South Africa Banned from hosting International Sporting Events by Minister

[TRF_heineken]

Any idea how quota policies are viewed amongst players, black and white? I imagine very few make their views public (with good reason) but there must be some rumour / leaks to the media etc. Are there ever reports of tension between pro-quota and anti-quota players or anything like that?

I can imagine that it will be mostly negative. I remember last year there were a lot of negative reports from our Cricketers with regard to the quota system for our domestic league, and that they threatened some sort of boycott.

It would be interesting to hear what the players have to say about this issue, but I don't think that they will open their mouths, for the sake of avoiding backlash, and maybe ending their careers. Eben Etzebeth is the current chairperson of the SARPA (South African Rugby Players Association), I just don't think that they want to get involved in this problem and rather want to focus at their upcoming matches.

If we are properly ruled out (this guy has a tendency to change his mind), then I really hope it's Italy. They really need some kinda boost in rugby interest in the country to improve that team.

We're not yet ruled out, and the Minister has also not yet stated that current processes should be halted, so the possibility is still there that we will host that tournament. And as you rightly stated, he has a tendency to change his mind. Which I hope will happen, and SARU should fight this ban IMHO, as it is clear the minister has his knives in for certain sports, and now wants to punish them.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeh but why would World rugby want to hold it I. A country where the Gov keeps threatening their fixtures

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeh but why would World rugby want to hold it I. A country where the Gov keeps threatening their fixtures

They wouldn't, and that's why I think WR should launch a pre-emptive strike, and shut our politicians up.

EDIT: I see Afriforum just stated on their Facebook profile, that Political interference is against the International Sporting Regulations. So perhaps there is more to this to come.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Mbalulz is as fickle as they come and has blown a lot of hot air in the past but he overstepped the line on this one IMO. If I were involved with WR this would be it for me, SA out of the running for hosting 2023 based on the fickleness of the ANC policy makers.

The irony is that nothing would give SA transformation a bigger boost than hosting a rugby RWC and here I mean real transformation; from the ground up and getting our top young black talent interested in the sport. We would also need to be competitive as its easier for new fans to get behind a sucessful team than a losing one and yes, I am saying that a quota Bok team will not be as competitive as one not hampered by extra variables in selection criteria and able to fully make use of our player pool as is. We've made big strides already WRT inclusiveness in the sport whether the politicians care to acknowledge this or not. Their approach only serves to undermine any real development in rugby in the black community and also creates division rather than fights it.

I think we do have some real talented black players out there who will now have clouds hanging over their heads WRT people wondering what eactly the basis of their inclusion would be. That's as unfair to that black player as anyone else effected by this.

And where will we draw the line? I mean just last year the politicians were asking is Damian de Allende non-white? Now we'll be making distinction between 'black' and 'colored'. IE does Mapoe count as 'black' or is it only 100% 'traditional black Africans' and how accurately can they trace ancestry- I mean its a pyramid not a line. Ridiculous.

If I were to pick a match-day 23 to have 50% non-white (of which 60% is 'traditional black SAn');

Lets do the maths first. 23 / 2 = 11,5. Lets hope they round it down to 11. 60% of that is 6,6. Lets again assume we are working with rounding down to 6. So we need 11 players 'of color' of which 6 must be 'traditional black African South Africans and not Zimbabweans'.

1 Tendai Mtawarira
2 Bismarck du Plessis
3 Frans Malherbe
4 Eben Etzebeth
5 Lood de Jager
6 Marcel Coetzee
7 Siya Kolisi
8 Duane Vermeulen

9 Faf de Klerk
10 Elton Jantjies

11 Lwazi Mvovo
12 Damian de Allende
13 Lionel Mapoe
14 Sergeal Petersen
15 Willie le Roux

16 Edgar Marutlule
17 Trevor Nyakane
18 Vincent Koch
19 Oupa Mohoje
20 Nizaam Carr
21 Rudy Paige
22 Pat Lambie (Pollard out injured)
23 Jesse Kriel

That to my mind is the least disruptive and most competitive 23 I can come up taking the quota as is into account and seeing (and I hate that this is what it comes too) Mapoe as 'black enough'. Now I don't think that is a huge step down but at the same time what happens when one of our scraped together black players gets injured? Also, its a huge disservice to some players who would likely be there but for race politics.

- - - Updated - - -

A funny thing I realized when going through the top excersize is that I ruled out JPP on the basis that I need to have black players and would rather use my quota of white players in the forwards meaning I was pressed at the backline and Mvovo and Petersen are good enough on the wings and they are 'proper black' and I prefer Mapoe at 13 and he is 'blacker' so no space for the colored guy who always seems to get the shaft for either not being black enough or white enough. Wing is a spot we have very little options to go anything other than black our current player pool considered in relation to the quota system. So its probably tough luck for older guys like Habana and JPP who wouldn't count so well towards the quota and Ruan Combrinck who is arguably our top wing ATM.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

EDIT: I see Afriforum just stated on their Facebook profile, that Political interference is against the International Sporting Regulations. So perhaps there is more to this to come.

I think that this needs to come from other organisations and individuals - within and outside of SA. Afriforum are too divisive.

 

[Jaguares]

If we are properly ruled out (this guy has a tendency to change his mind), then I really hope it's Italy. They really need some kinda boost in rugby interest in the country to improve that team.

I agree. I support Italy

Ireland for me.

But Ireland has already hosted a WC

 

[FNS]

We gladly nationalize SA players for the new Arg super team =P

Jokes aside, this is a bad move. Forcing something like this generates only hate from sectors that are waiting in the shadows for something like this to agitate the waters.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But Ireland has already hosted a WC

No we haven't. Hosted a few games but that's not the same.

Why are people happy to give it to Italy when their domestic sides have awful records of attendance? I think you have to earn the right to host by showing interest in rugby, Ireland and SA have that, as do Japan, England, NZ etc... Italy do not.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think that this needs to come from other organisations and individuals - within and outside of SA. Afriforum are too divisive.

Perhaps, but I like what they are doing, and we as a minority (White Afrikaans People) can see that they are working very hard for our interests. Like them or not, they are getting the job done, which nobody else wants to take on. They just sued the Limpopo Dept. of Education and The Dept. of Health for over R1.1Billion for corruption.

But what I do agree with is that more organizations needs to jump on board and fight this.

Forcing something like this generates only hate from sectors that are waiting in the shadows for something like this to agitate the waters.

The hate has been there long before this bombshell, and it all started with the attempt to remove the springbok. Our Minister is a sly devil, yesterday he also said this:

[TEXTAREA]Mbalula said it was time the transformation process was fast-tracked. He said for the past 20 years the issue of transformation had been put on the back burner and had been reduced to quotas.

He said he had suggested at a sports indaba that the quota system be abolished, but the fraternity was against that idea. He said the time had come for those opposed to transformation to be punished.

"To me, quotas were just being misused to undermine black players on merit to confine them to the bench, because the quotas say we must field three. I said, let's deal with this issue scientifically.

"Tomorrow, even if you can change the minister of sport, the system, the way it is, is unbreakable because there has to be consequences for people going out of their way not to comply with the transformation agenda in South Africa."[/TEXTAREA]

I would love to know who this "fraternity" is, and why they are now basically holding the National Teams hostage with their demands.

What ticks me off the most of this, is that he's lying, and on so many occasions people have come up with better plans than the ones in place, only to be shot down over and over.

The reason why Rugby, Cricket, Netball and Athletics (which includes Swimming) are the ones being targeted, is because of the inferiority complex our government has towards White people, and please don't take this as a racist comment. If you look at it in context, you'll see that these sporting codes have been performing well at major events where it was mostly white athletes that was performing, and now they are targeting these codes, to "get even".

 

[BakkiesBokke]

Anyone read this?

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...l-wake-up-call-with-a-short-sighted-solution/

 

[Jaguares]

No we haven't. Hosted a few games but that's not the same.

Why are people happy to give it to Italy when their domestic sides have awful records of attendance? I think you have to earn the right to host by showing interest in rugby, Ireland and SA have that, as do Japan, England, NZ etc... Italy do not.

Because England, Wales, Ireland or Scotland is the same in terms of host a WC. The same landscape, the same weather, the same peope, etc.

Italy is a big country, with many big stadiums and that's the idea. Expanding our game. How rugby is going to grow in Italy if we don't support them? They lost almost all their games and even that you see a sold out Rome Olympic stadium.

That's the difference between Union and League. While they only can play a WC in Great Britain or Oceania, we can play a WC in Japan, South Africa, USA, Argentina or Italy. So give an opportunity to the Italian rugby community.

 

[ncurd]

Because England, Wales, Ireland or Scotland is the same in terms of host a WC. The same landscape, the same weather, the same people, etc.

Except none of that is true....especially your last point culturally it varies a hell of alot between.

 

[Jaguares]

Except none of that is true....especially your last point culturally it varies a hell of alot between.

It's the same neighborhood. You have thousands of Irishmen living in England. And the others just have to cross the pond. A WC game in England is almost a home game for the Irish. In addition, Italy is not in Southeast Asia, they haven't to travel a lot. Let's explore the world and expand our game

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

What ncurd said, a RWC in Ireland would be completely different to the one in England.

A nation should have to earn the right to host, it's the pinnacle of the sport and shouldn't be given out of charity.

 

[ncurd]

It's the same neighborhood. You have thousands of Irishmen living in England. And the others just have to cross the pond. A WC game in England is almost a home game for the Irish. In addition, Italy is not in Southeast Asia, they haven't to travel a lot. Let's explore the world and expand our game

We have thousands of Italians too...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom#Countries_of_origin

 

[saulan]

What ncurd said, a RWC in Ireland would be completely different to the one in England.

A nation should have to earn the right to host, it's the pinnacle of the sport and shouldn't be given out of charity.

I don't agree with this. If we go by that line of thinking the next World Cup wouldn't be in Japan because they wouldn't have proved anything by the time the tournament location was decided (only beat Wales and SA later). If we go by that thinking it would just be rotated around the tier 1 teams and we take away that chance to show off the tournament in a lower tier nation which may spark something in terms of support and player base going forward. That's also my personal reason for wanting it in Italy, I think they can both host great tournaments, but if the options were Italy and Ireland, I would want Italy to have a go to hopefully spark something in their country and maybe some of its neighbours.

 

[ncurd]

I don't agree with this. If we go by that line of thinking the next World Cup wouldn't be in Japan because they wouldn't have proved anything by the time the tournament location was decided (only beat Wales and SA later). If we go by that thinking it would just be rotated around the tier 1 teams and we take away that chance to show off the tournament in a lower tier nation which may spark something in terms of support and player base going forward. That's also my personal reason for wanting it in Italy, I think they can both host great tournaments, but if the options were Italy and Ireland, I would want Italy to have a go to hopefully spark something in their country and maybe some of its neighbours.

Lets remember the RWC has to be financially viable.
TBH I prefer a method of alternating between emerging nations (like Japan & Italy) and the establish top 8 (England, Ireland, Wales & Scotland(likely joint bid if they do it), France, SA, Aus and NZ). With Japan in 2019 it makes sense to go to a financially good country in terms of money made before heading off again to the likes of Argentina, Italy or AN Other.

 

[saulan]

Lets remember the RWC has to be financially viable.
TBH I prefer a method of alternating between emerging nations (like Japan & Italy) and the establish top 8 (England, Ireland, Wales & Scotland(likely joint bid if they do it), France, SA, Aus and NZ). With Japan in 2019 it makes sense to go to a financially good country in terms of money made before heading off again to the likes of Argentina, Italy or AN Other.

Out of interest, do you think that a tournament in Italy wouldn't be financially successful? I just don't see it. There is still easy access for European countries and Italy isn't going to struggle to attract people from abroad for the tournament. I also really don't see the Italians not being interested and not wanting to go to matches. A World Cup is something special. I really don't think you can compare a World Cup with their league games and say they won't attend.

 

[Which Tyler]

It's the same neighborhood. You have thousands of Irishmen living in England. And the others just have to cross the pond. A WC game in England is almost a home game for the Irish. In addition, Italy is not in Southeast Asia, they haven't to travel a lot. Let's explore the world and expand our game

Whereas we only have 200,000+ South Africans.



Personally, I favour Italy as hosts for 2023; as I think it would both turn a notable profit AND grow the game away from rugby's heartland.

 

[ncurd]

Out of interest, do you think that a tournament in Italy wouldn't be financially successful? I just don't see it. There is still easy access for European countries and Italy isn't going to struggle to attract people from abroad for the tournament. I also really don't see the Italians not being interested and not wanting to go to matches. A World Cup is something special. I really don't think you can compare a World Cup with their league games and say they won't attend.

It's all about the prices you can charge especially for minnows games. A game at Kingsholm was likely to sell out regardless of who played but places like Hove were a genuine surprise within the UK. In Italy your far less likely to generate that kind of support even in rugby areas of the country so you can't charge as much for the games therefore you have to pay stadia less for their use. If the games aren't financially viable for the Football clubs they won't bid for their games to be played there. That means overall it will make significantly less money.

As for travelling fans will likely only travel to see their teams play and against the good sides. I don't know if people will travel to watch England get one over on Uruguay.