Saders/Reds Flyhalf Replacement

[SomeOke]

Hey all, I don't really know the right place for this but I'm new so bare with me if it isn't.

I was basically hoping to get someone more knowledgeable to give me some sort of clue about who will be filling in for Quade Cooper and Dan Carter at least for the beginning of super rugby.
I heard it was Michael Harris and Tyler Bladendaal, respectively but I don't know anything about them apart from their names. What kind of players are they? Will they kick for the Reds/Saders? What kind of impact will it have on the team especially considering the big shoes they have to fill?

My knowledge of NZ and Aus depth isn't as good as I would like.

Discuss.

 

[d1e1m]

For Crusaders, Bleyendahl and Tom Taylor are the best options, with Dagg as a third option. THey would also be the likeliest place kickers, Taylor proven himself capable at ITM level and Dagg has take kicks for Highlanders at Super level. Bleyendahl hasn't inspired much confidence in me at ITM level, saw his vids at u20s where he did run and control the game well but seemed lost last year and never settled. Tom Taylor seems like a future Carter, silky running, has a decent boot on him and looks classy in play.

 

[William18]

Harris had a few chances last year. He played some good games and is a more than adequate replacement. He used to play for North Harbour, was unwanted by New Zealand franchises so went across the ditch.

Blyendaal was a star at the U-20 world cup and was nominated for IRB Junior player of the year. Since then he hasn't had many opportunities only playing a few ITM Cup games for Canterbury. It's still too early to tell with him. I'm not a big fan of Tom Taylor. The few times I have seen him play he looked selfish which is not what you need from a number 10. He's probably a better second five.

 

[Darwin]

d1e1m summed up the Crusaders options well. While Dagg would certainly do a good job at 10, but will almost certainly start at fullback meaning it will be between Taylor (who is 22) and Bleyendaal (who is 21) for the Crusaders 10 jersey. Taylor, who is also capable at 12 or 15, has looked the most composed thus far, but Bleyendaal does have a huge amount of potential (and has an uncanny resemblance to Dan Carter). Both a good ball runners (Taylor possibly slightly better), and solid tactical kickers (with Bleyendaal having a slight edge here), and are solid on defense - the main this both of them lack is experience at this level.

In terms of the Reds, Mike Harris looks like he will take the 10 jersey while Cooper is out injured. Harris is a young (23) New Zealand born and breed player, who moved to the Reds last year as he couldn't get a contract with the Blues. He's another player than can player multiple positions, including 10, 12, and 15. He is generally a pretty reliable player, but perhaps lacks a bit of 'x-factor'. He's solid on defense, and takes the ball well to the line, but lacks a bit of pace. His kicking, both from hand and at goal, is generally pretty solid, but isn't outstanding. He certainly wont do a poor job for the Reds, but he is a very different player to more talented (but more erractic) Cooper.

 

[Tomsey]

Coach Ewen McKenzie has identified Harris, new Wallabies duo Tapuai and Ben Lucas, Jono Lance, Dallan Murphy and 17-year-old Adelaide product Ulupano Seuteni as his five-eighth options.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...uade-cooper-20120113-1pyde.html#ixzz1lTYj93TV​

I pulled this from and article in an australian news paper who had interviewed ewen mckenzie on the subject. he has basically listed every one in the extended squad that can play flyhalf. i'd say the most realistic options are mike harris and ben lucas. mikes harris's credentials have already been listed and he did perform well for the reds last season, albeit at full back and inside centre. if i were me i'd play ben lucas there. people seem to forget that ben lucas was the hair apparent to elton flatley's numer 10 jersey at the reds before coopers emergence. he was preferred to cooper throughout their australian schoolboys career and when they played for the east coast aces together in now defunct apc. over the last few years he had converted himself into a scrum half and now a full back to find a place in the starting xv because of cooper and genia dominating selections in the halves, but he is a very handy ball player and goal kicker.
in my opinion tapuai would be a fairway down the list as he is more of a centre and dallan murphy and ulupano seuteni are too young at the moment. jono lance is a handy club player and played well when called on by the reds last year, again as a fullback. he is a chance but is likely to be edged out by lucas or harris.

 

[TNT88]

Harris will most likely be the Reds first choice #10.

 

[Darwin]

I pulled this from and article in an australian news paper who had interviewed ewen mckenzie on the subject. he has basically listed every one in the extended squad that can play flyhalf. i'd say the most realistic options are mike harris and ben lucas. mikes harris's credentials have already been listed and he did perform well for the reds last season, albeit at full back and inside centre. if i were me i'd play ben lucas there. people seem to forget that ben lucas was the hair apparent to elton flatley's numer 10 jersey at the reds before coopers emergence. he was preferred to cooper throughout their australian schoolboys career and when they played for the east coast aces together in now defunct apc. over the last few years he had converted himself into a scrum half and now a full back to find a place in the starting xv because of cooper and genia dominating selections in the halves, but he is a very handy ball player and goal kicker.
in my opinion tapuai would be a fairway down the list as he is more of a centre and dallan murphy and ulupano seuteni are too young at the moment. jono lance is a handy club player and played well when called on by the reds last year, again as a fullback. he is a chance but is likely to be edged out by lucas or harris.

Good point on Lucas. He is a good young player, but in some ways I feel his versatility counts against him, as seems to get moved around so much he can't establish himself in one position. He's the second best halfback in the squad, the second best fullback behind Morahan (though there is not much between them in my opinion... this is assuming Hynes is out), and is behind Cooper (when fit) and Harris as a 10 option.

As you say, Tapuai is almost certain to start at 12 (where he started to look very good for the Reds last season).

 

[Tomsey]

Development....

Kiwi favourite Mike Harris has the first crack at Quade Cooper's No.10 jersey but Wallabies tourist Ben Lucas will fight him all the way to Queensland's Super Rugby opener against NSW.
Reds coach Ewen McKenzie will start the robust Harris at five-eighth in Saturday night's first trial against the Brumbies in Cairns, with utility back Lucas to replace him at halftime. Since superstar Cooper ruptured knee ligaments at the World Cup in October, Harris has been seen as the natural replacement on the basis of his 2011 breakthrough at inside centre.
But Lucas has also impressed coaches in the pre-season and can fill the dual playmaking and goalkicking role by outpointing the former New Zealand under-20 representative in trials against the Brumbies and Western Force.The fact the season kicks off with three interstate derbies, highlighted by the February 25 clash with the Waratahs, McKenzie has stressed he'll select the form No.10 from the two auditions.''Training's something you can go with but in the end there's nothing like the heat of battle,'' McKenzie said today.''When it's a fair dinkum game you can assess it best from that and that's what we'll do.''Rather than be downcast by Cooper's absence for at least six matches, McKenzie believes Harris or Lucas will give Queensland an element of surprise.''We think there's some exciting stuff that we can play around with tactically and both players offer us something,'' he said. ''We want to share that and see what they've got.''A revelation at inside centre in 2011 before his season was ruined by a knee injury, Harris admitted he wasn't looking to replicate Cooper's left-field attacking flair.''Quade's pretty flamboyant with his trickery but I haven't played a game for a long time so for me it will be about doing the basics right,'' the 23-year-old said.Although a dark horse for the role, second-string halfback Lucas was groomed for No.10 in 2010 when Cooper was sidelined in the pre-season before making way and then taking his chance at fullback last year.McKenzie has selected leaders James Horwill and Will Genia among seven Wallabies on the bench and named returning prop Ben Daley as captain of a starting side containing three Test players. Among the most intriguing selections, initial playmaking contenders Jono Lance and Dallan Murphy will play at outside centre and fullback respectively.
AAP
​

​

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...quades-spot-20120208-1rdl8.html#ixzz1lmllSzrI​

 

[Larksea]

got to admit I'm keeping an eye on Tom Taylor. Honestly I really like what I have seen of him so far, seems like a great natural player. One game in the ITM cup I remember he basically did everything - Kicked goals, setup trys, scored and defended superbly - he was mind blowing good though he looked out on his feet the last 10 min of the game. Most of the game he stuck out very much like All Blacks tend to do sometimes and at the very least that performance assured he would get a super contract IMO.

 

[Darwin]

got to admit I'm keeping an eye on Tom Taylor. Honestly I really like what I have seen of him so far, seems like a great natural player. One game in the ITM cup I remember he basically did everything - Kicked goals, setup trys, scored and defended superbly - he was mind blowing good though he looked out on his feet the last 10 min of the game. Most of the game he stuck out very much like All Blacks tend to do sometimes and at the very least that performance assured he would get a super contract IMO.

The big question with Taylor is: what is his best position? To me he is best suited to being a creative 12 (ala McAlister/Mauger) and he played some great rugby for Canterbury there, though he also looked great when he played at fullback too. I'm not convinced about him as a 10, as I'm not sure whether he has the ability to control the game by himself (yet). Unfortunately for him he may struggle to get a starting spot for the Crusaders this season. His best chance to get a few starts will be early in the season when Carter is out; if he can impress then he will almost certainly assure himself a spot in the bench as his versatility would be and added bonus. He is certainly an option at 12, but would be behind Ryan Crotty (who I rate very highly) and Adam Whitelock (whose best position is actually 12) at this stage.

 

[Larksea]

yeah I dont expect Tom Taylor to see much gametime either. And I get a feeling crotty is going to shine this year and maybe even push for All Blacks selection - even more so when SBW goes back to league for 2013 which at this stage must be ~95% sure.

Hope he doesn't get stuck in a Crusaders log Jam the same way Brett & Slade did, he should move to the chiefs after SBW's departure!

 

[UilamOsa]

yeah I dont expect Tom Taylor to see much gametime either. And I get a feeling crotty is going to shine this year and maybe even push for All Blacks selection - even more so when SBW goes back to league for 2013 which at this stage must be ~95% sure.

Hope he doesn't get stuck in a Crusaders log Jam the same way Brett & Slade did, he should move to the chiefs after SBW's departure!

Does that mean we (The Blues) can have Bleyendahl?

As much as I believe in Anscombe, from what i've seen - Bleyendahl is pretty special.

Also for the sake of NZ Rugby, it'll be good having Taylor running around at 12. I think he's more a 10/12 rather than a 12/10. In a few years time, it may well be a position that we are short of.

 

[Larksea]

I dunno, personally Anscombe has impressed me more than Bleyendahl but Barrett has impressed me a lot more than either of them. Barrett has an element of "holy crap he's good" about him, kinda get the feeling he could jump Slade & Cruden in the pecking order within a couple of years.

 

[Peat]

I'd agree that Barrett seems to be the special one out of the three based on age-grade rugby.

 

[Darwin]

I dunno, personally Anscombe has impressed me more than Bleyendahl but Barrett has impressed me a lot more than either of them. Barrett has an element of "holy crap he's good" about him, kinda get the feeling he could jump Slade & Cruden in the pecking order within a couple of years.

I never quite understood what everyone was raving about with Anscombe - he was a phenomenal kicker, but I thought Bleyendaal was far more impressive the year before (here he is destroying Australia in the final). I'd go as far as to suggest that Bleyendaal was the most impressive (and complete) 10 I've seen for NZ at under 20 level: Cruden (despite having a good tournament) lacked a kicking game and was slightly inconsistent, Kirkpatrick had a very solid all round game but lacked a bit of spark, Anscombe was similar to Kirkpatrick but with a better kicking game and less of a running game. Barrett was incredibly impressive at fullback, but it is hard to compare the performance of players in different positions (though I have always thought Barrett looks better when he is playing at 10...).

Bleyendaal has yet to show his U20 form at provincial level, but he hasn't had many chances at all yet. After this season of Super Rugby we should have a better idea of whether he is going to be a Kirkpatrick (a talented age-grade star who has struggled to step up to the next level) or a Cruden.

 

[psychic duck]

I never quite understood what everyone was raving about with Anscombe - he was a phenomenal kicker, but I thought Bleyendaal was far more impressive the year before (here he is destroying Australia in the final). I'd go as far as to suggest that Bleyendaal was the most impressive (and complete) 10 I've seen for NZ at under 20 level: Cruden (despite having a good tournament) lacked a kicking game and was slightly inconsistent, Kirkpatrick had a very solid all round game but lacked a bit of spark, Anscombe was similar to Kirkpatrick but with a better kicking game and less of a running game. Barrett was incredibly impressive at fullback, but it is hard to compare the performance of players in different positions (though I have always thought Barrett looks better when he is playing at 10...).

Bleyendaal has yet to show his U20 form at provincial level, but he hasn't had many chances at all yet. After this season of Super Rugby we should have a better idea of whether he is going to be a Kirkpatrick (a talented age-grade star who has struggled to step up to the next level) or a Cruden.

When I saw Stephen Brett fill in for Carter at the beginning of the 2007 Super 14 season, I thought he was quality, and a future All Black (although always behind Carter of course), what happened to him after that?

 

[Larksea]

When I saw Stephen Brett fill in for Carter at the beginning of the 2007 Super 14 season, I thought he was quality, and a future All Black (although always behind Carter of course), what happened to him after that?

my View on Stephen Brett

- he only ever seemed to be a 50% goal kicker
- He was shy on defense, overall a poor defender
- for every brilliant play he created, and yes he did create a lot of them. He would make a number of silly mistakes, kick a ball out on the full, silly knock on, bad missed tackle you name it.

IMO when he was young he had killer speed and acceleration and he burned defensive lines but he kind of "filled out" became much bigger and bulkier and lost that edge that made him so deadly.

When Brett first came on the scene I honestly thought he would be a player of similar quality to carter, I thought Brett and Carter would end up the All Blacks 10-12 combination...

 

[Darwin]

When I saw Stephen Brett fill in for Carter at the beginning of the 2007 Super 14 season, I thought he was quality, and a future All Black (although always behind Carter of course), what happened to him after that?

Opposition teams discovered that he couldn't tackle, had a limited kicking game (and is a hopeless goal-kicker), and cracked when even the slightest amount of pressure was applied to him. Once teams discovered he had these weaknesses they were able to expose him at Super Rugby level.

EDIT:

my View on Stephen Brett

- he only ever seemed to be a 50% goal kicker
- He was shy on defense, overall a poor defender
- for every brilliant play he created, and yes he did create a lot of them. He would make a number of silly mistakes, kick a ball out on the full, silly knock on, bad missed tackle you name it.

IMO when he was young he had killer speed and acceleration and he burned defensive lines but he kind of "filled out" became much bigger and bulkier and lost that edge that made him so deadly.

When Brett first came on the scene I honestly thought he would be a player of similar quality to carter, I thought Brett and Carter would end up the All Blacks 10-12 combination...

A great summary there. I think your third point - that for every great play he did he would make a number of silly mistakes - is important. Because of this he normally looked great on highlight reels (as he could do some brilliant things as you say), but if you watched him play a full game he was often very poor.

 

[Larksea]

I never quite understood what everyone was raving about with Anscombe - he was a phenomenal kicker, but I thought Bleyendaal was far more impressive the year before (here he is destroying Australia in the final). I'd go as far as to suggest that Bleyendaal was the most impressive (and complete) 10 I've seen for NZ at under 20 level: Cruden (despite having a good tournament) lacked a kicking game and was slightly inconsistent, Kirkpatrick had a very solid all round game but lacked a bit of spark, Anscombe was similar to Kirkpatrick but with a better kicking game and less of a running game. Barrett was incredibly impressive at fullback, but it is hard to compare the performance of players in different positions (though I have always thought Barrett looks better when he is playing at 10...).

Bleyendaal has yet to show his U20 form at provincial level, but he hasn't had many chances at all yet. After this season of Super Rugby we should have a better idea of whether he is going to be a Kirkpatrick (a talented age-grade star who has struggled to step up to the next level) or a Cruden.

I'm going more on ITM cup than U20, Bleyendaal & Anscombe both got a lot of game time in the last ITM cup.

 

[Darwin]

I'm going more on ITM cup than U20, Bleyendaal & Anscombe both got a lot of game time in the last ITM cup.

Oh, fair enough then - my mistake, I for some reason (wrongly) assumed you were talking about age-grade rugby! I will certainly agree that Anscombe looked more comfortable at ITM Cup level than Bleyendaal last season (and that Barrett looked better than either).