Nuovo Ordine Mondiale - Pro14: Round 6

[Leonormous Boozer]

Una cosa è certa: non c'è nessuna fermazione; gli italiani sono qui per rimanere. E per uno i nostri nuovi signori italiani. Vorrei ricordargli che, come personalità del forum TRF Pro 14, posso essere utile per arricchire gli altri per cedere al loro rugby superiore

I don't think that has come out brilliantly through translate but Simpsons fans will get it!

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/pro-14-2017-2018/matches

Edinburgh v I cavalli scuri - Edinburgh had improved last weekend against Leinster and were arguably robbed by some 'one sided' refereeing of the breakdown but Zebre are **** hot having given Ulster their first L of the season, this could really go either way. If Embra turn up at home they'll likely win, Zebre have been more consistent though and if they're given a sniff they'll take it home.

Cardiff v Dragons - Welsh **** v Stinking Welsh ****, expect Cardiff to take it home in the Arms Park in front of a man and his dog...

Ulster v Connacht - Ulster will want to bounce back after their lesson in rugby last week and Connacht could be given a similar description that I gave the aforementioned Welsh sides, their Ravenhill drought won't end.

Cheetahs v Glasgow - If there's a team to win in Bloemfontein it's Glasgow but with an eye on Europe next week scheduling is very much against them, for this reason I believe they'll join their Champions Cup pool three rivals with one loss before the start of the competition in a fortnight's time.

Leinster v Munster - Another tough one to call, Munster have undoubtedly been in better form but Leinster's season has started with this fixture since the Joe show took over back in 2010. With Johnny 10 having had his 'warm up game' he needs to get back to best 10 in the world level and the return of Robbie Henshaw to sure up the frailties in midfield Leinster's structured game should come to the fore and the Lansdowne Road unbeaten streak should be stretched until Exeter's visit in December. Other factors to look at are a broken Jean Kleyn, Rory O'Loughlin's likely return to the wing and Sexton v Bleyendaal being the biggest gulf in class in sport marginally ahead of the Harlem Globetrotters v the Washington Generals.

Ospreys v Scarlets - One of these sides can play rugby... Your guess as to which is as good as mine!

La Champions eletti v Southern Kings - The end of the Currie Cup can't come soon enough for the Kings, playing powerhouses won't help them at all!


Edit: Posted the link to Ultimate rugby because I believe it gives the KO times as your local time, let me know if this is less than satisfactory.

 

[Amiga500]

Veni, vidi, vici

"Friends, Romans, countrymen.... lend me your kicking boots"

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Cheetahs
20:35Fri, Oct 6

Glasgow

That is a time I can work with, thanks, OP. And thank you to our organizers. The forced 5 o' clock kick off last week Friday meant I could only catch snatches of the game between catching falling babies, fielding last minute business calls from client's who forgot all about me during busy work weeks, ******** on Telkom for their terrible intermittent internet "service provision" and stopping my 4 year old boy from murdering his 2 year old sister while trying to get food into their traps.

A few less predictable fixtures this weekend though last weeks' predictability showed me what I knew. Can hardly wait.

 

[Groundhog]

"One thing is certain: there is no stopping; the Italians are here to stay. And for one of our new Italian lords. I would like to remind you that, as a personality of the TRF Pro 14 forum, I can be useful to enrich others to give up their upper rugby"
What did you use to translate this you caveman? Why didn't you take Latin in school? It's what separates the rulers from the ruled in this world.

On the only relevant game in, lets face it the tournament (Italian mastery not withstanding) it's tough to call. We have a bad record in the botched circumcision stadium and both sides generally lift their performance for this game, while also dragging each other into the dirt, but we're in slightly better form and our team looks a bit more settled second row aside. I think Farrell could run riot on any infant Leinster dare to put in his way in the name of promoting youth though. I would have to say we've both looked pretty fragile defensively out wide thus far, while also scoring a couple of worldies there too.
It probably does come down to how Sexy plays and if Bleyendaal has sorted out his kicking. If he's not nailing them in training, I'd honestly rather see Keatley and then some Hanrahan if things go awry.
Munster to play poorly and then win last minute with a Hanrahan step and shame down the right wing. Leinster to get relegated to the Pro D2 not long after.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

"One thing is certain: there is no stopping; the Italians are here to stay. And for one of our new Italian lords. I would like to remind you that, as a personality of the TRF Pro 14 forum, I can be useful to enrich others to give up their upper rugby"
What did you use to translate this you caveman? Why didn't you take Latin in school? It's what separates the rulers from the ruled in this world.

On the only relevant game in, lets face it the tournament (Italian mastery not withstanding) it's tough to call. We have a bad record in the botched circumcision stadium and both sides generally lift their performance for this game, while also dragging each other into the dirt, but we're in slightly better form and our team looks a bit more settled second row aside. I think Farrell could run riot on any infant Leinster dare to put in his way in the name of promoting youth though. I would have to say we've both looked pretty fragile defensively out wide thus far, while also scoring a couple of worldies there too.
It probably does come down to how Sexy plays and if Bleyendaal has sorted out his kicking. If he's not nailing them in training, I'd honestly rather see Keatley and then some Hanrahan if things go awry.
Munster to play poorly and then win last minute with a Hanrahan step and shame down the right wing. Leinster to get relegated to the Pro D2 not long after.

It was supposed to be Kent Brockman's quote welcoming the new ant/Italian overlords! Translate ****** rode me bro!

Leinster's centres will be Reid and Henshaw I'd imagine. No advantage there.

 

[Groundhog]

Henshaw the standout best centre on the field, but I feel Munster may have the better unit and balance on the day if they fire well. Henshaw hasn't played in a good while as well, may not last a full game.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

To be honest I'd only rate Scannell higher than Reid by virtue of being the superior athlete, very similar "almost creative enough to be a 10" inside centres. (Obviously Reid eclipses the Scan man in passing the ball as Ireland's best passer) so Henshaw at 75% or better will probably give Leinster's parity at worst and a bosh merchant is useless against JS10 and Henshaw so it could get very one dimensional and boring. Might not matter either because if Leinster's pack finally show up I think you'll struggle.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Those timings are the same as the official website, mixing GMT+1 and GMT+2. It lists kickoff times in the timezones of the home team. Viewers in the British isles will have to take an hour off the time for any matches in SA and Italy (and vice versa).

Cracking set fixtures - I'd happily watch all of these matches if I could. Every game up for grabs. Depending on selections I pick the winners as:

Zebre (Bradley to beat his old side due to superior scoring potential and predicted good conditions)

Dragons (marginally better than the Blues so far in my opinion - every bit as improved as the Italians but moving underneath the radar. Time for a New Welsh Order to be established)

Glasgow (Finn is travelling so they are taking this seriously. The league needs a reality check for the Cheetahs to restore some credibility. If the Cheetahs win this then the impact of the unbeaten Stapelberg and Mohoje will be further underlined and they should be considered favourite for top seed in Conference A to me)

Ulster (over this seasons perennial nearly men, Connacht. A few points extra in a few matches and Connacht would be in a playoff spot)

Leinster

Scarlets (Ospreys look so ordinary)

Treviso (but Kings might get their first LBP of the season due to the low scoring of Treviso)

 

[Groundhog]

To be honest I'd only rate Scannell higher than Reid by virtue of being the superior athlete, very similar "almost creative enough to be a 10" inside centres. (Obviously Reid eclipses the Scan man in passing the ball as Ireland's best passer) so Henshaw at 75% or better will probably give Leinster's parity at worst and a bosh merchant is useless against JS10 and Henshaw so it could get very one dimensional and boring. Might not matter either because if Leinster's pack finally show up I think you'll struggle.

Scannell is superior to Reid in every way. Defensively outshines him by a mile and can actually break a line. Also harsh to call (I presume) Farrell just a bosh merchant from what I've seen so far. He did step untouched free to set up a try last weekend for example. and looks for soft shoulders His hands are definitely not a weakness.
We'll see about the pack anyway. Once again Leinster have a lot of internationals, pedigree and depth, but I wouldn't expect a huge amount between us in scrum (advantage Leinster, but I'm not sure they'll be pushing for penalties) or lineout (not so solid for both so far), and the backrow will be a right old battle. Leinster's conveyor belt etc, but we do still have two Lions there and a man who always puts up very big tackle stats regardless. I don't think Leinster will expose us out wide like Glasgow did, but some of your more dynamic forwards could kill us with if they get their hands free in the tackle, as we've been so soft in shutting down offloads as well. Also our second row looks so thin right now. Mark bloody Flanagan could start if they don't trust Copeland (they should) and Holland will put in a solid shift, but we have nothing else.
Not sure what they'll do with the back three, if they'll want Earls straight back, if they'll reward form over Zebo or if Sweetnam's awful positioning last week costing him. I would say Conway is the only guarantee to start there.
Honestly I'm expecting another close quartered Aviva showdown with Leinster edging it by less than 5, but it could go either way. Wouldn't confidently bet on either side. Win or lose go on the booze.
Munster by 20. Leinster lost to bloody Cheetahs.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Scannell is superior to Reid in every way. Defensively outshines him by a mile and can actually break a line. Also harsh to call (I presume) Farrell just a bosh merchant from what I've seen so far. He did step untouched free to set up a try last weekend for example. and looks for soft shoulders His hands are definitely not a weakness.
We'll see about the pack anyway. Once again Leinster have a lot of internationals, pedigree and depth, but I wouldn't expect a huge amount between us in scrum (advantage Leinster, but I'm not sure they'll be pushing for penalties) or lineout (not so solid for both so far), and the backrow will be a right old battle. Leinster's conveyor belt etc, but we do still have two Lions there and a man who always puts up very big tackle stats regardless. I don't think Leinster will expose us out wide like Glasgow did, but some of your more dynamic forwards could kill us with if they get their hands free in the tackle, as we've been so soft in shutting down offloads as well. Also our second row looks so thin right now. Mark bloody Flanagan could start if they don't trust Copeland (they should) and Holland will put in a solid shift, but we have nothing else.
Not sure what they'll do with the back three, if they'll want Earls straight back, if they'll reward form over Zebo or if Sweetnam's awful positioning last week costing him. I would say Conway is the only guarantee to start there.
Honestly I'm expecting another close quartered Aviva showdown with Leinster edging it by less than 5, but it could go either way. Wouldn't confidently bet on either side. Win or lose go on the booze.
Munster by 20. Leinster lost to bloody Cheetahs.

I think there's some overrating and underrating going on there, Reid is a good defender at 12 (not so much at 13 but he isn't a 13) and Scannell simply doesn't have the range of passing Reid has. The athletic difference is the big difference its why Scannell has three line breaks and 8 defenders beaten compared to Reid's 1 and 4. Reid might not even play it could be Henshaw and RO'L which would make both teams more potent in attack.

I think the front five will be a huge difference, maybe not at set piece but with McGrath, Furlong and Fardy Leinster are offering much more around the park that Kilcoyne, Ryan and whoever the ****.

 

[Groundhog]

I think there's some overrating and underrating going on there, Reid is a good defender at 12 (not so much at 13 but he isn't a 13) and Scannell simply doesn't have the range of passing Reid has. The athletic difference is the big difference its why Scannell has three line breaks and 8 defenders beaten compared to Reid's 1 and 4. Reid might not even play it could be Henshaw and RO'L which would make both teams more potent in attack.

I think the front five will be a huge difference, maybe not at set piece but with McGrath, Furlong and Fardy Leinster are offering much more around the park that Kilcoyne, Ryan and whoever the ****.

I see no evidence as to where you're pulling the outright passing superiority from. Reid can pass, but Scannell didn't wander in from playing outhalf his whole life without being a very god distributor. Not always the role he's asked to play mind, but still. Scannell is physically dominant in a lot of his tackles, times well and actively drives players back, which Reid is not really capable of. It's a case of a good distributor vs a well rounded centre.
Either way it's a moot point as yeah O'Loughlin at 13 with DK and Byrne(?) on the wings is also pretty likely and in my opinion stronger for the game that's in it.
On the front 5, they're not as good as Leinster's, but Kilcoyne (lack of rugby intelligence lets him down, but a good mobile carrier), Scannell and Ryan is about as mobile a front row as you'll find, not as such for carrying for the latter two, more for getting through work, but our second row should be outclassed if you have any dignity as a province and don't want to be the team who missed the boat on Mark ******* Flanagan of all people.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Glasgow (Finn is travelling so they are taking this seriously. The league needs a reality check for the Cheetahs to restore some credibility. If the Cheetahs win this then the impact of the unbeaten Stapelberg and Mohoje will be further underlined and they should be considered favourite for top seed in Conference A to me)

I think it is largely a case of Cheetahs underperforming away from home and visiting teams underperforming in Bloem. Altitude is real. I ran 400m hurdles relatively competitively (it took a young Wayde van Niekerk to beat my WP record that stood more than a decade.. and the dude didn't even really focus on hurdles- what an athlete!... anyway..) at school and the national championships were always up North, in either Jo'Burg, or Germiston, or Pretoria etc etc, IE our central, dense and populated areas. Anyway, I always way underperformed and then the rare occasion a pre-season meet was in the Cape I'd do very well and one time even came close to LJ van Zyl. Anyway, the burning lungs and rare air get to you if you aren't used to it and that was just over 50 seconds so I can imagine what a stop start 80 minutes might feel like even to pro athletes if they aren't used to it.

Cheetahs have a rep for traveling poor in any case. It'll even out as they get more fixtures in Europe again I'd imagine and probably unless the Cheetahs have a belter I expect Glasgow will have the better of it on the weekend.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think it is largely a case of Cheetahs underperforming away from home and visiting teams underperforming in Bloem. Altitude is real. I ran 400m hurdles relatively competitively (it took a young Wayde van Niekerk to beat my WP record that stood more than a decade.. and the dude didn't even really focus on hurdles- what an athlete!... anyway..) at school and the national championships were always up North, in either Jo'Burg, or Germiston, or Pretoria etc etc, IE our central, dense and populated areas. Anyway, I always way underperformed and then the rare occasion a pre-season meet was in the Cape I'd do very well and one time even came close to LJ van Zyl. Anyway, the burning lungs and rare air get to you if you aren't used to it and that was just over 50 seconds so I can imagine what a stop start 80 minutes might feel like even to pro athletes if they aren't used to it.

Cheetahs have a rep for traveling poor in any case. It'll even out as they get more fixtures in Europe again I'd imagine and probably unless the Cheetahs have a belter I expect Glasgow will have the better of it on the weekend.

Yeah, I think altitude isn't being taken as seriously as it should be, and has been partially the downfall of the teams that visited Bloem. You could see that in most of those games, the Cheetahs hit their stride in the second half, and are usually behind on points at half time.

But not only that, I think the Cheetahs are adapting rather well to their opponents playing style, and have also done a few tweaks to their own play. I think as the tournament progresses, we will see if they are ***le contenders. Cheetahs are poor travellers though, but does have the knack of getting an upset win away from home.

The other issue is that in due time, some of their injured players will return, like Niel Marais and Fred Zeilinga. Although, Stapelberg has been rather impressive so far.

The other thing is the question on whether the Cheetahs might bolster their squad with new signings? So far it's been dead quiet in SA with regard to signings and transfers. But my guess is that in the next few weeks, we will be seeing some changes. Especially as the Currie Cup is getting close to the playoffs, and Super Rugby Franchises starts their preparation for next year.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah, I think altitude isn't being taken as seriously as it should be, and has been partially the downfall of the teams that visited Bloem. You could see that in most of those games, the Cheetahs hit their stride in the second half, and are usually behind on points at half time.

But not only that, I think the Cheetahs are adapting rather well to their opponents playing style, and have also done a few tweaks to their own play. I think as the tournament progresses, we will see if they are ***le contenders. Cheetahs are poor travellers though, but does have the knack of getting an upset win away from home.

The other issue is that in due time, some of their injured players will return, like Niel Marais and Fred Zeilinga. Although, Stapelberg has been rather impressive so far.

The other thing is the question on whether the Cheetahs might bolster their squad with new signings? So far it's been dead quiet in SA with regard to signings and transfers. But my guess is that in the next few weeks, we will be seeing some changes. Especially as the Currie Cup is getting close to the playoffs, and Super Rugby Franchises starts their preparation for next year.

I agree with what you're saying. I also think the Cheetahs are taken defense in general more seriously as well even if I wouldn't call them a good defensive team. A lot of that is down to some of their more solid performers returning in Mohoje, Venter and TvJ IMO rather than them being a 7s side playing Union. That and Stapelberg being an actual fly half. It'll be ineresting to see which way they go when Marais and Zeilinga are also fit. There's not much to seperate these 3 as far as I am concerned. If anything they'll have better depth at 10 and can cover 12 and 15 better as well. Speaking of 15 I think they'd do well to have one of their better kickers cover 15 on tour rather than a 'kick-return-runner' per se if I am getting my thoughts out clearly LOL.

More interesting than who might be playing at 10 (they could lend one to the Kings even?) is who might come in (or even out) of the Cheetahs fold. I see their weak spots as being lock, 6, 12(ish) and 15. Marais, Zeilinga and Cassiem (if fit- don't know what the ETA is on his injury might be) might sure up the weaknesses (I percieve) in the backrow and backline. IMO they should fork out for proper world class locks. Pivotal in Euro conditions and we do have quite a number of quality locks in SA. The Cheetahs just do not seem to ever value them. I suppose the more relevant question rather than what they need will be what type of money is available and who is available/willing. Those questions have me in the dark.

They shouldn't be afraid to get old men in either IMO. Just recently Heinrich Brussow and Juan Smith were still available. Old yes but quality and experienced. Something this Cheetahs side needs and those are old Cheetah players in any case. Might lure Andries Bekker back to SA? Screw Nippon's Top League. Lood de Jager back to the Cheetahs after/while he isn't playing for the Bokke? Bulls have quality youth at lock. There are a million quality SA locks in Europe but I expect their contracts will be prohibitive. Where in the world is Johan Goosen? A possible exciting ex-Cheetahs player at center or fullback. Willie le Roux or Riaan Viljoen back at 15? I'm just musing now.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I agree with what you're saying. I also think the Cheetahs are taken defense in general more seriously as well even if I wouldn't call them a good defensive team. A lot of that is down to some of their more solid performers returning in Mohoje, Venter and TvJ IMO rather than them being a 7s side playing Union. That and Stapelberg being an actual fly half. It'll be ineresting to see which way they go when Marais and Zeilinga are also fit. There's not much to seperate these 3 as far as I am concerned. If anything they'll have better depth at 10 and can cover 12 and 15 better as well. Speaking of 15 I think they'd do well to have one of their better kickers cover 15 on tour rather than a 'kick-return-runner' per se if I am getting my thoughts out clearly LOL.

More interesting than who might be playing at 10 (they could lend one to the Kings even?) is who might come in (or even out) of the Cheetahs fold. I see their weak spots as being lock, 6, 12(ish) and 15. Marais, Zeilinga and Cassiem (if fit- don't know what the ETA is on his injury might be) might sure up the weaknesses (I percieve) in the backrow and backline. IMO they should fork out for proper world class locks. Pivotal in Euro conditions and we do have quite a number of quality locks in SA. The Cheetahs just do not seem to ever value them. I suppose the more relevant question rather than what they need will be what type of money is available and who is available/willing. Those questions have me in the dark.

They shouldn't be afraid to get old men in either IMO. Just recently Heinrich Brussow and Juan Smith were still available. Old yes but quality and experienced. Something this Cheetahs side needs and those are old Cheetah players in any case. Might lure Andries Bekker back to SA? Screw Nippon's Top League. Lood de Jager back to the Cheetahs after/while he isn't playing for the Bokke? Bulls have quality youth at lock. There are a million quality SA locks in Europe but I expect their contracts will be prohibitive. Where in the world is Johan Goosen? A possible exciting ex-Cheetahs player at center or fullback. Willie le Roux or Riaan Viljoen back at 15? I'm just musing now.

It's interesting you mention Brussouw. I'm very curious to see what's going to happen to him, after his wife (who sang the South African National anthem last weekend against Australia) is making a name for herself in the SA singing market after her performance on the Voice. I know she also got a role for an opera type show. So I doubt that she'll be leaving SA soon due to her commitments.

Johan Goosen is another interesting point. He's currently in South Africa, and is still retired. But the recent reports of French Clubs trying to get him to play for him, might point to him doing a Matfield-esque return to rugby.

As for the Lock position, I really do hope they get someone there, But the question is who? I don't think any of the guys you mentioned will be attracted to the idea of playing in Bloem. It has to be someone that was either in Grey, or used to play for them (apart from Lood). Unless they get a young talent, maybe one of the U/20 baby boks, looking to play in the big leagues?

Mohoje has certainly aided their loose forwards, and I think Cassiem will do the same when he's back (I think he's out for 6 weeks).

 

[Groundhog]

Glasgow hammered us and we destroyed the Cheetahs. Logic dictates a Glasgow win, but that altitude will make the result extremely unpredictable.I will say that Glasgow are very fit and willing to match fire with fire in terms of throwing the ball wide with the Cheetahs. I definitely don't view Cheetahs as favourites to top our group regardless.

 

[Groundhog]

"Marcell Coetzee suffered a recurrence of left knee pain and swelling in training.

"Due to the ongoing problems with this knee, he is travelling back to South Africa to seek the opinion of the surgeon who performed his original ACL repair. Ulster Rugby will provide a further update following this consultation."
Ulster not catching a break with these marquee signings and awful for Coetzee

 

[Amiga500]

Coetzee is heading back to SA to see the specialist that conducted the surgery on his ACL.

I would expect this is looking a second opinion because the first one was grim.

Retirement a real possibility I'd imagine right now.


edit: Ah, 4 seconds too late.

 

[collace]

So what many of us suspected is actually the case. Ulster have been downplaying this for over a month.

Looks ominous for Coetzee and must be hugely frustrating for him. Meanwhile Ulster's streak of signing injury laden players continues unabated. We still haven't seen any sign of Schalk van der Merwe.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Glasgow hammered us and we destroyed the Cheetahs. Logic dictates a Glasgow win, but that altitude will make the result extremely unpredictable.I will say that Glasgow are very fit and willing to match fire with fire in terms of throwing the ball wide with the Cheetahs. I definitely don't view Cheetahs as favourites to top our group regardless.

They didn't have their head coach of a flyhalf against Munster. They still don't have their head coach and had a third choice fly half while putting Leinster and Ospreys to the sword. They still have a lot of potential upside.