[RWC 2023 Final] New Zealand v South Africa 28/10/23 20:00 BST

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The RWC is more than just the final 80 minutes. It's the culmination of 4 years of hard work, dedication and preparation. And in a tournament where South Africa was in the toughest RWC pool ever (three teams in the top-5) and playing literally every other country in the top-6 of World Rugby rankings, they still came out on top after losing their superstar outside center (Am), superstar hooker (Marx), backup hooker in the final (Mbonambi) and only got their no 1 fly-half back halfway through the tournament. Despite all that, they still prevailed. They still came out on top, to become the first country to win it 4 times. And this coming after a Lions Series win 2 years ago, and the previous RWC win 4 years ago. Only the 2nd team to successfully defend their world cup.

Yet all I see from others is how lucky they were, and the refs suck, and rugby sucks, and Springboks are boring, they don't deserve it because it was all close games bla bla bla.

Refs? How about the Barrett try coming off a knock on by Tele'a? Kolisi getting penalised against England when it was a legal turnover? The ball being available in the maul against Ireland and O'Keefe blowing the whistle? If you are goint to nitpick every little thing, you can argue the refs are favouring literally any team.

Boring? How about beating the hosts in the quarters by scoring 4 tries? How is that boring? The final also wasn't boring. But I guess if there aren't 17 tries in a game, it's considered boring. Maybe rugby isn't the problem. Maybe it's the unrealistic expectations from fans.

Close games don't make you a deserved champion you say? Weird how nobody complained about New Zealand beating South Africa by only 2 points in 2015 or France by only 1 point in 2011. To be clear: I rather win a game by 1 point than coast to a 30-point victory. Those games are boring. I don't give a flying **** about a 55-10 win because it's like watching a highlight reel. There's no tension, no passion, no stakes. THAT is boring. If anything, winning close games makes it a more earned victory than a bunch of blowout victories.

I guess it's just society nowadays. Everything has to be downplayed, analysed to death just so we have something to complain about. The final could have been France-Ireland with a 58-52 score and there would still be complaints.

Why are South African euphoric? Because they won what matters most. For a record 4th time. That's why.

This is a super important point. It's not easy to ensure you'll peak at the times whn it matters most. I feel like England and Ireland have got this wrong a few times.

Overall I'd love for more variety in who wins this thing, and also getting to the final - but in a way the fact that NZ and SA have kept it to themselves for 20 years just reinforces how hard it is to win and how special a prize it is. Because the issue is the moment Wales win it, it instantly becomes worthless

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Here's something that was mentioned on the Sky NZ broadcast at one point. The All Blacks don't score tries in the last quarter of the game when they play against T1 teams.

Last score in games by the All Blacks in RWC games against top-tier nations since they won it all in 2015:

2019 vs RSA: 27th min
2019 vs ENG: 57th min
2023 vs FRA: 43rd min
2023 vs IRE: 53rd min
2023 vs ARG: 73rd min
2023 vs RSA: 58th min

The only game where they did, was a blowout win in the 2023 semi final against Argentina.

 

[40/20]

Here's something that was mentioned on the Sky NZ broadcast at one point. The All Blacks don't score tries in the last quarter of the game when they play against T1 teams.

Last score in games by the All Blacks in RWC games against top-tier nations since they won it all in 2015:

2019 vs RSA: 27th min
2019 vs ENG: 57th min
2023 vs FRA: 43rd min
2023 vs IRE: 53rd min
2023 vs ARG: 73rd min
2023 vs RSA: 58th min

The only game where they did, was a blowout win in the 2023 semi final against Argentina.

Seems to be missing a couple of games from that list… unless Sky excluded them for some reason.

But for the sake of completeness:

2019 QF v IRE: 79th min try (J Barrett)
2019 3/4 playoff v WAL: 76th min try (Mounga)

Were they drawing some kind of conclusion from all that though?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

missing out games that dont fit the narrative and only looking at one team kind of makes this look like one of the stats that dont mean much, do the other Tier 1 teams sore late in all games? or is it kind of the case that when Tier 1 teams meet things get really tight late in the game and scoring isn;t common

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Seems to be missing a couple of games from that list… unless Sky excluded them for some reason.

But for the sake of completeness:

2019 QF v IRE: 79th min try (J Barrett)
2019 3/4 playoff v WAL: 76th min try (Mounga)

Were they drawing some kind of conclusion from all that though?

Not sure. I'll have to look it up.

 

[Jimbo]

The RWC is more than just the final 80 minutes. It's the culmination of 4 years of hard work, dedication and preparation. And in a tournament where South Africa was in the toughest RWC pool ever (three teams in the top-5) and playing literally every other country in the top-6 of World Rugby rankings, they still came out on top after losing their superstar outside center (Am), superstar hooker (Marx), backup hooker in the final (Mbonambi) and only got their no 1 fly-half back halfway through the tournament. Despite all that, they still prevailed. They still came out on top, to become the first country to win it 4 times. And this coming after a Lions Series win 2 years ago, and the previous RWC win 4 years ago. Only the 2nd team to successfully defend their world cup.

Yet all I see from others is how lucky they were, and the refs suck, and rugby sucks, and Springboks are boring, they don't deserve it because it was all close games bla bla bla.

Refs? How about the Barrett try coming off a knock on by Tele'a? Kolisi getting penalised against England when it was a legal turnover? The ball being available in the maul against Ireland and O'Keefe blowing the whistle? If you are goint to nitpick every little thing, you can argue the refs are favouring literally any team.

Boring? How about beating the hosts in the quarters by scoring 4 tries? How is that boring? The final also wasn't boring. But I guess if there aren't 17 tries in a game, it's considered boring. Maybe rugby isn't the problem. Maybe it's the unrealistic expectations from fans.

Close games don't make you a deserved champion you say? Weird how nobody complained about New Zealand beating South Africa by only 2 points in 2015 or France by only 1 point in 2011. To be clear: I rather win a game by 1 point than coast to a 30-point victory. Those games are boring. I don't give a flying **** about a 55-10 win because it's like watching a highlight reel. There's no tension, no passion, no stakes. THAT is boring. If anything, winning close games makes it a more earned victory than a bunch of blowout victories.

I guess it's just society nowadays. Everything has to be downplayed, analysed to death just so we have something to complain about. The final could have been France-Ireland with a 58-52 score and there would still be complaints.

Why are South African euphoric? Because they won what matters most. For a record 4th time. That's why.

I'd agree with most of it, I think there is some validity in the fact that SA appear (to me personally) to be allowed to lay in rucks for excessive periods of time where most teams get pinged and generally find creative ways to slow rucks speeds and prevent super quick ball.
I think another reason people talk about SA and the reffing is those knockouts is SA getting an outcome on situations they perhaps shouldn't have in the closing moments, these will always be more memorable and create more of a talking point than had they occurred in earlier passages of play.
Final ref point: Rassie initially started the scrutinising of reffing, can you really expect an average opposition fan to not go down that route now, is it not in the least bit conceivable that this affected decisions refs did or didn't make sub consciously or other wise?

None of this is to take anything away from South Africa, or upset the SA fan base, I enjoy the way they play although I'd like to see a bit more running and creativity from their backline, we know they probably have it but don't tend to unleash it often against tougher opposition but all said and done they are worthy World Cup winners and to see a country united in the way it appears to from the outside is awesome!

 

[Jer1cho]

There is a skill in winning coin flip games. South Africa constantly putting themselves in games and finding a way to win is what great teams do. Sometimes you need to scrap close wins when you are having a bad day.

Especially in a time where rugby is more competitive than ever before.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Especially in a time where rugby is more competitive than ever before.

2027 is going to be spicy I think. Despite SA and NZ in the final I don't see a restore of "SH dominance".

This is massive crystal balling but I think forward 4 years and NZ and France are leading the chasing pack. Ireland and SA a tad less than what we are now but certainly a shout. England and Aus (at home if for no other reason) IMO also part of the chasers alongside SA and Ire.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

2027 is going to be spicy I think. Despite SA and NZ in the final I don't see a restore of "SH dominance".

This is massive crystal balling but I think forward 4 years and NZ and France are leading the chasing pack. Ireland and SA a tad less than what we are now but certainly a shout. England and Aus (at home if for no other reason) IMO also part of the chasers alongside SA and Ire.

It's funny how similar the rebuild for Ireland and SA will be:

Replace talismanic player: Sexton and probably Etzebeth, who will probably be a sub or squad player by then.

Replace talismanic captain: Sexton and Kolisi.

And phase out or reduce the roles of nearly half the squad.

Both have an exceptional player base and forward thinking management with great talent ID.

Next year's tour will likely be the start of a fun process for both set ups and is honestly the nearest international rugby I'm looking forward to.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

The All blacks know the corruption that went on and how South Africa brought their victory.

 

[Becca]

Well the AB's have lodged a complaint about the reffing with World Rugby now.

 

[ncurd]

Well the AB's have lodged a complaint about the reffing with World Rugby now.

Seriously? WTF?

 

[Becca]

Just read it online…..

 

[BrokenWing]

Do they not know you have to make a video?

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Ever since the final whistle, it's been nothing but complaining, crying, and conspiracy theories. The fact that NZRU is now filing an official complaint makes it even worse.

Missing a conversion and a penalty, choosing to kick for the corner instead of points, a justified red card and yellow card, are the reason they lost.

They had their chances to win it. They couldn't. I don't remember any other nation complaining this much after a lost final.

Yet no one brings up the knock on by Tele'a leading up to Barrett's try. Or that Frizzell's actions that cost him 10 minutes, cost the Springboks their hooker for 78 minutes. Stuff like that happens. It's a game of millimeters. You win some, you lose some.

And don't even get me started on the death threats addressed to Wayne Barnes, that his wife has received. I respect the All Blacks, because they always are gracious and respectful no matter the outcome. That bubble has now burst. That's no longer the case. I know there are fans who are level-headed but more so than ever, those are the overwhelming minority this time. I understand getting emotional over this as a fan, but the discourse online and in the media has been embarrassing.

On Cane's red card: This is all the result of Super Rugby being too lenient for the sake of entertainment. That mindset carries over to test rugby for players and then all of a sudden they're confronted with stricter officiating. That doesn't make the officiating the problem.

FWIW: The **** Rassie Erasmus pulled in previous years is just as embarrassing. I don't have time for that childish behaviour either. Rugby is supposed to be different. The fanbase as a whole is supposed to be unified, and gracious. That's just not the case this time around.

It's sad that this is how the tournament is being talked about afterwards.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are they filing a complaint?
Article I read said that they'd put in their questions form, that every coach does after every game, for explanation on some decisions

 

[ncurd]

And don't even get me started on the death threats addressed to Wayne Barnes, that his wife has received.

Its not the first time from a SH side...sadly.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Its not the first time from a SH side...sadly.

Yeah, it's disgusting behaviour.

 

[40/20]

Are they filing a complaint?
Article I read said that they'd put in their questions form, that every coach does after every game, for explanation on some decisions

Yes that's what I read too - but I had to get past the sensationalist headline first.

 

[saulan]

SuperSport confirmed the second edition of chasing the sun. Would've thought they'd change the name, but really looking forward to this after how well done the first one was.