Question on the maul

[Holycow]

Listening to Commentators the weekend about the Ireland v England game, afew mentioned that Ireland did a great job of double tackling and not allowing the player with the ball to go to ground, instead of it becoming a ruck it became a maul

You had the two tacklers and the opposition ball carrier. What the rule here?

When does it become a maul and how do the tacklers win a turn over?

 

[mrhoyo]

I believe it is a maul when a player has been tackled but hasn't gone to ground. The turnover in open play is when the tackling team rip the ball out but the ref can ping the attacking side and give a penalty if they try rucking the maul, as happened in that match.

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[best_fullback]

Law 17 of the IRB laws states:

"A maul begins when a player carrying the ball is held by one or more opponents,
and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the ball carrier. A maul
therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three players, all on their feet; the
ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be
caught in or bound to the maul and must be on their feet and moving towards a​

goal line. Open play has ended."

Hope that helps!

Source: http://www.irb.com/lawregulations/laws/index.html

 

[Holycow]

once the ball carrier is held up by one or more players we have a maul. Does the turn over come when the ball carrier does not make any more ground. I'm thinking of an example i saw where two players held the ball carrier up and the ref (Nigel owen) called that "a maul had formed" and then a few seconds later blew his whisle , I'm assuming he blew because the ball carrier was not making ground and the ball was then turned over. Right or wrong?

 

[best_fullback]

once the ball carrier is held up by one or more players we have a maul. Does the turn over come when the ball carrier does not make any more ground. I'm thinking of an example i saw where two players held the ball carrier up and the ref (Nigel owen) called that "a maul had formed" and then a few seconds later blew his whisle , I'm assuming he blew because the ball carrier was not making ground and the ball was then turned over. Right or wrong?

Correct. When I played when younger this often happened; generally with the referee shouting "use it or lose it!". Rule 17.6 states how mauls unsuccessfully ends when it has stopped moving:

"(a) A maul ends unsuccessfully if it remains stationary or has stopped moving forward for longer than 5 seconds and a scrum is ordered."

Alternatively the same will happen if the ball is unplayable or the maul collapses.

The feed to the scrum will be given to the defending before it became a maul, or if it is not clear who has possession when whistle blown, the team that was going forward in the maul last.

 

[Holycow]

Correct. When I played when younger this often happened; generally with the referee shouting "use it or lose it!". Rule 17.6 states how mauls unsuccessfully ends when it has stopped moving:

"(a) A maul ends unsuccessfully if it remains stationary or has stopped moving forward for longer than 5 seconds and a scrum is ordered."

Alternatively the same will happen if the ball is unplayable or the maul collapses.

The feed to the scrum will be given to the defending before it became a maul, or if it is not clear who has possession when whistle blown, the team that was going forward in the maul last.

Thanks Fullback. When defending against a maul my understanding is that you can only enter it from the front once it has formed or try and get in the middle of it while it is being formed?. you can not go in from the side or fall on the ground?

Jesus who be a ref.

 

[best_fullback]

Thanks Fullback. When defending against a maul my understanding is that you can only enter it from the front once it has formed or try and get in the middle of it while it is being formed?. you can not go in from the side or fall on the ground?

Jesus who be a ref.

Yes also correct. In both rucks and mauls, once formed, the players must join through the 'gate' which is directly at the back (I think this is what you mean by the front!). This is stated in 17.3(c): "Players joining a maul must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the maul. The player may join alongside this player." - so you cannot join directly from the side as that is offside and a penalty offence, but can join at the back parallel to another team mate.

Also as you said about getting to the middle of it I assume you mean try and personally make an attempt to rip the ball before the maul has formed. Once the maul has formed you can still try to do this but the main effort usually made by defending team is just to stop the drive, so players generally just bind and push.

Falling to the ground is also a penalty offence under 17.2(e) if intentionally trying to bring down the maul. If you are the ball carrier though you can pull yourself to the floor only if the ball is immediately presentable and playable (17.2(d)).

Yeah the rules are quite complicated! Scrums are far worse though. I still to this day don't have a clue why people are penalised sometimes, and not at others.