RaboDirect Pro12 Dream Team 2011/2012

[Peat]

The team is a reminder of the failures of the league. With no relegation systems teams are under no threat and so many don´t take it seriously. Five years ago it was only really the Irish sides doing this. Today it is essentially all of them. Glasgow is the only team regularly fielding its strongest XV or close to it. The league, as a result, is not what it should be and the crowds are not good at all. Getting Ulster vs Edinburgh to attract a crowd like that from the HEC Semi in Dublin is simply never going to happen for a Celtic-Italian League Semi Final.

Just look at the number of foreigners in this dream XV..... many play for the clubs to rest the clubs first choice players for the SIx Nations and Heineken Cup.

Edinburgh.. Heineken Cup Semi Finalists.... 11th in the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

Sorry, but you're somewhat off base with this.

The purpose of the league is to get a higher standard of rugby for the composite countries than they could manage if they simply formed their own leagues. Considering Wales' international success and the way the Irish are owning the Heineken, mission accomplished.

You comment on and criticise the number of foreigners. There are fewer foreign players in the Rabble Pro than in the AP and Top 14.

The team is missing a large number of the best players, true; are we going to get torn into the Premiership because Will Greenwood's dream team omitted Dan Cole for Johnstone, what with Cole only starting 8 or so Premiership games? The bald reality of the fact is that between international rugby, European rugby, and not flogging players to death, the domestic competitions are always going to see less of the top players than we'd like. The Rabble Pro might take that further; partially that is due to commandments from on high, with many teams in the Rabble Pro being more firmly attached to the Union, who dictate things to avoid their international players getting burn out. The other part is there are some teams that can get away with it - if you've got squad depth like Leinster's, you're going to use it. Yes, you get the occasional Michael Bradley team, who decides to completely ignore the Rabble Pro in favour of European competition, but personally that seems to be comparatively rare to me. Most sides are looking to win silverware in all competitions.

So, in short - it's a good standard of rugby, very watchable, is really producing for some of the member Unions, and is actually fairly competitive as well. Failure? The only real possible failure is attendances. I don't have full records for them, but might question to what extent attendance problems are due to the league, and what extent they are due to artificial regions in Wales/Connacht never being a rugby area/and so on.

Wouldn't say no to a bit of the 'failure' currently being shown over there in England tbh.

 

[psychic duck]

Sorry, but you're somewhat off base with this.

The purpose of the league is to get a higher standard of rugby for the composite countries than they could manage if they simply formed their own leagues. Considering Wales' international success and the way the Irish are owning the Heineken, mission accomplished.

You comment on and criticise the number of foreigners. There are fewer foreign players in the Rabble Pro than in the AP and Top 14.

The team is missing a large number of the best players, true; are we going to get torn into the Premiership because Will Greenwood's dream team omitted Dan Cole for Johnstone, what with Cole only starting 8 or so Premiership games? The bald reality of the fact is that between international rugby, European rugby, and not flogging players to death, the domestic competitions are always going to see less of the top players than we'd like. The Rabble Pro might take that further; partially that is due to commandments from on high, with many teams in the Rabble Pro being more firmly attached to the Union, who dictate things to avoid their international players getting burn out. The other part is there are some teams that can get away with it - if you've got squad depth like Leinster's, you're going to use it. Yes, you get the occasional Michael Bradley team, who decides to completely ignore the Rabble Pro in favour of European competition, but personally that seems to be comparatively rare to me. Most sides are looking to win silverware in all competitions.

So, in short - it's a good standard of rugby, very watchable, is really producing for some of the member Unions, and is actually fairly competitive as well. Failure? The only real possible failure is attendances. I don't have full records for them, but might question to what extent attendance problems are due to the league, and what extent they are due to artificial regions in Wales/Connacht never being a rugby area/and so on.

Wouldn't say no to a bit of the 'failure' currently being shown over there in England tbh.

Melhor's point I think was that the way the league is structured, with no relegation or nothing at stake in terms of European qualification, just means that teams can afford to rest their players disproportionately

maybe if European qualification for the top 8 was on the line, it would prevent Edinburgh just ignoring the league so much, a match between Dragons and Treviso would have a whole lot more meaning to it and crowds would be more interested

 

[Peat]

Melhor's point I think was that the way the league is structured, with no relegation or nothing at stake in terms of European qualification, just means that teams can afford to rest their players disproportionately

maybe if European qualification for the top 8 was on the line, it would prevent Edinburgh just ignoring the league so much, a match between Dragons and Treviso would have a whole lot more meaning to it and crowds would be more interested

Possibly. A lot of teams don't have a choice on resting. I think the Welsh will have even less in future. And frankly, I'm pro-rotation

Changing qualification might improve the league; I'm not certain it needs a great deal of improvement though tbh.

 

[Groundhog]

Connacht don't produce many great players, they mainly just sign Leinster/Munster rejects and give them some game time, and if they do well like Reddan, Cronin or Carr for example, one of the big two provinces will take them back, although they would also sign any of their homegrown players too

it is also debatable whether the Dragons really produce that much either although they do produce more than Connacht, they have Lydiate, Faletau, Charteris, and previously Michael Owen, but there are few other experienced Welsh internationals I can think of who they produced


I don't think Ryan Jones ever went through the Newport system

I've always found this system annoying especially when certain players get snapped back up when they'd have been better off staying at Connacht. I think Connacht are slowly improving and playing Heineken Cup rugby can only help to encourage young players to stay for a few seasons. Hopefully they'll start to produce some more homegrown talents. Young guys like Tiernan O'Halloran are a good start

 

[big ginger 8]

People always bang on about relegation in the Pro12 who'd be in the 2nd division without breaking up existing teams?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Edinburgh.. Heineken Cup Semi Finalists.... 11th in the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

2005/06 Season
Bath: 9th in the Premiership, Heineken Cup semi finalists.

2006/07 Season
Northampton: 12th in the Premiership (Relegated). Bottom of their group in the EDF Energy Cup. Heineken Cup semi finalists.

2009/10 Season
BOPB: 9th in the Top 14. Heineken Cup finalists.

Freak results like Edinburgh, Bath and Northampton and Biarritz's relatively successful seasons in Europe can happen.

 

[psychic duck]

2005/06 Season
Bath: 9th in the Premiership, Heineken Cup semi finalists.

2006/07 Season
Northampton: 12th in the Premiership (Relegated). Bottom of their group in the EDF Energy Cup. Heineken Cup semi finalists.

2009/10 Season
BOPB: 9th in the Top 14. Heineken Cup finalists.

Freak results like Edinburgh, Bath and Northampton and Biarritz's relatively successful seasons in Europe can happen.

Biarritz just got to the final because they had an easy group and two home ties in the knockout rounds, they finished 7th that season as well by the way

Northampton just got to the knockout stages as they had Borders and Parma in their group meaning they could get a best runners up spot, whilst the Ospreys had to have Stade Français, Sale (then the reigning English champions) in their pool

 

[Draggs]

People always bang on about relegation in the Pro12 who'd be in the 2nd division without breaking up existing teams?

The Valley Commandos would probably like a spot.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Biarritz just got to the final because they had an easy group and two home ties in the knockout rounds, they finished 7th that season as well by the way

Northampton just got to the knockout stages as they had Borders and Parma in their group meaning they could get a best runners up spot, whilst the Ospreys had to have Stade Français, Sale (then the reigning English champions) in their pool

So you're agreeing with me. All did well in Europe because they had easy groups and freak results can happen.

 

[Teh Mite]

Either way, the Scots and the Welsh will hang on Irish Heineken Cup coat tails to harp on how amazing the Purgatory league is in equally the same way Oussies and Africans hang on Kiwi coat tails talking of the Tri-Nations.

It's unlikely that the English will be competitive any time soon. The engineered competitiveness of the domestic competition is good for the tension in the league (this coming Saturday being prime example for both ends of the table, don't let Rugby Union bureaucracy regarding Bristol, Bedford, Pirates & Welsh Exiles distract from the fact). It come's at a price however as Leicester should have continued to kick on and be joined by the other sides with the financial clout, but they and the others (realistically Northampton, Sarries, Bath, Gloucester, Irish & Quins) are hamstrung by the salary cap and divided interests due to international commitments when they have to choose between a quality starting players and strength in depth.

The Celtic model (Well, Irish) has it pretty much spot on for competing in Europe - Pre-established Regions who already have the historical fan base competing primarily for the HEC as something for centrally contracted players to play in between internationals. They can use the backup for the "domestic" competition, but it's still low priority - Leinster fans didn't give a **** last year when Munster won the final.

The Welsh use the same models, however the sad point is even in European fixtures they simply cannot draw a crowd (Saints at New Strady - The hated English and last seasons runners-up, following a victory away in the opposite fixture and Scarlets having a good opportunity to progress through the group... Not even a half full stadium). The Scots simply don't give a **** about rugby - The QF Murrayfield crowd showed about as much interest as the full Wembley games for Sarries - "A jolly good day out watching this Rugger stuff for tom, dick and harry, but I prefer footy really".

The only lot ever with potential to overhaul the Irish in the foreseeable future are the French.