Premiership Rugby 20/21 - Semi-Finals

[Reiser99]

all set up for more extra time

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Got to admire the tenacity of the racism in the chiefs crowd to still be chanting, banging the drum and wearing the headresses

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair play to Chiefs, comfortably the better side today

Didn't help we were down 6 starters, but then they were down a few too, and we couldn't match the intensity of last week, not even close

Need a better backup 10 - all Rob did was put up bombs we didn't chase. Shame there's been no LV cup or A league where we could blood Wilkinson and Curtis properly.
Same issue at 15, Gourlay and Carpenter in the academy but not experienced enough for first team rugby

5th last season, semi final this, final next?
The train keeps rolling

 

[duncanb]

As a neutral well played all 4 sides.
Great matches all had chances to win.
Not read through tread but bar high tackles ( Tuilagi and Quins lad at death sorry don't know name) no reffing issues.
As a weeds ref for me quins guy yellow and pen Mau red.
But I ain't arguing with the better officials than me.
Enjoyed both games best semis in along while probably ever.

 

[Bristol_Shoguns fan]

Bristol fan- Utterly gutted about today's result. The boys gave everything, for which I can't ask more. 15 minutes of defensive madness and sheedys lax kicking cost us today, neither of which we should pin too much blame on because that's unfair, and there are certainly other areas that could have saved a game that went to ET. Hoping we can be back next year better and more hardened to take it to the next step. For now, well done quins, you earnt it - good luck in the final. Hope you smash it because you certainly smashed it this afternoon x

 

[Bristol_Shoguns fan]

Bristol fan- Utterly gutted about today's result. The boys gave everything, for which I can't ask more. 15 minutes of defensive madness and sheedys lax kicking cost us today, neither of which we should pin too much blame on because that's unfair, and there are certainly other areas that could have saved a game that went to ET. Hoping we can be back next year better and more hardened to take it to the next step. For now, well done quins, you earnt it - good luck in the final. Hope you smash it because you certainly smashed it this afternoon x

I'll add to this that it was a privilege to have even been there today. In my opinion the greatest match I've ever attended (and I include 6n and world Cup matches in that). Regardless of my disappointment in the result, it was an utter pleasure to have been there to witness it all unfold.

 

[Bristol_Shoguns fan]

Got to admire the tenacity of the racism in the chiefs crowd to still be chanting, banging the drum and wearing the headresses

Don't start this debate please... It is not racist to embody and represent a culture at all. If anything its a celebration of a culture separate to one's own to do what the Chiefs fans do. If you want racism to be stamped out, this is exactly the kind of thing that should be allowed as it promotes acceptance. Please give it a rest. Your intention to start these arguments are welcome nowhere.

 

[Jimbo]

Don't start this debate please... It is not racist to embody and represent a culture at all. If anything its a celebration of a culture separate to one's own to do what the Chiefs fans do. If you want racism to be stamped out, this is exactly the kind of thing that should be allowed as it promotes acceptance. Please give it a rest. Your intention to start these arguments are welcome nowhere.

Not convinced there is much of a debate to be had here, the thing appears to be offensive at its very origins, some Exe fans even petitioned to have the imagery removed, BT have also refused to add it to their crowd noise.

your response comes across as a little ignorant, I am not saying it is or isn't racist, it isn't part of the Exe chiefs heritage much of it was introduced when they joined the Premiership.

 

[FLOBALOB]

After such a great days rugby , turning the focus to calling your opponents fans racist is trite, poor form and isn't needed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Obviously it's not all Chiefs fans, just the ones chanting and wearing head dresses

There's no excuses for it anymore after the club was specifically told by a Native American professor that it's offensive

 

[Reiser99]

I find it strange that people who can't be offended by it decide whether it's offensive or not. For me it's simple if someone tells you they find it offensive and they genuine reasons and can explain why then you stop. It's not, "well I don't think I'm being offensive".

In this case people of Native American have said they find it offensive and I'm sure that they have clear reasons as it is their culture and heritage.

Me getting offended by the Exeter player's stupid hair cuts. That's different as really it's their choice and doesn't actually affect me (apart from my eyes).

Yes not everyone who gets offended is in the right, but in this case it's pretty clear that Exeter aren't the ones in the right.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I find it strange that people who can't be offended by it decide whether it's offensive or not. For me it's simple if someone tells you they find it offensive and they genuine reasons and can explain why then you stop. It's not, "well I don't think I'm being offensive".

In this case people of Native American have said they find it offensive and I'm sure that they have clear reasons as it is their culture and heritage.

Me getting offended by the Exeter player's stupid hair cuts. That's different as really it's their choice and doesn't actually affect me (apart from my eyes).

Yes not everyone who gets offended is in the right, but in this case it's pretty clear that Exeter aren't the ones in the right.

Slightly playing devils advocate but sometimes people can claim to be offended from a point of ignorance (not saying that's the case here). For example many in the black community have demanded that white people stop braiding their hair as it is a "black hairstyle", this ignore the fact there is evidence of braiding hair all round the world and it clearly does not originate from or is exclusive to black people.

I can understand the case here but I feel someone claiming to be offended is not itself an argument that something should stop, or is even actually offensive. I think the chiefs should look at a bit of rebranding but I wouldn't say their supporters were racist.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm not a fan of the whole playoff thing, I think it should be best team over the season but that Quins/Bristol game was one of the best games I've seen, it was incredible.

 

[Jimbo]

I'm not a fan of the whole playoff thing, I think it should be best team over the season but that Quins/Bristol game was one of the best games I've seen, it was incredible.

Agreed it was a great game, I have mixed feelings over play offs, but I think they are probably required if you want a relatively accurate representation of a team in both the champions cup and domestic league, if outright victory wins the league I think some sacrafises would have to be made in the cup for sure.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Slightly playing devils advocate but sometimes people can claim to be offended from a point of ignorance (not saying that's the case here). For example many in the black community have demanded that white people stop braiding their hair as it is a "black hairstyle", this ignore the fact there is evidence of braiding hair all round the world and it clearly does not originate from or is exclusive to black people.

I can understand the case here but I feel someone claiming to be offended is not itself an argument that something should stop, or is even actually offensive. I think the chiefs should look at a bit of rebranding but I wouldn't say their supporters were racist.

I agree with this, it's the strength of the argument for me. In this instance, having heard anecdotal claims, I took the time to listen to an interview with someone from Iroquois Roots Rugby. This was enough to convince me that it is indeed racist.

I note that you mention playing devil's advocate, but can you (or anyone else here) make a case that the claims of racism in this case are fatuous? Talking in generalities, I agree with what you've saying, but it seems a weird thing to bother mentioning unless you think that it could be the case here.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's been done to death plenty of arguments against it from the Native american communities.
I struggle to see the argument that it is in admiration, embodiment or representing it, when Exeter do little to zero in actually providing education towards native american culture to their fans or Rugby to the native American communities.



On play-offs i'm not a fan but with covid cancelling matches etc I'm fine with play offs this season.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with this, it's the strength of the argument for me. In this instance, having heard anecdotal claims, I took the time to listen to an interview with someone from Iroquois Roots Rugby. This was enough to convince me that it is indeed racist.

I note that you mention playing devil's advocate, but can you (or anyone else here) make a case that the claims of racism in this case are fatuous? Talking in generalities, I agree with what you've saying, but it seems a weird thing to bother mentioning unless you think that it could be the case here.

I should have been clearer, the point I was raising was about something being linked to a culture being deemed automatically racist or appropriation if others use it. The braids was an example based on the ignorance that it existed outside black countries for millennia but part of the argument is that the braids were a significant part of black culture, regardless of anything to suggest it actually is or that, even if true, it should override the fact it was never exclusive to their culture. Essentially can the argument be made that an imitation of any part of another culture is immediately appropriation and therefore racist?

The chanting for example could be part of native culture and very significant but it could just as easily been a pretty mundane everyday activity or something which served a practical purpose but wasn't all that "sacred" for want of a better word. If every aspect of every culture is deemed sacred and beyond imitation then you end up with over the top gate-keeping and policing to ensure there is zero cultural mixing and the self-appointed cultural police get to decide who can or can't do whatever. Such a situation is clearly absurd.

Also I distinguish between racism and ignorance. I believe that racism is action done with the intent to cause harm based on race. I think people using something because they are ignorant that it would be causing harm is a different matter. It would be like going to a foreign country and offending someone because you were unaware of a cultural norm and offending someone knowing full well what you are doing is causing offense but doing it anyway. I don't believe the chiefs fans are doing it because they want to belittle native culture or cause it harm.

That's why I was saying someone claimed to be offended alone should not be a valid argument. If you look into it and discover there is a basis in the claim then it would but the claim in the absence of anything else supporting it isn't enough. I could claim I find people outside western nations wearing suits offensive as it is a significant part of our culture. Such a claim would not stand up to any scrutiny and I wouldn't be allowed to shout down an asian for example and say "You don't get to tell me whether I'm right in saying you wearing suits is offensive or not". It's the acid test of any of these claims, reverse the roles and if it seems absurd then it likely is, if it seems reasonable then it also likely is. If special exceptions need to be made to justify it, then there is likely a pretty flimsy logic involved.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Well on the chanting I don't believe the tomahawk chop was even a actual chant the music is based on old westerns, and was in fact created by a American university frat. Which I think is one of the main problems with it.

Ok honestly do you think an Exeter chiefs fan at a native American would don a headress and start doing the tomahawk chop?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

Also I distinguish between racism and ignorance. I believe that racism is action done with the intent to cause harm based on race. I think people using something because they are ignorant that it would be causing harm is a different matter. It would be like going to a foreign country and offending someone because you were unaware of a cultural norm and offending someone knowing full well what you are doing is causing offense but doing it anyway. I don't believe the chiefs fans are doing it because they want to belittle native culture or cause it harm.

Not sure the law here agrees with you. As I understand it, things have moved past intent with perception by the victim or other people being a big part of it.

I agree on this. I'm sure that for 99.99% of Chiefs fans it's just a bit of branding that they unthinkingly buy into.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

.

Not sure the law here agrees with you. As I understand it, things have moved past intent with perception by the victim or other people being a big part of it.

I agree on this. I'm sure that for 99.99% of Chiefs fans it's just a bit of branding that they unthinkingly buy into.

I'm no lawyer but a bit of googling reveals this:

(1)An offence is [F2racially or religiously aggravated] for the purposes of sections 29 to 32 below if—

(a)at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates towards the victim of the offence hostility based on the victim's membership (or presumed membership) of a [F3racial or religious group]; or

(b)the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by hostility towards members of a [F3racial or religious group] based on their membership of that group.

I do not think either of these apply to chiefs fans and so are not racially aggravated offenses.