Political Crisis in Canada

[Prestwick]

Completely bang on, Canadian Rugger.

The Commonwealth contingent of the NATO force in Afghanistan (Australia, Britain and Canada) have been asked to perform a mission way beyond what was initially asked of them with a fraction of the force levels and equipment. The British Army and the Danes have had a tough battle of it in Helmand province whilst the Canadians and Dutch have had a torrid time of it in Kandahar but have fought with distinction and have tried as hard as they can to make lives better for ordinary Afghans.

And where have the likes of Germany, Italy or Spain been? Swanning around on a paid for holiday in Northern Afghanistan. It is utterly infuriating that with a situation as critical as Afghanistan (which produces most of the world's heroin and has the capability of being a breeding ground for terror to be exported to Europe once more) is treated in such a half hearted and ignorant way by the governments of Continental Europe.

Britian public opinion is at the stage where most people object to Britain being in Afghanistan but that they should stay the course because we know what is at stake if we just suddenly pull out. I'm sorry but the brutal truth is that the peoples of Germany, Italy and Spain simply do not have this mindset. They don't realise that by pulling out, they risk plunging Afghanistan back into chaos and that they risk the scourge of heroin flooding the streets of their cities.

This is the 21st century, you can't hide behind the United States any more. You can't just hide in Western Europe and think the big bad world won't hurt you and you can't just sit there and either appease or try and ignore the tyrants who act as wolfs at the doors of Fortress Europe. So why is this the general view of the peoples of Continental Europe?

Whatever people think in Germany and Italy think, we've had enough here in the Canada and the UK. If Canada pulled out tomorrow, I honestly wouldn't blame them because Europe has let the world down on this. Big time.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

So true Prestwick, the Brits, Canadians, Dutch, Danes have all punched well above their weight. We, the Canadians, are a country with a small armed forces numbering 62,000 in strength and we have contributed troops to Afghanistan since 2001, more then 20,000 Canadians will have served in Afghanistan by 2010, thats our entire army right there.

I know where the Europeans are coming from though and why they have the opinions they do. We were much the same but 9/11 woke us up a lot. We realized that security wasn't just an American problem it was everyone's problem. We have slowly begun upgrading our military and security forces to meet the requirements of a leading middle power in the world.

I have seen more new equipment come into the Canadian Armed Forces in the past 6 years since I joined then some senior officers had seen in their entire 20 years prior. We are now at the cutting edge of army technology and our navy and air force are getting there as well.

This doesn't just have to do with Afghanistan though... the Canadian people have really woken up to the fact that this is a globalized world and we need a capable military to be able to protect our interests and respond with force if necessary.

And on us pulling out of Afghanistan we have set 2011 as the pullout date, the government is firm on this and they have said someone else better take over because we won't be there past that date. I could see France stepping up to the plate soon Sarkozky seems like a very proactive President, and he would like to rebuild some bridges with the US.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

on that note 3 more Canadians were killed today

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Home/Cont...c&date=True

Death toll has reached 100

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canadian_Rugger @ Dec 5 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

And on us pulling out of Afghanistan we have set 2011 as the pullout date, the government is firm on this and they have said someone else better take over because we won't be there past that date. I could see France stepping up to the plate soon Sarkozky seems like a very proactive President, and he would like to rebuild some bridges with the US.[/b]

Maybe, but for how long? Knowing the French, they'll be there for around 18 months before France is brought to a standstill and Sarkozy has to pull them out or move them to the North of the country.

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 5 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The situation is very confusing at the moment. There are a few conflicting polls which either back elections or back the coalition. Some say that if there were fresh elections, Harper would be re-elected, others say that the coalition would be elected to government.

The next 45 odd days will be crucial but also very unpredictable. Dion and Layton need to prepare for Budget day and how to respond to whatever it is that Harper has planned. Harper however has hamstrung himself because right now, he has frozen any ability to legislate or create any new emergency fiscal plan as this must be put before Parliament. If he does have to go back to Parliament before the suspension ends then that will be incredibly humiliating for him.

Extraordinarily high stakes here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Dec 5 2008, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really think that the European countries will follow fighting each other and sign this kind of treaty? Come on, 21st century has started more than seven years ago now...

Ceuta and Melilla should be returned to Morroco no problem with that. These pieces of land are clearly Morrocan. My point was that we were discussing of the land UK has been colonising in Spain, not of what Spain occupies in Morroco which is not part of the UK.

Gibraltarians are not citizens of the country's land they're occupying so I don't see why they should be consulted. When Algeria was returned to Algerian people there was no point in asking Pieds Noirs opinion.[/b]

The 21st century may well be into almost its eighth full year but remember that there has been war and bitter discourse in the Balkans and Georgia followed by treaties and declarations unilaterally transferring land from one party to another.

The first thing that has always irked me about the European Union is the idea that it can lecture people on the ideas of peaceful co-existence and it is this holier than thou attitude (as well as its general reluctance to actually get its hands dirty) that condemned hundreds of thousands to their deaths in the Balkans during the 1990s.

Again, comparing a people like the Pied Noir who were generally a not very nice people clinging onto a dream that was rapidly vanishing and backing to the hilt a French regime which was as savage as it was brutal and which completely backfired in the end, to compare them with around 30,000 people who live peacefully with others on the penninsula, who democractically elect their own government and who are quite happy to share the bit of rock that they're on is frankly crazy.

You can't compare the Pied Noir with the Gibraltarians. Its a silly comparison and it gives me a migraine just trying to work out how they are similar... unless the British Army has carried out any brutal reprisals or burnt any villages on the Gibraltarian penninsular in the last fifty years? In any case, please stop using it.

My point at the end of the day is that this is set in stone. The only way you are going to turf these peace loving and friendly 30,000 people off of the rock is by invasion. And thats the bottom line.
[/b][/quote]

I think you are not understanding me or making too many assumptions about what I'm saying. This may be due to my bad English.

When I compared Gibraltarians and Pieds Noirs it's the fact that both are and were colonizers full stop. Nothing related to their behaviours and traditions. Gibraltarians could be angels it would be the same. There won't be a war between Spain and UK so Gilbratarians can continue peacefully occupying this piece of land. I don't hate them, I am just saying they are living in Spain that's all. I hope this is clear now.

Regarding Europe the treaties that used to be signed among the countries in conflict are no more used to settle these conflicts. For example our respective countries and many others according to the old diplomacy rules are still in war versus Germany. Anyway my point was that wars in Europe are no more concluded with these treaties. I don't think there's going to be any treaty signed between Georgia and Russia recognizing the sessession of two of the Georgian provinces. Similarly it is doubtful that Kosovo independence will be recognised through treaty by Serbia.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 5 2008, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Completely bang on, Canadian Rugger.

The Commonwealth contingent of the NATO force in Afghanistan (Australia, Britain and Canada) have been asked to perform a mission way beyond what was initially asked of them with a fraction of the force levels and equipment. The British Army and the Danes have had a tough battle of it in Helmand province whilst the Canadians and Dutch have had a torrid time of it in Kandahar but have fought with distinction and have tried as hard as they can to make lives better for ordinary Afghans.

And where have the likes of Germany, Italy or Spain been? Swanning around on a paid for holiday in Northern Afghanistan. It is utterly infuriating that with a situation as critical as Afghanistan (which produces most of the world's heroin and has the capability of being a breeding ground for terror to be exported to Europe once more) is treated in such a half hearted and ignorant way by the governments of Continental Europe.

Britian public opinion is at the stage where most people object to Britain being in Afghanistan but that they should stay the course because we know what is at stake if we just suddenly pull out. I'm sorry but the brutal truth is that the peoples of Germany, Italy and Spain simply do not have this mindset. They don't realise that by pulling out, they risk plunging Afghanistan back into chaos and that they risk the scourge of heroin flooding the streets of their cities.

This is the 21st century, you can't hide behind the United States any more. You can't just hide in Western Europe and think the big bad world won't hurt you and you can't just sit there and either appease or try and ignore the tyrants who act as wolfs at the doors of Fortress Europe. So why is this the general view of the peoples of Continental Europe?

Whatever people think in Germany and Italy think, we've had enough here in the Canada and the UK. If Canada pulled out tomorrow, I honestly wouldn't blame them because Europe has let the world down on this. Big time.[/b]

Solving Afghanistan issues would require not only important military resources but also helping this country to develop. Countries like Spain and Italy are not investing sufficiently in their armies while Germany has been forbidden to constitute a powerful army.

Furthermore many people are confused and think that Iraq and Afghanistan are more or less the same and don't want their countries to be/remain involved in these conflicts.

 

[Prestwick]

Too many assumptions.

The comparison is still simply silly because the two peoples are completely different and the two situations also completely different. If after 300 years, those people are still "colonisers" what does that make most of the populations of the USA and Canada?!

I'd understand if you compared the Gibraltarians with, say, the Spanish in Ceuta but the Pied Noir?

Also, I seriously doubt that Serbia will ever sign a treaty over Kosovo. The EU has assumed that Serbia will eventually get bored and give up but nobody really understands just how strong any of the Balkan states feel about issues of land, tradition and so on. Serbia will only recognise Kosovan independence if Kosovo agrees to handover the Northern part of the country to Serbia (i.e. the areas where the Serbian enclaves are) and even that is a bit of an educated guess.

On Afghanistan, do you think that French will step in to fill the gap left by the soon to depart Canadians? I do know that in the center of the country France has been trying but that also public opinion has been shaken by the disaster that befell French when they were ambushed earlier this year.

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 5 2008, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canadian_Rugger @ Dec 5 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And on us pulling out of Afghanistan we have set 2011 as the pullout date, the government is firm on this and they have said someone else better take over because we won't be there past that date. I could see France stepping up to the plate soon Sarkozky seems like a very proactive President, and he would like to rebuild some bridges with the US.[/b]

Maybe, but for how long? Knowing the French, they'll be there for around 18 months before France is brought to a standstill and Sarkozy has to pull them out or move them to the North of the country.
[/b][/quote]

They have been involved since the beginning and have not decreased their involvement as far as I know, this was not Sarkozy who sent the French army over there. There are regions assigned to each of the countries I think. Have they changed?

 

[Prestwick]

Well, Germany and Italy staked out the quietest areas first before anyone else took a look. The swine.

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 6 2008, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Too many assumptions.

The comparison is still simply silly because the two peoples are completely different and the two situations also completely different. If after 300 years, those people are still "colonisers" what does that make most of the populations of the USA and Canada?!

I'd understand if you compared the Gibraltarians with, say, the Spanish in Ceuta but the Pied Noir?

Also, I seriously doubt that Serbia will ever sign a treaty over Kosovo. The EU has assumed that Serbia will eventually get bored and give up but nobody really understands just how strong any of the Balkan states feel about issues of land, tradition and so on. Serbia will only recognise Kosovan independence if Kosovo agrees to handover the Northern part of the country to Serbia (i.e. the areas where the Serbian enclaves are) and even that is a bit of an educated guess.

On Afghanistan, do you think that French will step in to fill the gap left by the soon to depart Canadians? I do know that in the center of the country France has been trying but that also public opinion has been shaken by the disaster that befell French when they were ambushed earlier this year.[/b]

My mistake, I have no problem in comparing Ceuta or Melilla people who are there since 1497 and Gilbratarians. Melilla and Ceuta are aberrations and should be returned to Morocco. I think the same of Gibraltar.

France army is increasing the number of troops in Afghanistan for the time being. There are some logistic issues because French troops are involved in many different places and with current organisation they are not that far from their maximum capabilities in term of remote operations.

So far there's no big opposition to the involvement in Afghanistan, majority of the French people are OK with this. This may change though if there were many soldiers killed over there.

 

[Charles]

About Afghanistan, I think everybody knows that now but it's Russia and America's mess in the first place. Nobody moved a finger when the war ended and Afghanistan fell in Civil War. The CIA armed and trained the Taliban's and then they just left.

Also, you can send whatever soldiers you like in Afhganistan, it's of no use if you don't clean the mess in Pakistan.

Finally, nobody has ever won a war against the Afghanis. Ever.

 

[Prestwick]

We kind of did. True, they did boot us out of Kabul but what the Afghans don't tell you about is the second Afghan "expedition" which was basically an excuse to run into Afghanistan, give the Afghan's a good kicking before nicking half of Kabul and Kandahar, dismantling it and carting it back to India.

I think theres a park or two in New Delhi which holds a few Afghan temples and buildings.

You guys should read "Flashman" by George Fraser, its a great way of reading about how the British adventure in Afghanistan went down and quite hilarious at times too.