Scrum resets

[Ids1978]

Not defending it I am just saying it happens and I have done it once myself. I was just going against what you said.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Not defending it I am just saying it happens and I have done it once myself. I was just going against what you said.

i guess im just lucky not so have come up against players like yourself

 

[Ids1978]

I guess.

Why do you think foul play in a scrum should only be a free kick and not a pen?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I guess.

Why do you think foul play in a scrum should only be a free kick and not a pen?

as i explained in my experience foul play as described was rare to none existent, most to all i have been involved with was down to

accident, loose footing or something and so a reset is fine

or

down to a completely dominant scrum overpowering, back pedaling, tripping collapsing or popping

in those situations no one has actually committed a foul and so i have always struggled with awarding a penalty

so if they've won the ball legally,...and the reason for a scrum is to win the ball..give them the ball and play on

 

[Ids1978]

So there would be no penalty try for a collapsed scrum stopping a push over try?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

So there would be no penalty try for a collapsed scrum stopping a push over try?

personally, if its just due to one scrum being stronger than another, no, i dont think not being strong enough is something to be penalised for

if you can see clearly someone collapsing it then sure but as i say, everyone i played with knew you were risking a penalty try and a card...so whats there to gain? if you're scrumming 5m form touch why risk giving them one under the posts and maybe end up down a man

 

[Ids1978]

Well let's just agree to disagree

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Scrums do go down because players slip etc, but at the top level I'm sure that front rows are coached to drop the scrum if they don't get the engagement right. There's no other explanation and it's clear, bloody dangerous, foul play.

All the arsing around with the pre engagement protocols really doesn't help though. A quick bind say 5 seconds from starting to cuddle the hooker to engagement with opposition and then put in within a further 3 seconds is achievable. Putting the ball in straight would really help too - if you make a proper contest for the ball, skill will come back into play. Not just the hooker striking on their ball and having a chance on opposition ball, but the props will also have a slightly different mindset as they will need to help their hooker more rather than just concentrate on shoving.

It makes me cry when I see how anal refs are on certain aspects of play while allowing RL style feeds.

 

[ncurd]

Don't reset Scrums, The referee make a decision of whether its a penalty or not if its not a penalty free kick to the team putting ball in no allowed to be taken as a Scrum.

EDIT: should note for this to work referee must be harsh on giving penalties. Only issue is they might become a RNG for penalties but honestly thats all they now anyway, teams aren't trying to restart the game with more space for the backs they are trying to win penalties.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Add "drive" to the scrum process
Crouch,
Bind,
Set,
Drive

Set being them coming together but no hit - which is where most collapsing is. The ref already calls for the 9 to put the ball in so it's basically the same - the scrum is set and stable and then they can drive/the 9 can put the ball in.

 

[Ids1978]

Add "drive" to the scrum process
Crouch,
Bind,
Set,
Drive

Set being them coming together but no hit - which is where most collapsing is. The ref already calls for the 9 to put the ball in so it's basically the same - the scrum is set and stable and then they can drive/the 9 can put the ball in.

You can't drive before the ball goes in. If you have the better scrum and you are going forward the the 9 puts in you might as well just feed the ball.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You can't drive before the ball goes in.

Yeah, but they do

I'm more on about removing the hit - stop the referee telling the 9 when to put the ball in and say they can feed the ball anytime after the "drive" call.

 

[Ids1978]

The pack take too long to bind together. They should have a time limit on the scrum bind at higher levels. At lower level where fitness level are low this should be ignored. 30 -45 seconds should be plenty of time.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Add "drive" to the scrum process
Crouch,
Bind,
Set,
Drive

Set being them coming together but no hit - which is where most collapsing is. The ref already calls for the 9 to put the ball in so it's basically the same - the scrum is set and stable and then they can drive/the 9 can put the ball in.

They did have the four step process less than 10 years ago. I like it but it was removed because it took longer to set up. I don't mind it, think the 'Set' and 'Drive' call need changing but the sequence of four steps is needed. Again I keep repeating, onus should be on the referees to get it right.

Naturally you will get Props who's feet will slip (not intentionally) and will need a reset. In most cases you can see when it is a slip and not, punish the side that constantly takes it to ground.

If the scrum hits the deck and the ball is at the 8s feet and the scrum collapse is not dangerous then the 9/8 should be made to play the ball if no indiscretion has happened.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If the scrum hits the deck and the ball is at the 8s feet and the scrum collapse is not dangerous then the 9/8 should be made to play the ball if no indiscretion has happened.

This is another big bug bear of mine - when the ball is at the 8s feet and the 9 refuses to use it because he wants the pen

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

My 2 cents:

1) Front rows definitely do collapse the scrum intentionally. A huge chunk of scrum resets happen before the ball is even in so they are just pratting about trying to get some advantage.
2) The reason for a lot of the pratting about is that winning a penalty at the scrum is far more valuable than winning the scrum
3) Therefore increasing the rate of penalties and cards will, in my opinion, make scrums even worse to the extent they operate as little more than mechanisms to get penalties and cards with no desire to be used as a platform to restart the game. At this point there is no reason to have them any more.

For the above reason, I am against increasing the sanction at scrums and believe the way to solve it is to reduce the means of collapse before the ball goes in and to increase the value of a completed scrum relative to a penalty. My solution is:

1) When set is called, the 2 sides come together but the "hit" MUST be removed. This is where the silly buggers happen and where most collapses happen. The 2 sides should be taking the weight and properly positioned to push but there should be no pushing until the ball is in.
2) The scrum half should have 3 seconds to feed the ball from the time the ref steps aside from the tunnel.
3) Once the ball is in then the 2 sides can push.

In addition I'd say the scrum half of the defending team should be required to stand further back so they cannot simply tackle a player the second they pick up the ball. Personally I think they should stand behind the back foot of the 8. This should increase the potential gain for the attacking team if they get the ball out. I don't think this would completely solve it but I think it would go a long way to addressing the problem of scrums being used to get penalties, not restart the game.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

There wasn't anything desperate about my actions. I was in control of the situation. He was trying to hinge the scrum to bring it down on his own under pressure trying to stop the drive.

Maybe because I have played front row longer you I have seen a bit more. I have played for over 25 years and rugby has changed a lot over the years.

Saying that you were in control of an intentional scrum collapsing is like driving your car up the wrong side of the motorway while claiming it's okay because you were in control of your own vehicle. You're still screwing over everyone else around you.

Anyone who intentionally collapses a scrum is a scumbag and shouldn't be allowed on a rugby pitch.

 

[Ids1978]

That was once in over 25 years. If you want to call people names did it face to face not behind a keyboard we are not hear for name calling. You want there so you don't know how it happen and to compare it to driving down the wrong way on a motorway is stupid.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

My 2 cents:

1) Front rows definitely do collapse the scrum intentionally. A huge chunk of scrum resets happen before the ball is even in so they are just pratting about trying to get some advantage.
2) The reason for a lot of the pratting about is that winning a penalty at the scrum is far more valuable than winning the scrum
3) Therefore increasing the rate of penalties and cards will, in my opinion, make scrums even worse to the extent they operate as little more than mechanisms to get penalties and cards with no desire to be used as a platform to restart the game. At this point there is no reason to have them any more.

For the above reason, I am against increasing the sanction at scrums and believe the way to solve it is to reduce the means of collapse before the ball goes in and to increase the value of a completed scrum relative to a penalty. My solution is:

1) When set is called, the 2 sides come together but the "hit" MUST be removed. This is where the silly buggers happen and where most collapses happen. The 2 sides should be taking the weight and properly positioned to push but there should be no pushing until the ball is in.
2) The scrum half should have 3 seconds to feed the ball from the time the ref steps aside from the tunnel.
3) Once the ball is in then the 2 sides can push.

In addition I'd say the scrum half of the defending team should be required to stand further back so they cannot simply tackle a player the second they pick up the ball. Personally I think they should stand behind the back foot of the 8. This should increase the potential gain for the attacking team if they get the ball out. I don't think this would completely solve it but I think it would go a long way to addressing the problem of scrums being used to get penalties, not restart the game.

Your solution is actually what it should be in the first place, just that it is not being enforced! Well point two ... the scrum half must put it in immediately after the ref has called for it. But again this is not enforced, was when the law change came out. But as ever other things take priority and it is quickly forgotten.

Saying that you were in control of an intentional scrum collapsing is like driving your car up the wrong side of the motorway while claiming it's okay because you were in control of your own vehicle. You're still screwing over everyone else around you.

Anyone who intentionally collapses a scrum is a scumbag and shouldn't be allowed on a rugby pitch.

No need for the name calling like.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That was once in over 25 years. If you want to call people names did it face to face not behind a keyboard we are not hear for name calling. You want there so you don't know how it happen and to compare it to driving down the wrong way on a motorway is stupid.

Zoom call?