Rugby and the British Empire

[Bullitt]

Should bloody well hope you all are - They were there first. The reason we're deemed as 'racist' in this country is because we've all had enough of immigrants coming in and for the large part sponging off the state, then the lefty government handing out all these freebies to them while the local populous are left out of pocket.

The relationship between white Aussies and Abbos however is closer to Yanks and Indians. Come in, conquer, exploit, then as a peaceful gesture, apologies as if it makes up for the past x amount of years.

 

[Maccaweeny]

That is true, except hollywood has portrayed American cases of 'genocide' as a heroic battle between those brave enough to enter the frontier and the proud, stoic yet antiquated Indian.

On the other hand, they have portrayed Australians as racist ********.

it's amazing how many foreign experts there are on Indigenous Australian issues. The fact that they have never once seen an Aboriginal in real life is irrelevant, apparently. Australia has become a favourite case study for those wishing to shift the blame from their own back yard.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>
But its partly true! Australia have been harsh to its Indigenous Australians! If I remember off the top of my head did someone not have to apologise for the Stolen Generation?

Theres more points on the wikipedia site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians[/b]

The thing about the 'Stolen Generation' at the time is that it was in fact for the percieved benefit of the Aboriginals. The Aboriginals still cannot handle modern life in a large part and the 'Stolen Generation' was a government excercise to nip this problem at the bud, after all, despite what the bleeding hearts will tell you Aboriginal life both then and now is a circle of destruction almost. If the Australian government were not involved in a badly conceived effort to allow the Aboriginies to assimilate in society they would have simply done what the early colonists did in Tasmania.
[/b][/quote]
Hmmm, not too sure I agree with you on that one. The fact was that the kids who were taken were almost always half-casts because it was believed that the Aboriginals as a race were "dying off" and so it would be noble at lease to save those with some European blood because, as they saying was back then, "Aboriginal blood washes out" (that is, after a few generations of breeding with whites there'd be no sign of any Aboriginal traits left).
But no, things aren't an aweful lot better at the moment for them... they've got all the necessary rights these days, but they do very much exist in the peripheral of Australian society. It's a complex problem, but one that successive governments haven't done an aweful lot to address.

Still, that doesn't make Australian's "racist", in fact it is widely percieved that Australia is a vastly more successful multicultural nation than Britain because we are more tolerable than the English as a society.
[/b][/quote]

Excuse me for blowing our own trumpet, but we've done a great job at being tolerant for immigrants. Fine, we haven't exactly embraced them all with open arms, but who has?

I said earlier in the topic England and France had a lot in common - immigration from accross the world being one of them. But in France, they've shoved all the Maghreb and West African immigrants out into suburban ghettoes, and there is a lot of institutional racism. I'm friends with a French woman whose husband was a Berber guy from Algeria, they live on the edge of the main bit of Paris. And it's ridiculous; all of the touristy areas are typically wealthy and old-skool Parisian, then the banlieues stretch for miles. I've seen policemen stopping and searching the only black guys in a crowd of people, and no one else. At leaast in England we've managed to integrate our immigrants so that no one is surprised to see a coloured face presenting a show on TV. The way that our cities are planned, with council estates bordering wealthier areas in an irregular way, means there's very little ghettoisation. Which is why French immigrants are trying to find money to move to England... people won't prevent them getting jobs and housing just because they're not white.

Anyway sanzar, I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether Australia's multicultural or not, because I've never been there. I heard there's a lot of Vietnamese and Lebanese.... but seriously, in England we don't have thousands of people living in what are effectively rubbish dumps (having seen a documentary on an Aboriginal town next to Uluru and others like it). Where's the evidence that Aussies are more tolerant?, cos that's far from the stereotype we've got...

 

[Jer1cho]

This topic is going to head in the same direction as others did. There is inequality, poverty, dictatorship, racism, and everything else nearly everywhere. Deal with it, and move on.

 

[Maccaweeny]

I grew up in such a 'rubbish dump'. In fact the town of my birth has the highest rate of unemployment in New South Wales, one of the towns we played rugby against has the highest homicide rate. From personal experience I found economic hardship was a factor in people's lives regardless of race, culture or religion. The centralisation of what were local businesses and a booming service industry in tourist centers (mainly cities) means that rural areas suffer (Not to mention the longest drought in recorded history). Race has nothing to do with it.

Then again, you obviously know what you're talking about. You've watched a documentary...

 

[KZNSharksFan]

it's amazing how many foreign experts there are on Indigenous Australian issues. The fact that they have never once seen an Aboriginal in real life is irrelevant, apparently. Australia has become a favourite case study for those wishing to shift the blame from their own back yard.
[/b]

A-Bloody-men. Everyone has an opinion (and rightly so) on the history of other nations and their internal race-relations, but the fact is, many do not fully comprehend the situation or even have a basic understanding of that nations history. For example, many people make sweeping statements regarding South Africa and its apartheid policies, regardless of whether they actually have any knowledge of apartheids history. Unsurprisingly, this really ****** me and others off.

In short, form an opinion, but only express it if you actually know what you're talking about

 

[sanzar]

Anyway sanzar, I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether Australia's multicultural or not, because I've never been there. I heard there's a lot of Vietnamese and Lebanese.... but seriously, in England we don't have thousands of people living in what are effectively rubbish dumps (having seen a documentary on an Aboriginal town next to Uluru and others like it). Where's the evidence that Aussies are more tolerant?, cos that's far from the stereotype we've got... [/b]

Ginger, if you haven't ever been to Australia then wouldn't you say it's more than a little foolish and inflamatory to brand us all as racists because we "haven't embraced the culture of our indigenous community". That statement alone branded you as a no-nothing to anyone who knows anything about Australian and New Zealand history, so you were always gonna cop it... surely you must have known what was coming.

Anyway though, the Aboriginal community is in many ways our primary problem, but it's highly conflictual because do you force them into wider society (where a lot of them just don't want to be) or just give them land and kind of leave them to it? The issues with the Aboriginals are far more complicated than most immigrant issues. We landed on them afterall, they didn't land on us. So no, you don't have people living in "garbage dumps", but in general we have a far lower crime rate and a higher level of integration with immigrants than GB (I'll look for a source for that if you really want, but I'm busy writing an essay right now, so the only sources your going to get from me today will be on whether torture can be justified in the war on terror ).

 

[Maccaweeny]

Aye, Apartheid is a good example as well.

I remember reading a paper which listed government and independently recorded figures that the Ag. reforms enacted by the S.A.P actually resulted in white farmers losing their jobs. Due to the very disenfranchisement of blacks, whites were less attractive as employees.

Just illustrates that there are two sides to the coin, and that things aren't so simple on a grass-roots level as documentary film makers or disillusioned academics wish to purport. The idea that Apartheid actually disadvantaged the normal white person in SA would shock most people.

 

[Prestwick]

So no, you don't have people living in "garbage dumps", but in general we have a far lower crime rate and a higher level of integration with immigrants than GB (I'll look for a source for that if you really want, but I'm busy writing an essay right now, so the only sources your going to get from me today will be on whether torture can be justified in the war on terror ).
[/b]

But I thought most of Sydney was a garbage dump! Thats what my friend from Perth tells me anyway.

ANYWAY! I'm threadjacking this thread and posting a link to...a video of a man dancing all over the world!

EDIT: Actually, here it is!

<object width="400" height="225"> <param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /> <param name="movie" value="http://www.vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=1211060&amp;server=www.vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" /> <embed src="http://www.vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=1211060&amp;server=www.vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="225"></embed></object>
Where the Hell is Matt? (2008) from Matthew Harding on Vimeo.

 

[gingergenius]

I've realised you colonials all have something in common. Your country has its own f***ups and issues, you're obviously all touchy about being white people living on stolen land and as soon as someone like me dares mention it you get all sensitive, toys come out of prams and I must be wrong because I don't live there, while you're all quite happy to sit back and comment on Europe.

Go ahead and negative rep me if you want, this is going the same way as the quota topic, so I'll expect a few snotty PMs as well.

 

[BLR]

I've realised you colonials all have something in common. Your country has its own f***ups and issues, you're obviously all touchy about being white people living on stolen land and as soon as someone like me dares mention it you get all sensitive, toys come out of prams and I must be wrong because I don't live there, while you're all quite happy to sit back and comment on Europe.

Go ahead and negative rep me if you want, this is going the same way as the quota topic, so I'll expect a few snotty PMs as well.[/b]

You're a hero you are.

 

[Jer1cho]

I've realised you colonials all have something in common. Your country has its own f***ups and issues, you're obviously all touchy about being white people living on stolen land and as soon as someone like me dares mention it you get all sensitive, toys come out of prams and I must be wrong because I don't live there, while you're all quite happy to sit back and comment on Europe.

Go ahead and negative rep me if you want, this is going the same way as the quota topic, so I'll expect a few snotty PMs as well.
[/b]

What are you trying to prove? Stop thinking your opinion is fact. This is a topic that cannot be concluded. Just like religion and politics. Everyone will always think that they are right. Whats done is done, leave it alone. Get over it.

 

[Maccaweeny]

You're not wrong because you don't live here, there, or wherever, but rather because your opinions have absolutely no grounding in fact.

Instead of engaging in a valid debate (such as addressing areas where you are at fault, i.e Aus/NZ haka comparison) you just spout *****.

 

[Harpy106]

I think that's the answer to the question then. People's dislike of the English has less to do with anti-colonialism and the British Empire, than English people having a tendency to talk rubbish (see the Daily Mail/Express for more information). It gives the rest of us a bad name.

Although that's just my opinion

 

[Steve-o]

Are you sure about the Indian community?
[/b]

Yes.
The ones in America and Britain just get more publicity.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Whoever said the celtic nations are 'relativley poor' is an arse. London is certainly not the most important part of the UK. In Scotland, it's Edinburgh, in Wales it's Cardiff. Scotland is now pretty much so run by itself, and no doubt you'll come up with some shite like 'oh we subsidise you'. Reality is you don't. Look at the trends in the economies before you make sweeping generalisations like us being relativley poor. Our house prices are not falling at nearly the same rate as those down in England. Yes, Scotland has it's fair share of health and crime problems but all you hear on the news these days in that someone in London has been stabbed. I certainly do not feel 'overshadowed' by the fact London is the uk capital. I do not consider myself British in any respect, and nor while I ever.

It's actually people like you who cause the contempt shown towards to most English folk, which is really unfair. You belong to the minority of arrogant and ignorant people who give the barmy anti-english lot up here a reason to hate you so much and cause so many problems between us. Yes, in Scotland we're guilty of racism towards you lot and it's not something I'm proud of but if people like you didn't make these asumptions, chances are we could see a slight change in that attitude.

Right, I'm putting my soap box away.

 

[cyRil]

Whoever said the celtic nations are 'relativley poor' is an arse. London is certainly not the most important part of the UK. In Scotland, it's Edinburgh, in Wales it's Cardiff. Scotland is now pretty much so run by itself, and no doubt you'll come up with some shite like 'oh we subsidise you'. Reality is you don't. Look at the trends in the economies before you make sweeping generalisations like us being relativley poor. Our house prices are not falling at nearly the same rate as those down in England. Yes, Scotland has it's fair share of health and crime problems but all you hear on the news these days in that someone in London has been stabbed. I certainly do not feel 'overshadowed' by the fact London is the uk capital. I do not consider myself British in any respect, and nor while I ever.

It's actually people like you who cause the contempt shown towards to most English folk, which is really unfair. You belong to the minority of arrogant and ignorant people who give the barmy anti-english lot up here a reason to hate you so much and cause so many problems between us. Yes, in Scotland we're guilty of racism towards you lot and it's not something I'm proud of but if people like you didn't make these asumptions, chances are we could see a slight change in that attitude.

Right, I'm putting my soap box away.
[/b]

Andy, you're supposed to be on court right now! Gasquet is waiting!! :cheers:

 

[Prestwick]

I think that's the answer to the question then. People's dislike of the English has less to do with anti-colonialism and the British Empire, than English people having a tendency to talk rubbish (see the Daily Mail/Express for more information). It gives the rest of us a bad name.

Although that's just my opinion [/b]

Indeed, its quite ironic that its today's trendy liberal elite in England who give the English more of a bad name than our ancestors like Rhodes and Clive hundreds of years ago!

When you have people in Kenya whisper to you in hushed tones "I wish you never left", hen something has seriously gone wrong in the fifty odd years since independence.

 

[Macsen]

When you have people in Kenya whisper to you in hushed tones "I wish you never left", hen something has seriously gone wrong in the fifty odd years since independence. [/b]

I remember walking through a desolate village in the Zambian bush a few years ago. As I was walking through a little kid saw me, stated screaming like hell, ran off, and came back swinging a flimsy little axe. A few moments latter some older people turned up and tried to comfor him. I asked one of them what was the matter and he laughed and told me that the boy's grandfather had been telling him stories about the white people who came to the town and took the people away, and I was the first white person this kid had ever seen. (Plus I'm quite ugly so it must have been a traumatic experience for the kid.)

Anyway far from wanting us back I generally got the impression that African people wanted to be left alone to sort their own problems out. But I think there's something about africa that makes it hard to build a working civilization. Some people in Europe think we succeeded because we'r somehow better than other people, but I think it's just the climate. It's much easier to get things done in a cool and green country than in a hot and lifeless desert.

 

[Prestwick]

It depends, if you go to the more developed areas, they remember the time when things like power worked properly and when they had proper sewage, plumbing and clean water. When the roads were properly paved and without potholes and when there was at least some sort of social housing provision. Most importantly, they remember when officials had enough scruples not to accept a bung and follow regulations. My Dad was in Kenya a year or two after Independence and returned in 1994/5 and I think he was more shell shocked than I was because he knew what was there fourty years previously and what wasn't there now. It broke his heart I think.

However, if you live out in the bush, especially somewhere like Zambia which suffered from constant attacks from white Rhodesia, you'll have more negative experiences justifiably because thats what you've had for most of your life.

However, no, we shouldn't go back. Going back does not solve problems, teaching them good governance, linking aid and loans towards fighting corruption and proper and accountable investment and other such measures however does solve problems.

We just need the political will to do that, thats all.

EDIT: And this leads me to my thoughts on British colonialism. Do you want to know why nations like Nigeria, Kenya and Zambia have suffered over the years from misrule and civil war while others like Malaysia and Singapore have gone on to become international success stories? Its because for the latter we had already developed layer upon layer of locally hired and trained civil servants and administrators ready to hand over to who knew the ropes and knew what to do. The former however, we just set up a Parliament, showed the equivelent of the modern office temp how to work the telex machine, had a hasty handover ceremony, said "cheerio" or "g'bye boyo" or "seeye later" (depending on what nationality the Foreign Office rep was) and essentially ran off.

What was worse, when the warning signs came along, like the President/head of the 'revolutionary peoples movement of *insert African region here*' started to become more and more autocratic, we buried our heads in the sand and pretended that nothing was happening. Guys like Mugabe were the darlings of the liberal left in the UK and much of his hate towards the UK has been borne out of the way that the liberal lefties paraded him around British Universities in the 1960s like their performing monkey which was quite frankly revolting and incredibly hypocritical.

We didn't lose an empire, we ran away from it. And it shows in the state that the majority of Commonwealth nations are in today. That has done more damage to Africa than Apartheid ever did.