Posts moved from Game 6 topic: the Aboriginal debate

[Dumbo]

Left of centre... does any one from any particular country feel that their country is above racism? or have no racism in their background?... or is above any form of segregation based on race, religion, political beliefs, social-economics’ status, sex or sexual preference?

Man, if you think your country does… man, that’s bad…

 

[Prestwick]

I wouldn't say we're above race, there is quite frankly a shocking state of racism in the UK between ethnic minorities. Government figures are reporting a progressive decline in hate crimes* committed by whites against ethnic minorities and vice versa, however, they show between 1996 and 2006 a sharp rise in hate crimes perpetrated by one minority against another.

Also, in the UK, the picture is more complicated than simply saying "The UK is a racist country". In places like Scotland, Wales, the East and Southwest of England, there are less racial tensions and a more laid back attitude. However, in places like London & the South East, the Midlands & North of England and Northern Ireland, there are seriously hardcore problems. When you split those problem areas up to analyse further, you find that tensions between whites and minorities are mainly in the North of England, the home counties and Northern Ireland with minority vs minority tensions rising in the Midlands and London with whites as a mere spectator.

When you look at the statistics, where they take place, etc, the issue of race is a highly complex issue and the traditional idea of "whites being the oppressors" is slowly fading into obscurity.

(* inciting racial hated, racially aggravated assault, using racial slurs, stuff like that)

You're joking right? I have seen a lot and when I was living in England, heard a lot.[/b]

No, I'm not joking. I've been to plenty of rugby or cricket matches involving England & Australia and I haven't seen any England fans start chanting about Australia's treatment of Aborigines or start chanting "you're a bunch o'racist missionaries!" or something like that. You do realise that the average Brit these days probably doesn't even know that Australia even has any aborigines. The UK's perception of Australia is much like the United States: John Howard, Crocodile Dundee, awful beer and Neighbors augmented with stellar sportsmen. So quite frankly BigTen, after about five pints, the last thing most chaps here want to do is engage in an intellectual discussion on Australian social policy and debate over the role Christian missionaries in the 50s and 60s in the Aussie outback.

Usually when I attend Ashes matches, there is the usual banter over "convicts" and "soft poms" and even the occasional food fight with sandwich crusts and beer but I haven't exactly seen a member of the Barmy Army, drunk to the gills on Scrumpy Jack formulate a intellectually devastating attack on Australia's record on Aborigines over the last 50 years.

In fact, the worst thing I've heard said about the Australians, was actually by an Australian ex-squaddie of the Australian army (RAR I think) where he blamed the drive towards making Australia a republic (and I quote) on "those f***in' Catholic Irish in Australia" which was quite an eye opener. It was interesting because when he asked me if I knew anything about the whole "shall we ditch the Queen or not" debate initially I was like "er....I ain't touching that with a 50 foot bargepole, its your country, you sort it out!"

I still maintain that our Rugby fans have to be some the most dull and depressing fans around and refuse to believe this vision that every other fan outside of England has that somehow we're a bunch of racist and arrogant drunkards who either wear top hats, tails and a monocle and snicker loudly like Dick Dasterly*, plotting the political downfall of Ireland, Scotland or whatever or wander around with no shirt on, an England flag tattoed to their belly and lug garden furniture around in Belgian town squares. One thing that us England Rugby fans try damn hard to do is to try and separate ourselves from the racist, drunken and riotous mob that trashes half of Europe when the England fag-ball team goes a'tourin'. And if that makes us kill-joys and party poopers then so be it.

What I was talking about was banter between fans and I think you're confusing that with the regular ignorant, Daily Mail fueled idle talk in regular life on the high street or in the greasy spoon cafe where grizzled 50 year old Essex women or the nouvous riche of the Home Counties bang on about "immigrants" in broad Estuary English!


So to recap. England Rugby fans are NEITHER OF THESE:
*

*

 

[Maccaweeny]

If they want to take cheap shots so will I.

I could come out and say nasty stuff about Australians and I would not be guilty of racism. Simply becasue Australia is not a race and for me to be racist I have to say something about a particular race as oppossed to nation.

Therefore I am not racist.

And your weak threats are boring.
[/b]

No but there are a range of other, less debated terms in the modern English lexicon to describe your ignorance.

Yet you still haven't addressed the obvious point that the Indigenous community only constitutes 2% of the total Australian population, and furthermore that many of them may not look "Aboriginal" whatsoever, due to current citizenship statute, which dictates one can claim Aboriginal status if they are 1/8th. Nor have you taken into account that Melbourne has one of the smallest proportionate Aboriginal communities out of all urban centres in Australia.

Nor did you answer my question, why don't i see those of Asian descent in business suits in Auckland and Dunedin, despite their higher prevalence in the New Zealand population than Whites/Aborigines in Australia?

Your "cheap shot" is in no way viable in a normal debate, all you are doing is illustrating your complete ignorance of issues relating to the Australian indigenous population.

I grew up in Nowra, probably never heard of it but it has the largest unemployment rate in NSW, followed by a large Aboriginal population. Considering that I have grown up and gone to school with Aboriginals all my life, it's pretty easy to see the gross fallibility of your shitty assertions.

" I believe that there is a low level of rampant racism that operates under Australia's society which ensures that Aborigines do not get the same opportunities that "white fellas" like me get."

-Hrmmm, really? So obviously I would be mistaken in saying that Aboriginals get exclusive academic priveliges in university positions, lower entrance requirements along with free education?

Anyone, however critical of the Australian government, who has at least some working knowledge of the debate would be well aware that it is not a question of "oppurtunities," or "underlying racism,". The current situation is a result of socio-economic context, of long-term substance abuse and cultural isolation. The exclusive oppurtunities exist, yet the aboriginal population is not in the position to take advantage of them.

If you actually bothered to do some reading on the topic, you will find that the situation is far more complex, involving a range of societal influences that cannot simply be summarised under idiotic nostrums such as "Aborigines do not get the same opportunities that "white fellas" like me get."

To finish off, I see an Aboriginal in a suit every wednesday, he is the tutour in my contract law tute at uni, and like a great deal of Aboriginals he has the ability to see that engendered disadvantage runs deeper than racism, that "blaming the white man," is neither viable in the modern Australian context or in any way beneficial to the indigenous community.

 

[Maccaweeny]

In fact, the worst thing I've heard said about the Australians, was actually by an Australian ex-squaddie of the Australian army (RAR I think) where he blamed the drive towards making Australia a republic (and I quote) on "those f***in' Catholic Irish in Australia" which was quite an eye opener. It was interesting because when he asked me if I knew anything about the whole "shall we ditch the Queen or not" debate initially I was like "er....I ain't touching that with a 50 foot bargepole, its your country, you sort it out!"
[/b]

ahahahah lol, it's true the Irish Catholics are to blame for the Republican movement . It's because, wheras the Catholics in Ireland are over the whole "protestant vs. Catholic" debate, the ones that came over here from Ulster during the 60's and 70's (hence my father), never got over it and hate England just for fun. I'm serious, the Irish pub near where I live used to have a dart board with Ian Paisley's face on it.

 

[Dumbo]

Good points there Macca... the Aborignal situation is COMPLEX!

Wathed 60mins the other night (not the best thing to watch to get an insight in serious journalism) about a community in the Northern territory, it focused on a school that had 95% Aboriginal kids... they where starting to make good progress with getting kids to the school, including making sure they got feed.

60mins came in and did there interviews... reported that there was a lot of child abuse... local community went ape **** and stated that's not how they where bringing up the kids and kicked the head master out.


Just like the prophet said, when you get to the bottom of the slide, you go back to the top... just another prime example of how things just go round and round without getting resolved.

However on the Aus front... Howard hasn't really addressed this issue as well as I for one, think he could... there's the 'sorry-gate' sage, in which if the Australian government does go down that path will except legal liability... dangerous thing to do...

Sometimes I think the world is in a pretty sorry state.

 

[BigTen]

"...Nor did you answer my question, why don't i see those of Asian descent in business suits in Auckland and Dunedin, despite their higher prevalence in the New Zealand population than Whites/Aborigines in Australia..?" Maccaweeny.



I apologise for not answering your question - it kind of got lost in all of the flak involving me and the truth.



I cannot believe that you do not see any Asian people in suits in Auckland - there are loads. Some JAFAs refer to Howick as Chowick simply because of the amount of Asians that live in that suburb. As for Dunedin - I don't know maybe it is the same reason that not many Maori live there - too cold!



I know some of the underlying problems that face the Aborigine community - I have learnt a lot about their history and culture since coming to Melbourne. Drug, alcohol and substance abuse, isolation, limited access to health and education services, limited role models, and a cultural mindset all work against the Aborigine as a people. And all of these problems are tough to solve - you can't just throw money and make them all go away.



But more seriously are the Australian government created problems - stolen generation, and the failure to allow Aborigines to vote in Federal elcctions unconditionally until 1967. Not to mention the stealing of tribal lands and resources.



Aborigines may indeed have special "privileges" in accessing education but this is hardly of any benefit if they struggle financially throughout undertaking this education or if after graduation no employers give them a chance. They may talk about equal employment but not many businesses go further than that.



It is a tragedy that Aborigines are left behind in Australian society and forget Big Brother - there should be absolute outrage of how far they are behind the rest of Australia. And that is why I question it - sometimes it feels like when I talk to Aussies about that they simply don't care and think that Aborigines (I still hear the word Abo and even the N-word way too much for my liking) are all scum-bags!


Now Maccaweeny you obviously have grown up with a lot of Aborigines and have learnt more about them and have a lot of respect for them - that is obvious - and also why you probably are not very happy with me. I can understand that - I would stand up against anyone that I thought was taking shots at Maori or any group that I had empathy with. I respect you for that - a lot of Australians wouldn't do what you are doing. But please remember that I never had a go at Aborigines and the reason that I am continuing to post here is because I want to clear it up.



And as for Nowra - of course I have heard of it - I work in logistics. My geographical knowledge of Australia is still developing but I think that I know quite a bit for only being in the country for around 4 years.



I am not judging you so I think that writing "...I grew up in Nowra, probably never heard of it..." is a cheap shot of your own and extremely hypocritical of you to accuse me of something that you are now guilty of yourself. But that's okay - and hopefully now you will understand where I am coming from and realise that the truth just jumped to his own incorrect assumption and could only respond with cheap insults and an abuse of his power.

 

[Dumbo]

Good points there BigTen... but easy tiger.
It's a no win, both sides of the Tasman have issues... with no resolution in sight.

The point that I'll take up is with the comments made by the Truth... I'll work with that personally.
Just remember that there's a lot of sensitive people out there... don't get me wrong often it's the same people pointng the finger (for mine, the Truths not one of these) that crack the shits when it comes back there way (but also you've been in Aus long enough to see the cracks... it dosen;t take to long to learn).

And sorry Maaca, love what you're doing but mate... minority.
Australia and New Zealand - two countries filled with bigots left right and center... guess it's the same where ever you go.

Classic example... last trip home to NZ ended up cracking it at a friend that wahed on about asians in, of all places Howick. To me he just sounded like an ignorant white prick... bailed, ended up in a taxi with a Serb... this guy was off the planet when it came to some of his views on race... told him 'let me off here'... I have a Croatian/Maori background... was not impressed but... moved on... ended up the end of K road with an Islander calling me a white prick... nice, world in which we live.

Ignorance in rampant.

 

[Maccaweeny]

"I cannot believe that you do not see any Asian people in suits in Auckland - there are loads. Some JAFAs refer to Howick as Chowick simply because of the amount of Asians that live in that suburb. As for Dunedin - I don't know maybe it is the same reason that not many Maori live there - too cold!"

-From my experience (admittedly not a lot), it would be more likely to see someone of asian descent cleaning a toilet or working in a laundromat than in a suit (this applies to aus too). I'm not saying NZ is racist, in fact I think why so many kiwis are critical of Aus is because they have a pretty good record. All I am stating is that minorities will quite usually be subjected to a lower economic bracket in developed nations, and no one is perfect.


"drug, alcohol and substance abuse, isolation, limited access to health and education services, limited role models, and a cultural mindset all work against the Aborigine as a people. And all of these problems are tough to solve - you can't just throw money and make them all go away."

-Definitely agreed, yet whenever welfare is regulated, alcohol restricted, or compulsory education measures suggested, the Australian govt. is inundated with criticism stating it is racist, paternalistic etc.

" But please remember that I never had a go at Aborigines and the reason that I am continuing to post here is because I want to clear it up."

- I never thought you did, all i was having a go at was the connection between suits in melbourne and racial disadvantage, though there isn't much point continuing to debate that, as I assume you made it thinking it wouldn't start a big row.

"But more seriously are the Australian government created problems - stolen generation, and the failure to allow Aborigines to vote in Federal elcctions unconditionally until 1967. Not to mention the stealing of tribal lands and resources."

I agree, not allowing Aboriginals to vote in Federal "elections" (take that fkn grammar nazi) was pretty full on, especially when you consider that in the end, well over 30% of aussies voted that the legislation restricting Aboriginal participation should stay the same. Nonetheless, I'm not arguing that a historically racist govt. has not disadvantaged the indigenous population, without a doubt it has. All I'm stating is that racism is a seemingly minor issue in the face of the issues which you have already reiterated, and in the current context it doesn't play such a large part.

"It is a tragedy that Aborigines are left behind in Australian society and forget Big Brother - there should be absolute outrage of how far they are behind the rest of Australia"

- Yeah that's a pretty volatile topic. Superficially it's pretty simple, but the debate about how one brings the indigenous community into the twenty-first cent. is massive. You have market-liberal types proposing commercial investment, making remote communities economically viable, but then you have inner-city greens stating that goes against Aboriginal culture, that thousands of people should be given free-health and services in conjunction with further welfare arrangements.

Yet thing is, there are whites in remote communities who are going without a great deal of health-services and basic requirements , much like in Aboriginal communities. It's the reason why at least half of QL's doctors are imported from overseas, Australia simply does not have the health funding to send trained doctor's to all these places, we have to import them just to do the bare minimum.

It's a **** situation, and both blacks and whites are suffering regardless, yet it is Aboriginal communities who garner the media attention, useful when you're wishing to criticise government policy, 'exposing' racist Australia, that's what sells papers.

"I am not judging you so I think that writing "...I grew up in Nowra, probably never heard of it..." is a cheap shot of your own and extremely hypocritical of you to accuse me of something that you are now guilty of yourself"

-Ever since coming to Sydney, i've had people continually ask "where the f*** is 'Nowra'." I assumed, as you're from Melbourne, you'd have no idea, it wasn't meant to sound like an attack.

You've surprised me, I thought you were a bit of a knob at first, so I apologise for getting up you.

 

[Dumbo]

Well done guys, good to see you've reached a common ground.
Was about to pull the pin on this one... only due to it not being Rugby focused.

Anyone out there that's thinking about throwing some wood on the fire... don't - this topic will be closed if it gets heated...

OK?

 

[Maccaweeny]

"ended up the end of K road with an Islander calling me a white prick... nice, world in which we live."

Yeah i've been called a wog before during a game, despite my father being Irish and my mother Welsh/Irish.

Can't say I'm perfect, I really shocked myself when i was walking past Redfern (so, in my defense, i'm always asked for spare change), anyway this dude came up to me smiling, obviously wanting to ask something. It was dark and I must have been an idiot and thought "black person coming from redfern, he wants money" so I was so bloody close to saying "nah sorry mate, no change" when I stopped myself at the last second.

He was a fkn big islander looking for the Sydney Uni training grounds, I think i would have been picking my teeth up off king st. for a few hours if i didn't stop myself...

 

[Dumbo]

Instead of slagging each other, as Macca's pointed out... any solutions out there?

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'>

In fact, the worst thing I've heard said about the Australians, was actually by an Australian ex-squaddie of the Australian army (RAR I think) where he blamed the drive towards making Australia a republic (and I quote) on "those f***in' Catholic Irish in Australia" which was quite an eye opener. It was interesting because when he asked me if I knew anything about the whole "shall we ditch the Queen or not" debate initially I was like "er....I ain't touching that with a 50 foot bargepole, its your country, you sort it out!"
[/b]

ahahahah lol, it's true the Irish Catholics are to blame for the Republican movement . It's because, wheras the Catholics in Ireland are over the whole "protestant vs. Catholic" debate, the ones that came over here from Ulster during the 60's and 70's (hence my father), never got over it and hate England just for fun. I'm serious, the Irish pub near where I live used to have a dart board with Ian Paisley's face on it. [/b][/quote]

Seriously, I know absolutely nothing about the whole debate over who to have as head of state in Australia so I just nodded and quietly supped my can of Kirin and only spoke up when Cricket or Rugby came along...or to condemn Australia for confiscating my Dad's porn collection when he visited in 1966 with 3 Para to train the diggers before they went to Vietnam. In fact, Dad was sleeping in the same barracks in Australia which was home to those Aussie troopers fighting for their lives in Long Tan at the time!

EDIT: Dad was at 6RAR's barracks at the time in 1966.

 

[ak47]

On doing so I always ask them why it is that I never see Aborigines wearing suits in Melbourne and why it is that the only Aborigines that I see on tv are either criminals or playing sport.



That shuts them up real quick!

[/b]

I speak for myself only



why it is that I never see Aborigines wearing suits in Melbourne - I dont know



why it is that the only Aborigines that I see on tv are either criminals or playing sport. - You dont watch enough TV......Ernie Dingo is on all the time



That shuts them up real quick! - Well, there not much left to say

Your backyard isnt pretty either......but I wont go there and talk about it..........

Seems like someones hit a nerve

Go home if you not like........its a cheap airfair, even payable in NZD. :bleh!:

Can I ask what opportunity this country has given yourself, to warrant the residency in our backyard?

If NZ wont give you that opportunity, and your forced to reside here for lifes purposes - so be it
If NZ does and you CHOOSE to be here instead - YOUR SMARTER THAN WE 1ST THOUGHT.

 

[C A Iversen]

Wow. Guaranteed fireworks in this thread. I'm not getting into who was right or who was wrong, but I can say that Big Tens statement was being used outside of it's intent.

I never noticed The Truth asking what Big Ten meant exactly, he just launched all missiles and tried to decide what Big Ten meant.

By the way I think Big Tens initial point was kinda irrelevant, but it was taken and twisted.

 

[ak47]

Big Tenny is a wealth of knowledge - tread carefully - he can debate with class.

Which is why i answered his questions so blunt....i do not have time to get into the nitty gritty at work, but I do agree with BigTen in alot of cases in this thread.

but nobody is perfect - every country has issues like australia

as a 26yr old i only witness the aftermath of the events that have unfolded in australia history.......as an individual i cannot change that.

Truthy fired up, as most people would - to defend his country, as he himself had nothing to do with our poor history.

We are trying to move on....as a whole........its harder when all parties are reminded of the flaws.

Proof we are trying to move on - our past is bad, our present is better

We as young australians are just sick and tired of copping flack for what our ancestors did........we are trying to make amends

The debate is even hotter, when nobody is perfect, yet we, Australia are singled out as an example, all the time.

Australia's Aborigines - that's all i ever hear

There is alot worse out there.......but if u dont play Rugby as a nation - it wont be discussed on TRF.

We are all products of the Commonwealth.......
disgusting term--->common wealth - who came up with that??
Aborigines are Commonpoor, but politically are now classed as part of the commonwealth, by way of adopted australia.

The family tree is an interesting one........the root of the issue started with James Cook........australia was dumb, slow and stupid, not to recify most of this until the 20th century.

Born in NJ, USA 1980 with a burden of australia's issues, but wasnt a citizen until 1982, because my mother is from Manly....

Being dual citizen of 2 racist countries....I cop it from everywhere....

thank **** i dont have any kiwi or pommy in me

I still love you all!!!!! - keep it real, keep it TRF!!!!!!!

edit - i look back at my post.....2nd line 'dont have time to nitty gritty'

**** i just semi did, thank god its 4:51pm - i am going home

 

[BigTen]

I think that somewhere in every single person resides a certain amount of racism. For some people it is rampant and for others it is an almost invisible tiny little ball.



This racism is the result of what we as humans experience in our lives. We are shaped by the people that raise and the people that we meet. Everything that they say and do goes into making us who we are. The media has a huge influence on us as well and when things get said so many times it is hard to not believe it.



I believe that I have to guard against exhibiting racist behaviour every single day. Even Maccaweeny's last post alluded that I am obviously not the only person out there that does that either. I try and treat everyone that I meet exactly the same - it's hard though with all of the stereotypes that are floating around.



Everybody has those racist thoughts and the true mark of a person is in their ability to hear those inner thoughts and still be able to treat people with respect no matter where they come from.



There isn't any real solutions - people are people and there will always be differences too big to get over. It's a shame and we should all work hard to counter racism but I feel that it is a battle too big to win.



And as for me leaving the country if I don't like it - what would be the point of that? The most patriotic thing that a person can do is to criticise the government/country.



It is what keeps the politicians honest and helps to further improve the country.



And oh yeah - if you ever want to win a debate with an Australian who wants to go the way of a Republic all you have to do is mention the Commonwealth Games and how they would no longer be able to participate and win all those medals. They'll change their minds.

 

[Prestwick]

Hahaha, I'd say that but it ain't my country, I could give my opinion (pragmatic Monarchist here) but thats about it.