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Soccer fan violence

This is another thing that really ****** me off about Aussie soccer fans. The ones who aren't out and out thugs, are just pretentious d----bages who like following some EPL team almost for fashion purposes. It's seriously pathetic how many of these middle class white people say they're big "Man U" fans are something. They're generally people who don't particularly like sport, but think that being a fan of some team of overpaid mercenaries from all four corners of the world representing a region they know nothing about and have never visited.

It's not that I have anything against middle class white people - I am one :p - but these are the type of pretentious middle class white people who like to pretend that they're more cultured and sophisticated than your average joe, purely because they watch the highlights of the EPL on FoxSports once a month. What annoys me about that is that they're exhibiting a serious cultural cringe about their own country without even realising it; Australia isn't a soccer nation and it's as simple as that. It's like they're embarrassed that we should have sporting tastes that are genuinely unique, rather than just buying into the same homogenous boredom that much of Europe, Asia and South America obsess themselves with.

This!!!!!!!! Half the people I know who support Man U couldn't point to Manchester on a map. I also know people who support Barcelona but don't try to have a cultured discussion with them about Catalan independence. Now I do support Man U but I don't claim to be the world's greatest fan. I just take a passing interest. I also make sure I get out and support the Wellington Phoenix.
 
Obviously not cricket, a more genteel game I've never seen. Grounds are usually well over half empty so the only crowd problem would be a lack of one. Games last almost a week, and has many really old folks (is it the members that they are called?) in attendance.

Regards football, I would say the main reason is working class passion. As a sport it tends to generate fierce rivalry and people take it so seriously (far more than other sports). To use an extreme example, in Kenya there have been two deaths cently (a Liverpool fan was taking the mickey out of an Arsenal fan after losing 5-1..so he shot him). The songs (95,000 Aussie Liverpool fans singing You'll Never Walk Alone), the chanting, the atmosphere (sometimes flares)...you don't get that in other sports.

Rugby league is a parochial game and doesn't have the same tradition of passionate rivalry. The AFL I could well imagine there being a few skirmishes among fans, but again, it's a parochial game.

Similar to cricket, Rugby union is a middle class British colonial game without intense rivalry and folk are very well mannered (silence for opposition kicks, clapping everyone off etc etc.). I've been to Twickenham once and I was astounded by the silence...no atmosphere.

See, I just don't buy this. In Australia, soccer isn't the working class game at all... it's Rugby League and then the AFL is the 'everyman' game of the other states (followed by all levels of society with equal enthusiasm). Soccer on the other hand is more the game of middle class white people and immigrants who have been brought up on the game. In fact there's a kind of snobbery to soccer fans in Australia that makes the fan violence even more odd.

As for the rivalries, in the AFL Collingwood has bigger average attendences than Man U and their rivalries with several clubs are as fierce as they come. Rugby League in Australia has similarly intense and long standing rivalries - South Sydney and Sydney (easts) have a history way more intense than the fake franchises of the A-League, yet its the A-League fans who try and kill each other in the street. In England League rivalries might not mean much, but they're pretty intense in Australia (where the game is far larger - hence England/GB inability to beat us for decades...).

To be honest I think that it's not class that invokes volatile behaviour amongst the soccer fan, but rather the nature of the game itself. As I said in my opening post, the case of Wales is an interesting one here - Rugby and Soccer are both working class in Wales, but it's only the Welsh soccer fans that need segregating due to what the author perceived as being an almost violence generating set of rules in soccer.
 
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See, I just don't buy this. In Australia, soccer isn't the working class game at all... it's Rugby League and then the AFL is the 'everyman' game of the other states (followed by all levels of society with equal enthusiasm). Soccer on the other hand is more the game of middle class white people and immigrants who have been brought up on the game. In fact there's a kind of snobbery to soccer fans in Australia that makes the fan violence even more odd.

As for the rivalries, in the AFL Collingwood has bigger average attendences than Man U and their rivalries with several clubs are as fierce as they come. Rugby League in Australia has similarly intense and long standing rivalries - South Sydney and Sydney (easts) have a history way more intense than the fake franchises of the A-League, yet its the A-League fans who try and kill each other in the street. In England League rivalries might not mean much, but they're pretty intense in Australia (where the game is far larger - hence England/GB inability to beat us for decades...).

To be honest I think that it's not class that invokes volatile behaviour amongst the soccer fan, but rather the nature of the game itself. As I said in my opening post, the case of Wales is an interesting one here - Rugby and Soccer are both working class in Wales, but it's only the Welsh soccer fans that need segregating due to what the author perceived as being an almost violence generating set of rules in soccer.

Hmm..well Australia doesn't have a class system so I wouldn't use "middle class" in regards to sport there. To get to the root of the sports and identity the difference in behaviour, Rugby and cricket are the two middle class British colonial games that are played among the same 5 or 6 nations (the anomaly being France as they adopted it willingly)..and both sports originate among upper class gentry, the genteel, polite, well mannered folk..."jolly good shot old boy". This tradition of good etiquette has been maintained in both sports. Football on the other hand is rooted in the working class; tribalism, passionate, it's the everyman game. This is reflected in the chants, the songs, the flags, the banners, the constant cheering for your own team and booing of the opposition (if Wayne Rooney is taking a penalty he would receive dogs abuse as he's preparing, in Rugby there would be a respectful silence). Also in football the fans are segregated (home fans, away fans)..you don't get that in most other sports (in the US you don't get any away fans).

Going to Rugby or cricket is like a day out at the beach. I commented on the lack of atmosphere or intense rivalry in Rugby, but it would appear that many in the sport like it that way. People chatter amongst themselves (also fans of both teams mingle), bring flasks, sandwiches, perhaps a newspaper (the folks that are at the cricket often have those), people are usually eating something, drinking beer in plastic cups. None of this is evident in football..people are too entrenched in the game, the back and forth nature of the sport..and there are very few stoppages. Bar the half time break you don't get time to partake in other activities.

If there ain't any of this in Rugby league or AFL I would say its because neither have the tradition of football. Certainly rugby league in England...it's similarly working class, but there ain't the banners, the songs, chants, flags...and while there is rivalry it's a parochial game played amongst themselves so it doesnt have the varying regional hatred. Similarly AFL is predominantly a state of Victoria game, always playing the neighbours.
 
I've never heard a rugby crowd and cricket crowd are comparable. Rugby 7's crowds maybe as it goes usually around 10 hours a day..

Rugby is an 80 minute game, who the ***** is having a picnic or reading a news paper? It's much closer to a football crowd than a cricket crowd in terms of intensity...it just often doesn't have violence. There maybe are a handful of stadiums in the world which respect goal kickers with silence, Ireland especially. I like it but it is hardly the norm.

In the US you don't get any away fans? The SuperBowl must have been pretty empty this year without the Giants playing,
 
I think this is ridiculous to be honest, the atmosphere is different in rugby to football but that's just the nature of the fans and the supporters. I go to a lot of rugby games and the only other sport I go to is Gaelic Football. I've been to Croke Park for four All Ireland Football Finals 05, 08, 11 and 13 (Kerry lost 3/4 of them I'm a lucky man!) and these are what I compare all other matches atmospheres to, Tyrone's 5 minutes of domination at the end of 08 being the best, and rugby games have near enough matched that. Ireland - England 2009 was up there, Leinster - Munster the same year and Leinster - Leicester as well as Clermont - Toulon HEC final have all matched them while Ireland - England 2011, Ireland - Wales 2014 and Ireland - France RWC 2007 have all come pretty close and that's just matches I've been to. Atmospheres in rugby can be absolutely amazing, no violence is a positive and separation of fans must be ****, the craic with other the team's fans can really make an average game good!
 
It has to do with culture, the old saying "rugby is a hooligan sport played by gentlemen while football is a gentlemen sport played by hooligans" holds true. Football is a sport that involves a lot of posturing and chirping and it really brings the fans into the game. Rugby not so much. Also, rugby is a steady feed of non-stop action where football is very anerobic in it's build up. We have a similar problem with NHL hockey in Canada and it's mostly down to passion and excitement of the game boiling over into violence in the crowd.

Every year in the Stanley Cup playoffs we usually have at least one riot in Canada about hockey and it is fulled by drunk adolescents letting their emotions from the game spill over into the streets. You also have the case of other groups moving in and taking advantage of a situation.

 
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IMO, its a case of copy cat behaviour or monkey see - monkey do if you like...Its the same thing that leads to soccer players taking a dive if an opponent so much as touches them. They see other players do it, and successfully, so they do it too.

(Just as an aside, I notice that this feigning injury to get a penalty is beginning to rear its ugly head in rugby as well, especially in France, so I hope the iRB stands on it big time. Any player caught feigning/simulating needs to have the disciplinary system smash them down with an effing big hammer, followed by a long suspension.)

Totally agree. I really hope the IRB stomps down hard on diving. It just cheapens the game, and it's totally unnecessary considering the amount of real injuries that occur during a game.

As far as soccer/football fans go, I think some of it has to do with longtime rivalries between cities and countries (for instance, we had a Polish employee who couldn't wait to beat up German fans at the next football match he was attending, just to get back for WWII). I also wonder if the lack of scoring in a football game has anything to do with it - fans get bored, drink more, get into fights.

It also seems (to me) that rugby tends to be more of a family thing (I see lots of families in the stands...and single girls...hmmmm), while football tends to appeal more to single guys with nothing better to do, leading to more pure testosterone in the stands looking for an outlet.


das
 
Hmm..well Australia doesn't have a class system so I wouldn't use "middle class" in regards to sport there.

Not like England we don't, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think there's a significant issue with income inequality and that people from different socio-economic backgrounds don't have different tastes. We have a much lower PDI (Power Distance Index) than a lot of countries, but its pretty well the same as the UK in reality.

Rugby and cricket are the two middle class British colonial games that are played among the same 5 or 6 nations (the anomaly being France as they adopted it willingly)..and both sports originate among upper class gentry, the genteel, polite, well mannered folk..."jolly good shot old boy". This tradition of good etiquette has been maintained in both sports.

This also just isn't true. If you go to New Zealand, Wales or pretty well anywhere in the Pacific Rugby is anything but the "jolly good shot old boy" sport you're talking about. In fact in NZ they used to talk about how they loved playing England because they took pleasure from dirtying up the stuck up-pommy private school boys nice white jumpers.

Football on the other hand is rooted in the working class; tribalism, passionate, it's the everyman game. This is reflected in the chants, the songs, the flags, the banners, the constant cheering for your own team and booing of the opposition (if Wayne Rooney is taking a penalty he would receive dogs abuse as he's preparing, in Rugby there would be a respectful silence). Also in football the fans are segregated (home fans, away fans)..you don't get that in most other sports (in the US you don't get any away fans).

Again, there's nothing in this statement that shouldn't have occurred in Australia with the AFL or Rugby League. Both are everyman games and both involve significant cross-town rivalries with lots of home and away fans. Watch a game with 95,000 Essenden and Collingwood fans at the MCG and tell me that AFL isn't every bit as passion filled an everyman game with loads of tradition. AFL fans are just as involved; they make the banners their teams run through and hold up plenty flags and other things in the crowds themselves. The fact that the game doesn't generate the kind of sociopathic and misanthropic behaviour soccer does, doesn't make it less passionate, it makes it less stupid.

In this sense, soccer fans needing to be segregated isn't a reflection of class or tradition, but something the much slower, lower contact and lower scoring nature of the game generates. It's also a game in which the referee has the most indelible and decisive impact on the result. In no other form of football is the referee's decision making more likely to decide a result (a lot of others have video review), and I also think this adds to the tension, as you get a lot more blatantly unjust decisions costing teams games.

If there ain't any of this in Rugby league or AFL I would say its because neither have the tradition of football. Certainly rugby league in England...it's similarly working class, but there ain't the banners, the songs, chants, flags...and while there is rivalry it's a parochial game played amongst themselves so it doesnt have the varying regional hatred. Similarly AFL is predominantly a state of Victoria game, always playing the neighbours.

What you mean to say is they don't have the tradition of thuggery and idiocy of soccer; they both have plenty of their own tradition however. Australian Football in fact predates soccer, being officially codified 4 years before soccer in 1859, and it's not mainly a victorian game. A trip to Western Australia, Adelaide and even Sydney now, and you'll see the game is hardly just a victorian game. And even if it was, "playing the neighbours" is precisely what is supposed to generate the need for crowd segregation according to you.

This is why I just don't buy your argument. People try and trawl out this crap about it being working class and having more tradition, but it's all BS; plenty of other sports have just as much tradition and levels of popularity at home, but they just don't have soccers problems.
 
Mature response ("I don't like what he said...must be a troll").

Anyhoo, both games originate among the gentry, both games spread via British colonists during the Victorian era. Rugby (NZ, Aus, SA), Cricket to the same three, the Carribbean, and the Indian subcontinent. With Rugby the anomaly is France.

Two public school sports that have a tradition of good etiquette. What's the saying.."thats not cricket"..for poor behaviour. This is the explanation for the difference in etiquette between these two sports, and football.
 
Mature response ("I don't like what he said...must be a troll").

Anyhoo, both games originate among the gentry, both games spread via British colonists during the Victorian era. Rugby (NZ, Aus, SA), Cricket to the same three, the Carribbean, and the Indian subcontinent. With Rugby the anomaly is France.

Two public school sports that have a tradition of good etiquette. What's the saying.."thats not cricket"..for poor behaviour. This is the explanation for the difference in etiquette between these two sports, and football.

Has to be the most clueless poster since that idiot who started off the 'football is more popular than rugby....blah blah' thread.
Or could he/she be really cunning and have changed his/her name and started to re-post from their mother's basement?
 
This also just isn't true. If you go to New Zealand, Wales or pretty well anywhere in the Pacific Rugby is anything but the "jolly good shot old boy" sport you're talking about. In fact in NZ they used to talk about how they loved playing England because they took pleasure from dirtying up the stuck up-pommy private school boys nice white jumpers.

This is why I just don't buy your argument. People try and trawl out this crap about it being working class and having more tradition, but it's all BS; plenty of other sports have just as much tradition and levels of popularity at home, but they just don't have soccers problems.

We have income inequality too...but like Australia, we do not have a class system remotely near that of England. Your comments regards Rugby in Aus, NZ, Wales etc I'm not arguing with. It's what I believed. What is true, is the origin of the two sports in England, public school, the gentry, and the good etiquette it was founded on; those traditions are still there.

Regards AFL and Rugby league, are fans segregated? Do they mingle? I can't really comment on either to the extent I can with Union and cricket as I have experienced both of them in England. The bonhomie and "day out" aspect means the atmosphere is dead. The lack of tribalism means there ain't the intense rivalry. It doesn't matter as much.
 
Your comments regards Rugby in Aus, NZ, Wales etc I'm not arguing with. It's what I believed. What is true, is the origin of the two sports in England, public school, the gentry, and the good etiquette it was founded on; those traditions are still there.

There might be something in this, but I kinda doubt it... In Australia the sport was pretty private school for a long time, but less so now. Travel to NZ and it's pretty public school (and by public school I mean schools that are free and run by the government - can never understand why people in the UK call their private schools "public") and has been there long enough to develop their own cultural traditions.

Regards AFL and Rugby league, are fans segregated? Do they mingle? I can't really comment on either to the extent I can with Union and cricket as I have experienced both of them in England. The bonhomie and "day out" aspect means the atmosphere is dead. The lack of tribalism means there ain't the intense rivalry. It doesn't matter as much.

No, there isn't segregation in either game, because it's frankly never been necessary - not even at State of Origin matches where there is significant and long standing inter-state animosity and a lot of travelling support. This is an important point too; segregation in soccer occurred because fan violence was getting out of control, it wasn't like it was there from the start. It was never a fait accompli but rather something that the nature of the sport generated.

You ought to go to an ANZAC day clash in the NRL or AFL - the atmosphere at the AFL in particular is incredible (they started the concept and the NRL just followed), with the MCG being packed to the rafters (although, the AFL is one of the best attended sports in the world, so it often is). The fans mingle at both and whilst it can some times get a bit heated it never degenerates into gang warfare.

To be honest, most Australians are pretty derisive of soccer because we have developed an impression that the reason the fans are so violent is because the game itself is kinda soft and was only ever played by the weak kids with over-protective mothers in this country. That fact makes it seem less like the fans are violent because they're passionate and "working class" and more because they're mostly social rejects desperately trying to overcompensate for their childhood inability to mix it with the big boys in contact sports.
 
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Mature response ("I don't like what he said...must be a troll").

Anyhoo, both games originate among the gentry, both games spread via British colonists during the Victorian era. Rugby (NZ, Aus, SA), Cricket to the same three, the Carribbean, and the Indian subcontinent. With Rugby the anomaly is France.

Two public school sports that have a tradition of good etiquette. What's the saying.."thats not cricket"..for poor behaviour. This is the explanation for the difference in etiquette between these two sports, and football.

Here is a thought. You have been posting for 2 days and so far your continuing point which you have talked about on 3 different treads is that Rugby is a dull game watched by stuffy middle class english type people and Football is a great game full of drama and rivalries and is far more exciting. This would suggest to me that really you are a bored student (possibly middle class) who has recently started watching football to gain a bit of 'street' and now is trying to be cleaver by trolling rugby and cricket forums telling us all we are upper class morons.

But lets just indulge you a little bit...your point regarding the games originating from the gentry. Both Football and rugby originate from the same place. All cultures/nations had a type of team ball game where a ball was kicked or picked up commonly known as Football. In the 1800's there were 2 types football in England: Eton Rules and Rugby rules named after the public schools the rules came from. when the Football association was formed to create a standard league they decided to adopt the Eton rules as that was considered the better school...So was formed Association Football or Soccer and Rugby Football.

Cricket was the standard summer sport for most people in the british islands for about 400 years and was played mainly by regular working people on the local village common. The summer sport of the gentry was Polo.

Look mate you dont like Rugby fine I dont really like Football but do everyone a favour and go away. One day you will think how stupid you were to try and **** people off who never held any bad feeling towards yourself.
 
Your post was interesting (bar the last paragraph which was bs).

I was aware that Association football originated among the same folk as Rugby football. The diffence being football quickly became a sport for the working classes (Ebenezer Cobb Morley codified the rules in 1862), the FA was formed...and the league's founder members in 1888 (Preston, Accrington, Burnley etc.); working class towns, in complete contrast to Rugby football.

The British colonists came from middle class stock, and the two public school games (Rugby and cricket) were taken to the colonised lands. South Africa, NZ and Australia are identical with their adoption; the Indian subcontinent was different with only cricket being adopted due to the less physical nature of the sport (the Calcutta Cup is the one obvious Rugby reference).
 
So who exported Football then?

Also what is your problem with the middle classes? Are they not allowed to play sport or something?
 
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Your post was interesting (bar the last paragraph which was bs).

I was aware that Association football originated among the same folk as Rugby football. The diffence being football quickly became a sport for the working classes (Ebenezer Cobb Morley codified the rules in 1862), the FA was formed...and the league's founder members in 1888 (Preston, Accrington, Burnley etc.); working class towns, in complete contrast to Rugby football.

The British colonists came from middle class stock, and the two public school games (Rugby and cricket) were taken to the colonised lands. South Africa, NZ and Australia are identical with their adoption; the Indian subcontinent was different with only cricket being adopted due to the less physical nature of the sport (the Calcutta Cup is the one obvious Rugby reference).

Mate, what can I say? Every post your write is pretty well completely exclusive to England... it's just not like that in other places - particularly not Australia and NZ, where soccer is a pretentious middle class white game for people who are wannabe Euro-snobs.
 
Mate, what can I say? Every post your write is pretty well completely exclusive to England... it's just not like that in other places - particularly not Australia and NZ, where soccer is a pretentious middle class white game for people who are wannabe Euro-snobs.

To be fair sanzar its not much different here, Football is the most popular sport and the Middle class is the biggest class and you have to earn plenty of money to afford a season ticket at your average premier club. All this working man/posh man rubbish might have been relevent in the 1980's but its out of date now.
 
To be fair sanzar its not much different here, Football is the most popular sport and the Middle class is the biggest class and you have to earn plenty of money to afford a season ticket at your average premier club. All this working man/posh man rubbish might have been relevent in the 1980's but its out of date now.

Yeah fair call. And besides, how many "working man's games" have Russian billionaires as their benefactors?

if you go to the states it's even more the case. Soccer is almost exclusively the preserve of hipsters and pretentious middle class white people in the US. They have a minor league like we do, but the people's game is "football" (NFL).
 
Or Arab shiks.

Whatever else comes from the troll the fact is Football and footballers are so far removed from ordinary people it lost all its "honest working man" credentials along time ago. Footballers strut around on 100k plus a week funded by sheep who wasting their money on season tickets and replica shirts that they wear to show they "support Man U" because they think its cool to do so. As for all the rivally crap troll seems to think is so good one day he might wake up and realise its all a big money generator for the red tops who feed on the same sheep the football clubs do.

Give me rugby any day it may not make the headlines, the players might not make as much money and the songs sang by the fans might be crap but I would rather that then the grossly over-developed, media driven circus that is Football.
 

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