in fact some of you are in love with one of them)
3. restrictions on the movement of player labour by national teams not picking players playing out of country (people love the free market everywhere except their sports for some reason)
4. salary cap (if all factories in england agreed to put a cap on wages in order to prevent competition between them people would throw a goddamn riot)
 
I really like that all the problems you guys have with super rugby are some of the problems that I have with the american sports systems
Mainly:
1. regular season means almost nothing, it's just a qualifying tourney
2. records cannot be used to fairly compare teams since they all play different schedules
3. we don't get to see the games that we want to see... there's no guarantee of teams playing everone and if something wonky happens in playoffs they won't even get to play each other all year

And in the NH it goes to the other extreme. Its possible for two teams to meet up to six times in a season, for example, in AP, or Pro12 or Top14, twice in the regular season plus once the payoffs and same again in the RCC/ECC

In SR I favour the idea that every team ought to play every other team.

Other things that you haven't mentioned (in fact some of you are in love with one of them)
3. restrictions on the movement of player labour by national teams not picking players playing out of country (people love the free market everywhere except their sports for some reason)
4. salary cap (if all factories in england agreed to put a cap on wages in order to prevent competition between them people would throw a goddamn riot)

Apples and Oranges. You don't have tens of thousands of people buying tickets to watch workers working in factories!

I am 100% in favour of National Teams being entitled set their own selection policy in choosing who they select and where they play. The NZRU consider that players who are based in Europe and Britain learn to play a style that suits the conditions and the competition they play in. As a consequence, their skills are not honed to level the NZRU requires, and with the access limited by their clubs, we won't have enough time with the players to get them up to scratch.

When we have ALL our players playing in NZ Franchises, the All Blacks coach has unfettered access to all players, and he gets a level of co-operation from the individual team coaches that will not be forthcoming from the coaches and management of NH clubs.

Additionally, and this is something most advocates of NZ selecting foreign players almost never think of, the All Blacks coaching staff only have to watch and analyse, at most, five and as few as only two matches each week. If we were selecting from Europe, that could be as many as 19 matches each week. Why should we make more unnecessary work for our coaches?
 
Last edited:
^^

Stormers and Sharks/Bulls going to play-offs keeping out much better NZ teams from going through. (I also don't think it's right, and hate you for making me saying it out loud).
That's a very hard sell because:

1) The Sharks actually played against NZ teams
2) in NZ, won one (vs Highlanders) and came very, very close to winning against the Chiefs (#1 in NZ conference, score was 22-24)
3) Tore the Hurricanes a new one when they played in RSA

So when you tell me that the Sharks are keeping out much better NZ teams, i have no idea what you are talking about.

Presumably because the teams in the African conference have an advantage, because of the easier conference's and scheduling.
I don't think it's fair to put all RSAn teams in the same bag.
I can understand that argument against a team like the Stormers (sorry!), but absolutely not for a team like the Sharks. I'd say the Lions didn't have it easy either and have earned the #1 spot on their own merit.

This is a completely fair view and I understand completely why some Kiwi's feel aggrieved.
Then maybe the ones who feel that way should grow a thicker skin. This was no conspiracy and given the way the tournament goes, when one conference is too strong (NZ this year) the conference that has fewer games against them will benefit (RSA 1). Next season tables might turn, it happens. Considering the schedule, the time zones, travelling times, # of teams, june's internationals, Tri Nations and other tournaments, you have to make some sort of sacrifice somewhere.
If, for example, you want to increase the number of games to make it more fair, expect players to pay for that when they have to play for their national teams.
I "think" we are on the same page here.

That said the only COMPLETELY fair system is a home and away round robin with no play-offs like the Barclays Premier League, which in the current format would mean a 34 game season with no play-offs and a **** ton of travelling.
Agreed.

- Everyone wanted the Jags/Sunwolves
I don't think many teams wanted the Jaguares before the tournament started.
 
Apples and Oranges. You don't have tens of thousands of people buying tickets to watch workers working in factories!

I am 100% in favour of National Teams being entitled set their own selection policy in choosing who they select and where they play. The NZRU consider that players who are based in Europe and Britain learn to play a style that suits the conditions and the competition they play in. As a consequence, their skills are not honed to level the NZRU requires, and with the access limited by their clubs, we won't have enough time with the players to get them up to scratch.

When we have ALL our players playing in NZ Franchises, the All Blacks coach has unfettered access to all players, and he gets a level of co-operation from the individual team coaches that will not be forthcoming from the coaches and management of NH clubs.

Additionally, and this is something most advocates of NZ selecting foreign players almost never think of, the All Blacks coaching staff only have to watch and analyse, at most, five and as few as only two matches each week. If we were selecting from Europe, that could be as many as 19 matches each week. Why should we make more unnecessary work for our coaches?

why does the fact that no one watches people do something in factories have anything to do with capping someone's wages just cause they are in entertainment. Please give me one good reason for a salary cap that isn't just an excuse owners give so that they can keep more money.

I understand that selection policies are good for national teams but they are still bull****. I really don't care if that makes the New Zealand selectors and coaching staffs job easily, i care about the players ability to negotiate their wages in a purely competitive market. I'm not gonna feel bad for the coaches if they have to watch a couple more games a week, it's what they (who have free job markets) are paid to do.
 
why does the fact that no one watches people do something in factories have anything to do with capping someone's wages just cause they are in entertainment. Please give me one good reason for a salary cap that isn't just an excuse owners give so that they can keep more money.

1. Do you know who pays rugby player wages in NZ? If not, I suggest you actually learn somethng about our structures before criticising what we do and how we do it.

2. If you work in Dave's Widget factory in Stoke on Trent, you will be getting the same wages for the same job if you were working for Dave's Widget factory in Bournemouth, or Newcastle, or Cheltenham, because Dave owns all those factories, and he's paying your wages. If you go work for Pierre's Widget factory in Marseilles, Pierre is paying you, not Dave, so he can pay you what he likes, but you won't be working for Dave any more.

3. The Salary Cap is NOT on individual in players, its an overall spending cap on clubs. It helps to ensure a more even competition for those who ULTIMATELY own the game in this country, the fans. It also prevents a few clubs from having Sugar Daddies who will buy up all the best players, turning the competition into a one-dimensional, predictable borefest, with the same teams winning year after year a la EPL. (Leicester winning this year is an aberration, they won't win it next year and it will be business as usual; ManC, ManU,.Arsenal or Chelsea will win, just like they have for the previous 20 years).


I understand that selection policies are good for national teams but they are still bull****. I really don't care if that makes the New Zealand selectors and coaching staffs job easily, i care about the players ability to negotiate their wages in a purely competitive market. I'm not gonna feel bad for the coaches if they have to watch a couple more games a week, it's what they (who have free job markets) are paid to do.

The players are free to play for whoever they wish and free to negotiate with who they want for better wages, but if they go overseas, they give up the right to be selected for the All Blacks. Its a privilege to play for your country, not a right. Its a privilege that has to be earned, and meeting the criteria set down by the selectors is part of earning it.
 
Last edited:
It helps to ensure a more even competition for those who ULTIMATELY own the game in this country, the fans. It also prevents a few clubs from having Sugar Daddies who will buy up all the best players, turning the competition into a one-dimensional, predictable borefest, with the same teams winning year after year a la EPL. (Leicester winning this year is an aberration, they won't win it next year and it will be business as usual; ManC, ManU,.Arsenal or Chelsea will win, just like they have for the previous 20 years).
That is a tad biased to say the least. In order to talk about the results of a policy of this kind you need a longer period of analysis.
The problem with the salary cap is that its implementation is on a national level while players can move across jurisdictions.
Nowadays the salary gap between SR and say, Top 14 is not "that" big. If that gap becomes bigger, the cap will prove to be counterproductive. Argentina is a decent example of this.

You can lure players with the national team argument, but as Australia's/Argentina's cases suggest, chances of that working in the long run are not promising.
 
1. Do you know who pays rugby player wages in NZ? If not, I suggest you actually learn somethng about our structures before criticising what we do and how we do it.

2. If you work in Dave's Widget factory in Stoke on Trent, you will be getting the same wages for the same job if you were working for Dave's Widget factory in Bournemouth, or Newcastle, or Cheltenham, because Dave owns all those factories, and he's paying your wages. If you go work for Pierre's Widget factory in Marseilles, Pierre is paying you, not Dave, so he can pay you what he likes, but you won't be working for Dave any more.

3. The Salary Cap is NOT on individual in players, its an overall spending cap on clubs. It helps to ensure a more even competition for those who ULTIMATELY own the game in this country, the fans. It also prevents a few clubs from having Sugar Daddies who will buy up all the best players, turning the competition into a one-dimensional, predictable borefest, with the same teams winning year after year a la EPL. (Leicester winning this year is an aberration, they won't win it next year and it will be business as usual; ManC, ManU,.Arsenal or Chelsea will win, just like they have for the previous 20 years).




The players are free to play for whoever they wish and free to negotiate with who they want for better wages, but if they go overseas, they give up the right to be selected for the All Blacks. Its a privilege to play for your country, not a right. Its a privilege that has to be earned, and meeting the criteria set down by the selectors is part of earning it.

1. does it matter? no
2. again no, cause each of those cities has different job markets which have different wages depending on the factors in that town
3. here's an idea, have a rule preventing sugar daddies from buying clubs like they do in germany for football clubs

to your last point: that would be fine if the selectors and the clubs weren't in the same organization... NZRU requires you to be employed by them if you want to play for the All Blacks

Also let me ask you this: Do you believe that banks should have salary caps? Banks being competitive is an integral part of money growth in a country so they can offer competitive interest rates on both saving and borrowing which would help all people in the country.
 
Last edited:
I couldn't be bothered to comment until now because it's been a dull long argument; but for obvious reasons the NZRU will never select overseas players, because it will never be in their interest to do so.

The NZRU's job is to look after the interest of rugby in New Zealand, on every level.

The NZRU will never be able to compete 100% with the wages of private clubs who can offer millions per season (at least not without additional sponsorship deals which go to a handful of players). The reason is that the money the have has to be funneled through every level of rugby.

Now people who don't understand the point go "well, why not follow South Africa and allow Top 14 clubs to look carry the financial burden of top players, while still selecting them". Well it's simple. Say hypothetically half the All Blacks play in France:

1. The NZRU and by extension the All Blacks lose half their ability to manage the welfare of their team.
2. The players no longer develop under the worlds best development setup (which make no mistake - is the best rugby setup on the planet bar none).
3. Selection becomes more difficult to make comparisons.

With all due respect - once players go overseas -there is no control of the NZRU to keep them world class. Frankly many go up North and don't come back half the players they were. Any dip in results creates a dip in massive sponsorship deals.

But then you have the next tier of rugby which suffers dramatically;

4. Super Rugby teams no longer have access to their All Blacks
5. The next tier of rugby players see that you can make the All Blacks by playing overseas (and on better wages), and so have no incentive to stay (and continue to develop)
6. Fans of Super Rugby see that the best players are no longer available to NZ franchises, and so don't bother forking out for sky subscriptions or live games.

7. The NPC which generally runs at a loss anyway, can no longer be subsidized by higher tier rugby. So you potentially lose one of the most important development competitions.

8. The **** show that NZ rugby has become means it faces larger competition from other sports.


Etc, etc, etc.

These are all points I made prior to South Africa opening their development policy; and now here is a list of just the number of players flooding out of South Africa just this season: http://lastwordonsports.com/2016/07/12/south-african-rugby-players-migrating-to-the-north/. What's even worse was that HM was selecting guys who left and were in their late 30s for the last World Cup, giving you guys absolutely no reason to stay.

South Africa may be in a hard position economically but they should have bitten the bullet and ditched their overseas going players, just to try and mitigate the massive player drain. But they are a poorly run union.

Australia's selection policy is a bit better; but frankly the depth of NZ rugby that we maintain by keeping our policy as it is, means we can simply bring in great players to replace great, older, departing players. It would never be in the NZRUs interest to compromise this. And it's been tested. We entered a World Cup final with Stephen Donald over Nick Evans. We went without the best TH prop in the world in Carl Hayman, for some of his best years, instead having guys like Tialata. Because even hypothetically if every single player in the current All Blacks squad took a deal overseas, we have the depth to still be competitive without compromising our entire rugby setup.
 
For once, I completely agree with TRF nickdnz. You lose the occasional good player, but the incentive to keep playing in NZ remains strong for many more.
 
That is a tad biased to say the least. In order to talk about the results of a policy of this kind you need a longer period of analysis.


Would 26 years be long enough?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rugby_League_salary_cap


ETA
If you want to see what a salary cap can do to make a competition exciting and less predictble

English Premier League - No Salary Cap
Established 1992
20 teams
Number of unique Premiers 6
Highest number of individual Premierships 13 (ManU)

Australian Rugby League - Salary Cap
Cap established 1990
14 to 16 teams (currently 16)
Number of unique Premiers 13
Highest number of individual Premierships 5 (Brisbane)
 
Last edited:
Top