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Rugby Europe Championship 2018

In summary, bleep happens, penalise any Spanish players who offended and learn from this scenario in the future.
That is what will happen, but that's would be attacking the symptoms and not the source of the problem.

Someone made a (couple of) very stupid decision(s), which resulted in some spanish players loosing the plot and making an even more stupid decision.

The thing is, although i disagree, i can understand the spanish guys losing the plot. This is a once in a lifetime moment for them. Stakes are high, you see all that effort go to waste, unfairly, well, i can understand... Again, i am not justifying, i am just explaining.

And this is not a second division friendly game between U15s in the middle of nowhere. This are two european national teams playing for what ended up being a spot at a world cup in what many consider a few of the trully global world sports.
From an organizational point of view this is unacceptable.

Think of all those National Rugby Unions in tier 3/4 who see this. Why even bother?
 
If the ref wasn't on the Fix (paid or out of national honor) I really do feel bad for him.

I've screwed a team in a national qualifier and felt like **** for awhile. Refs have their bad games from time to time and it's not something easy to get over. It's made worse when people can call out conflicts of interests afterwards, and this is on the international stage.
 
One Romanian coach actually bothered last night to analyse the Spanish movie about the ref.



I will post it here with his answer for every penalty. I am not an expert to make such analysis, nor have his permission yet to post his pictures but the explanation of each phase should be enough. I didn't changed anything of his post spelling.

1. Penalty for holding on. Belgian player clearly over the ball suporting his own bodyweight. Very strong position, hard to move away because he has about 180 kg. Good luck with that spanish superman.
2. Penalty for playing on the ground. Ball somewhere there in the middle, ruck is formed, probabely no hands called. Two players from spain covering the ball and one of them, or both, scooping the ball with the hand at the back

3. Penalty for obstruction which did not happened only once in 2 sec but ...twice
Manage
4. Penalty for offside at the scrum. The SH is behind the oposite flanker. Is understandable if you do not know that, the rule just pumped in 1st of January 2017. Ball a mile inside the scrum. The spanish sh has alredy his legs after the flanker. You can clearly see his knees before the flankers knee and at that moment he starts to advance even more

5. A knock on from the restart which you can not spot it on this kind of transmision but I would go with the ref on this one because till now he got all right ;) and passed alredy about 20 min from the game. Plus he has a very good position to spot it.

6. A forward pass indeed which he did not spot it. Somewhere in the middle field. What a tragedie. Such a bad ref. I see at least 10 passes/game like this in super rugby. They are calling them flat passes. Plus spain did the same pass and he did not whisled as well. So was consistent.

7. Penalty for grabbing the nr 9 whithout the ball. Any questions?

8. They show a "late tackle" but the guy who made it he was commited to a spot tackle alredy from when he was 7-10 m away. You have to see the game to understand it. And to know rugby, offcourse.. commited to the tackle and ...Ball 1 m away at the moment of colision.

9. Penalty for comeing from aside. Nr 3 comeing from aside and going straight down. Pick your favorite one

10. Hight tackle. Watch the line of the defender shoulder before impact. Defenders right hand makes contact with the neck then turns behind the atacker which gives the ref a perfect position to see that. Aaaa and at nr 9 you have a bonus of a neck roll if comeing from aside and going staright down was not anought.

I don't have time to post the photos he made but you can watch the movie posted above by a neutral Afghan.

Spanish players acted outrageously, they lost the plot from minute 1 and after a serious analysis of a ref probably these accusations won't stand. Spanish fan are also outrageously acting flooding Romanian pages with all sort of crap.

LE: according with a neutral source, not a Romanian friendly one, the penalty count was actually 18 - 8.

https://twitter.com/T2Rugby/status/975494827222667264


LLE: I don't remember if I mentioned already but I think it was a bad call for RE to delegate two Romanians at the matches vs Germany and Italy (Mitrea, Italian ref have Romanian roots) but except us and Georgians you don't see T2 and T3 refs at a decent level.
 
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Nothing is lost forever yet

There is the repecheage and well...This could be like I'm proping ourselves up but we the Spaniards are better when we paint ourselves into a corner.

Remember Hernan Cortes in Mexico burning the ships they used to ferry the troops from Cuba "Now there's no turning back"

That's the spirit!
 
Just re-watched the end of the affair.
I know it looks bad, but it's not as if they hit the ref or something.

WR made a statement:

Statement: While World Rugby does not appoint match officials for the Rugby Europe Championship, it is in contact with Rugby Europe to understand the context of events relating to the Belgium v Spain match in Brussels on Sunday, which doubled as an important RWC 2019 qualifier.

It's amazing how WR is never responsible of anything that goes wrong. They weren't responsible for the ref here, they weren't responsible either for what happened regarding the 2023 WC host selecion.
What the hell are they actually responsible for?
 
Absolutely gutted for Spain but they only have themselves to blame. Even if the ref had a bad game, they should still be comfortable winners against Belgium.
I think they'll be beat Portugal and give Samoa a good game in the play-off. Should they lose that then I think they'll win the repechage tournament. Am I right in saying that the teams in the repechage will likely be Hong Kong, Kenya, Spain and Canada (already there)?
 


someone posted this

i only saw like three actual bad calls, most of the breakdown penalties didn't show the entire tacke/ruck process so it's hard to judge them.

1. Obstruction call was real bad and the yellow given afterwards was bad. Like the ref wanted to **** off the Spaniards.

2. Accidental offside on lineout. Ball was always in the hands of the guy in front of the planned maul so no one was offside.

3. Should have been yellow for that intentional knock.



Yeah, me too. I actually gave my analysis in a comment there with a timeline, the numbers with * are ref mistakes I deemed obvious.


1 - 0:05 you can see the Red 4 on his feet with his hands on the ball, the yellow player not releasing the ball
2 - 0:13 2 yellow players off their feet handling the ball
3 - 0:19 obstruction, you can see it how at 0:21, yellow player stops just in time to cover the ball carrier
4 - 0:34 the neckgrab that should have been a yellow wasn't penalized...
*5 - 1:50 not visible in the footage, the ref signaled offside at scrum (i'm gonna let this slip as a ref mistake)
6 - 2:00 yellow players are offside at maul, it's difficult to know which team is carrying then a yellow #2 contests the ruck from the red side
7 - 2:15 forward pass not a penalty. It's difficult to say from the footage, i'm goinna let this slip as well
*8 - 2:52 seems unclear at first, after watching the full scene it looks indeed like Belgium was given a penalty here out of nothing.
9 - 3:00 was this supposed to make us believe Spain deserved a penalty for a late tackle? Red was already commited, no argument.
10 - 3:11 fair drive by red followed by a side entry by yellow. Red player righfully slaps his left cheek at 3:15 :)
11 - 3:26 #7 yellow clearly not rolling away
12 - 3:36 Red clearly on his feet contesting the ball, a case can be made if 7 red actually rolled away in time but the ball was out there
13 - 3:49 you have to look for the actual footage here, spain collapse the maul
14 - 4:05 ...just look at it...
*15 - 4:22 Wrogful penalty awarded to Belgium, admitently was a red boot in the scrum, ref probably thought it was a yellow hand in there
16 - 4:32 Dead ball - scrum. No argument
17 - 4:45 wheeling the scrum, you can see how Belgium was stable while Spain tried to dance around.
18 - 5:12 this was a penalty for Spain, but it was stopped for an apparent knock on made by Spain (not seen but presumed) Belgium players stopped playing.
19 - 5:40 you can see Red with on his feet with hands on the ball
20 - 5:51 clearly from the side, no discussion.
21 - 6:12 it's difficult to see, but the infringement seems to be a yellow player playing the ball on the ground. The card was probably given for repeated infringements in the ruck (which we've seen)
22 - 6:40 throw not straigh - scrum
23 - 6:49 In the scrum that followed Spanish 1st row raised, Belgium played advantage, it's arguable if the pass at 7:09 was forward, they knock it on and then return to the original scrum penalty
24 - 7:36 the ref wanted to let it go away, but look at his gesture. One spanish player actually covers the mouth of his teammate to prevent him talking ****...
25 - 7:47 maul not contested, but can be argued that Belgium players made contact with the ball carrier. Either way, the maul must be called out by the ref.
*26 - 8:08 Indeed not seen by the ref
27 - 8:25 Red had his hands on the ball. What is the argument?
28 - 8:48 Yellow #3 clearly lost his footing in the scrum. No argument.
*29 - 9:00 It looks like a high tacke, even though not clear, I'm gonna let this slide
30 - 9:34 He's holding the ball because the tackle was not complete, you can see the tackler not rolling away either because he's still in motion. Arguable, but I think the ref was right on this one.
31 - 9:41 The penalty was given, but usually no cards are given for deliberate knock ons... it was not a scoring situation and it's not clear that an attempt to catch the ball was not made.
32 - if you can pause at 10:03 you can see 11 red being blocked from tackling the yellow player. Accidental obstruction - penalty.
 
No Super Rugby players for Samoa? You'd think that Spain would take that one then.

No, they won't. Some players will be banned, others will not be released by French clubs, and we will play Samoa with an amateur División de Honor team (like every past June test window).
 
Yeah, me too. I actually gave my analysis in a comment there with a timeline, the numbers with * are ref mistakes I deemed obvious.


1 - 0:05 you can see the Red 4 on his feet with his hands on the ball, the yellow player not releasing the ball
2 - 0:13 2 yellow players off their feet handling the ball
3 - 0:19 obstruction, you can see it how at 0:21, yellow player stops just in time to cover the ball carrier
4 - 0:34 the neckgrab that should have been a yellow wasn't penalized...
*5 - 1:50 not visible in the footage, the ref signaled offside at scrum (i'm gonna let this slip as a ref mistake)
6 - 2:00 yellow players are offside at maul, it's difficult to know which team is carrying then a yellow #2 contests the ruck from the red side
7 - 2:15 forward pass not a penalty. It's difficult to say from the footage, i'm goinna let this slip as well
*8 - 2:52 seems unclear at first, after watching the full scene it looks indeed like Belgium was given a penalty here out of nothing.
9 - 3:00 was this supposed to make us believe Spain deserved a penalty for a late tackle? Red was already commited, no argument.
10 - 3:11 fair drive by red followed by a side entry by yellow. Red player righfully slaps his left cheek at 3:15 :)
11 - 3:26 #7 yellow clearly not rolling away
12 - 3:36 Red clearly on his feet contesting the ball, a case can be made if 7 red actually rolled away in time but the ball was out there
13 - 3:49 you have to look for the actual footage here, spain collapse the maul
14 - 4:05 ...just look at it...
*15 - 4:22 Wrogful penalty awarded to Belgium, admitently was a red boot in the scrum, ref probably thought it was a yellow hand in there
16 - 4:32 Dead ball - scrum. No argument
17 - 4:45 wheeling the scrum, you can see how Belgium was stable while Spain tried to dance around.
18 - 5:12 this was a penalty for Spain, but it was stopped for an apparent knock on made by Spain (not seen but presumed) Belgium players stopped playing.
19 - 5:40 you can see Red with on his feet with hands on the ball
20 - 5:51 clearly from the side, no discussion.
21 - 6:12 it's difficult to see, but the infringement seems to be a yellow player playing the ball on the ground. The card was probably given for repeated infringements in the ruck (which we've seen)
22 - 6:40 throw not straigh - scrum
23 - 6:49 In the scrum that followed Spanish 1st row raised, Belgium played advantage, it's arguable if the pass at 7:09 was forward, they knock it on and then return to the original scrum penalty
24 - 7:36 the ref wanted to let it go away, but look at his gesture. One spanish player actually covers the mouth of his teammate to prevent him talking ****...
25 - 7:47 maul not contested, but can be argued that Belgium players made contact with the ball carrier. Either way, the maul must be called out by the ref.
*26 - 8:08 Indeed not seen by the ref
27 - 8:25 Red had his hands on the ball. What is the argument?
28 - 8:48 Yellow #3 clearly lost his footing in the scrum. No argument.
*29 - 9:00 It looks like a high tacke, even though not clear, I'm gonna let this slide
30 - 9:34 He's holding the ball because the tackle was not complete, you can see the tackler not rolling away either because he's still in motion. Arguable, but I think the ref was right on this one.
31 - 9:41 The penalty was given, but usually no cards are given for deliberate knock ons... it was not a scoring situation and it's not clear that an attempt to catch the ball was not made.
32 - if you can pause at 10:03 you can see 11 red being blocked from tackling the yellow player. Accidental obstruction - penalty.

Your idea of obstruction would lead to 10+ obstruction penalties in any game.

What was wrong with the line out maul? Even if Belgium didn't contest the ball was at the front of the "mass" so there can be no obstruction.

Cards are given for about 50% of intentional knocks now a days.

I don't think Belgium's scrum was legally dominant. They drove staight up a couple times and still won the penalty.

I think the call that Spain is most ****** off about was a good call though. The tackle was completed (held and one knee on ground is all that is needed, this isn't league we aren't looking for ground jumping) and jackals were there to contest (materiality). But I can see how that 75/25 call would be the last straw after so many other calls went against them.


the game is back up
 
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Me too but this is better footage.

And REC started so well last year...:(
 
Jesus. This needs more publicity. These are awful.

It does..but for 2 days we have a wave of Spanish hysteria supported by their Union who asks help from Pichot, Argentina and whichever side believe their story.
 
So after having viewed this forum as a guest from South Africa for 2 months, this event has pushed me to finally take the 2 minutes required to join, and give my 2 cents on the matter. Having followed the qualifying results, and looking at the relative strengths of the teams, this is why this whole scenario sounds fishy from a South African point of view:

So let's take the incident, and substitute it for a more relateable competition, ie. Six Natoions, and let's substitute Spain and Romania for two of the top sides in action this weekend; let;s use England and Ireland in this example.

Now looking at Belgium in particular, they have spent 4 seasons (not consecutively I might add), in the Six Nations B, with one solitary victory against a German side with their own issues. Their losses this year against the 3 other sides in the competition read: 47-0 vs Georgia, 48-7 vs Russia, 62-12 vs Romania. Now if we had to compare them to a team from the Six Nations proper (who has also only won one game in the past 4 seasons) on relative strength in the scenario, it would be Italy (no offence to any team).

Now let's say the scenario this past weekend was different, and Ireland was playing Italy to win the Six Nations this weekend, and if they lost, England would take the ***le. Now let's say you had an English referee, with two English touch judges, and given the recent results and performances of Italy, and Italy having a solitary victory over Ireland in the past 12 years (which according to World Rugby's report on the game, this was Belgium's first victory over Spain in 12 years); an Italian win over Ireland in their biggest game of the year, with questionable calls by an English ref, handing England the ***le, would have caused a much greater scene in the news than what is currently happening.

So to summarize, a team much more superior on paper, in their biggest game for 20 years, all of a sudden choking against opposition that have been dispatched of with ease by all the other teams equal to them in the competition in controversial circumstances just doesn't sound right.
 

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