[November Tests 2017 EOYT] Wales vs. Georgia (18/11/2017)

[valley commando]

Assuming he had leg cramps. The hypocrisy is the most staggering thing with the Welsh screeching to high heaven about this cheating and then doing pretty much the same themselves. Had Wales not kicked up such a fuss about it then I don't think this would be such a big story.

The difference is there was nothing on this match, no world ranking points but there was v France. therefore we had a right to make a fuss, but Georgia don't.
On saying that I was hoping Georgia beat us to teach the selectors a lesson -: 1. there are better players than Cuthbert in the Welsh prem. 2. Why would you pick players out of position ? 3. Why is Howler anywhere near an international side when in fact he doesn't have the credentials to coach under 10's

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The difference is there was nothing on this match, no world ranking points but there was v France. therefore we had a right to make a fuss, but Georgia don't.
On saying that I was hoping Georgia beat us to teach the selectors a lesson -: 1. there are better players than Cuthbert in the Welsh prem. 2. Why would you pick players out of position ? 3. Why is Howler anywhere near an international side when in fact he doesn't have the credentials to coach under 10's

Huh? Georgia would have shot up the rankings with a draw!

 

[MikeTheNative]

This comment from Gatland has really wound me up. 'When Rob was in charge 12 months ago, we played Japan and we didn't make many changes and there was criticism asking why. We know that we put ourselves under a bit of pressure. A group of players went out there on the weekend and gained valuable experience against a tough forward pack. - Gatland'

Howley was criticised for not picking the form players like Giles, Sam Davies etc last season not for making too little changes for this game. Honestly I don't understand how the coaching setup is far removed from everyone else sometimes.

 

[The Jones Boy]

It was good to see the Dragons young blokes getting a run and good to see Georgia making Wales uncomfortable.
The weather didn't help but it was an interesting grind.

 

[ThebigARena]

It started off with great promise problem was we had an Irish tmo hell bent on spoiling the party ! Evbruslkt georgia to their credit grinded their way into the match and our inexperience showed although we fought well ! It was a good learning exercise for our 2nd 3rd string players and let's remeber georgia are ranked higher than the likes of Italy and Samoa who pushed a 1st Scottish side all the way!

 

[valley commando]

Huh? Georgia would have shot up the rankings with a draw!

I was under the impression there were not any ranking points at stake

 

[MikeTheNative]

I was under the impression there were not any ranking points at stake

For Wales as they are a lot higher so don't gain anything from a win, Georgia could though.

 

[valley commando]

For Wales as they are a lot higher so don't gain anything from a win, Georgia could though.

Thanks Mike, I have a habit sometimes of just reading a headline.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Ross Harris on BBC Wales ScrumV was his usual fine self when he asked:

"We were all complaining about France back in the 6N. Isn't it hypocritical to be saying there was nothing wrong with Wales in those last few minutes against Georgia?"

A bit of a tumbleweed moment and silence from the Welsh pundits. Presumably because the answer was so self evident it didnt need to be said.

If you are going to say Leon Brown developed cramp after being substituted then you should apologise to the French for questioning their integrity. Us neutrals can just sit and tut at the pair of you.

 

[Goodey]

Welsh shenanigans aside, it's a bit depressing that Georgia couldn't make any forward advantage count even when they had every reason to bully a lighter (and frankly, less good) Welsh pack over the line. I think if they wanted to show they could compete in the six nations they ultimately failed.

You'd think given that kind of up front dominance, they would have been able to put together a catch and drive, or recycle pick and goes, or something. Anything to just show they can play smart, hard-nosed rugby when the time calls for it.

Not being able to take chances against a poor second string like this made them look very much a lower tier side.

 

[dullonien]

Not that it excuses the poor performance from Wales, but it's very generous to call that a 2nd string side, certainly in the forwards. Imo it would read something like:

Smith: 3rd choice behind Rob Evans & Gethin Jenkins. May quickly slip to 4th choice if his scrummaging doesn't improve.
Dacey: seems to be 2nd choice in Gatlands eyes, but I'd personally have him down in 4th behind Ken Owens, Elliot Dee & Ryan Elias.
Leon Brown: 3rd choice behind Samson Lee & Tom Francis. A fit Dillon Lewis would prob get the nod as well.
Beard: 4/5th choice at least behind AWJ, Ball & Hill, maybe Seb Davies as well if he was played in his correct position. Easy to argue Charteris should still be there ahead in the pecking order, so too Bradley Davies.
Hill: 3rd choice.
Lydiate: Should be 4th choice behind Warbs. Moriarty & Shingler, though gats may have a different opinion.
Sam Cross: 7th choice at best behind Warbs, Tips, James Davies, Ellis Jenkins, Olly Griffiths & Thomas Young, whilst I'd go further and have Navidi, Boyde & Sam Lewis ahead of him too.
Seb Davies: not even a no. 8, so difficult to judge. Not much depth, but still at least 5th choice behind Faletau, Moriarty, Dan Baker & Harry Keddie.

Webb: 1st choice.
Priestland: I'd potentially have him as 1st choice, but he's possibly behind Biggar & Anscombe for Gats, whilst there's not much in it with Patchell.
Amos: 4th choice behind North, Steff Evans & Liam Williams.
Watkin: Difficult to judge, since it's a new start at 12 for Wales. Behind Owen Williams....
Scott Williams: Clearly behind Jon Davies, whilst Tyler Morgan and possibly North would have started at 13 ahead of him if fit.
Alex Cuthbert: where to start? I'd have way, way down the pecking order with Steff Evans, North, Liam Williams, Amos, Halfpenny, Keelan Giles, Tom James & Ashton Hewitt all ahead of him. But Gatland just refuses to see it that way; even so he's realistically down in 5th choice even in Gatlands eyes now.
Liam Williams: IMO 1st choice, but probably still 2nd choice in Gats' eyes.

 

[ThebigARena]

Not that it excuses the poor performance from Wales, but it's very generous to call that a 2nd string side, certainly in the forwards. Imo it would read something like:

Smith: 3rd choice behind Rob Evans & Gethin Jenkins. May quickly slip to 4th choice if his scrummaging doesn't improve.
Dacey: seems to be 2nd choice in Gatlands eyes, but I'd personally have him down in 4th behind Ken Owens, Elliot Dee & Ryan Elias.
Leon Brown: 3rd choice behind Samson Lee & Tom Francis. A fit Dillon Lewis would prob get the nod as well.
Beard: 4/5th choice at least behind AWJ, Ball & Hill, maybe Seb Davies as well if he was played in his correct position. Easy to argue Charteris should still be there ahead in the pecking order, so too Bradley Davies.
Hill: 3rd choice.
Lydiate: Should be 4th choice behind Warbs. Moriarty & Shingler, though gats may have a different opinion.
Sam Cross: 7th choice at best behind Warbs, Tips, James Davies, Ellis Jenkins, Olly Griffiths & Thomas Young, whilst I'd go further and have Navidi, Boyde & Sam Lewis ahead of him too.
Seb Davies: not even a no. 8, so difficult to judge. Not much depth, but still at least 5th choice behind Faletau, Moriarty, Dan Baker & Harry Keddie.

Webb: 1st choice.
Priestland: I'd potentially have him as 1st choice, but he's possibly behind Biggar & Anscombe for Gats, whilst there's not much in it with Patchell.
Amos: 4th choice behind North, Steff Evans & Liam Williams.
Watkin: Difficult to judge, since it's a new start at 12 for Wales. Behind Owen Williams....
Scott Williams: Clearly behind Jon Davies, whilst Tyler Morgan and possibly North would have started at 13 ahead of him if fit.
Alex Cuthbert: where to start? I'd have way, way down the pecking order with Steff Evans, North, Liam Williams, Amos, Halfpenny, Keelan Giles, Tom James & Ashton Hewitt all ahead of him. But Gatland just refuses to see it that way; even so he's realistically down in 5th choice even in Gatlands eyes now.
Liam Williams: IMO 1st choice, but probably still 2nd choice in Gats' eyes.

On balance it was a 3rd string choice mostly, Amos is an interesting one whilst he is behind Steff Evans and Liam Williams he's probably ahead of the likes of giles and north at this moment although I feel the latter 2 in form would overtake him! Cuthbert whilst playing very decently for Cardiff has not been able to transform his form on the international stage seriously he literally crumbles everytime he puts on that Welsh jersey . The centre partnership going forward is going to be interesting now with Jon Davies injured Scott has been promoted to 1st choice but his form of late has been poor which is a shame as a few seasons ago he was unquestionably first name down on team sheet status, Owen Watkin wasn't partically impressive either and he would be 4th choice for me I think now with the inclusion of hadleigh parkes being available for the final game it could be interesting and he could stick his hand up if gats decides to give him a go! I know for scarlets he's exceptional and someone I rate highly. I'm still not convinced by Priestland although he is unquestionably in form 10 for bath and the premiership Im somewhat not sure he handles international pressure as well and I think bigger does rise to the international occasion better imo but yeah it's all debatable .

 

[valley commando]

Not that it excuses the poor performance from Wales, but it's very generous to call that a 2nd string side, certainly in the forwards. Imo it would read something like:

Smith: 3rd choice behind Rob Evans & Gethin Jenkins. May quickly slip to 4th choice if his scrummaging doesn't improve.
Dacey: seems to be 2nd choice in Gatlands eyes, but I'd personally have him down in 4th behind Ken Owens, Elliot Dee & Ryan Elias.
Leon Brown: 3rd choice behind Samson Lee & Tom Francis. A fit Dillon Lewis would prob get the nod as well.
Beard: 4/5th choice at least behind AWJ, Ball & Hill, maybe Seb Davies as well if he was played in his correct position. Easy to argue Charteris should still be there ahead in the pecking order, so too Bradley Davies.
Hill: 3rd choice.
Lydiate: Should be 4th choice behind Warbs. Moriarty & Shingler, though gats may have a different opinion.
Sam Cross: 7th choice at best behind Warbs, Tips, James Davies, Ellis Jenkins, Olly Griffiths & Thomas Young, whilst I'd go further and have Navidi, Boyde & Sam Lewis ahead of him too.
Seb Davies: not even a no. 8, so difficult to judge. Not much depth, but still at least 5th choice behind Faletau, Moriarty, Dan Baker & Harry Keddie.

Webb: 1st choice.
Priestland: I'd potentially have him as 1st choice, but he's possibly behind Biggar & Anscombe for Gats, whilst there's not much in it with Patchell.
Amos: 4th choice behind North, Steff Evans & Liam Williams.
Watkin: Difficult to judge, since it's a new start at 12 for Wales. Behind Owen Williams....
Scott Williams: Clearly behind Jon Davies, whilst Tyler Morgan and possibly North would have started at 13 ahead of him if fit.
Alex Cuthbert: where to start? I'd have way, way down the pecking order with Steff Evans, North, Liam Williams, Amos, Halfpenny, Keelan Giles, Tom James & Ashton Hewitt all ahead of him. But Gatland just refuses to see it that way; even so he's realistically down in 5th choice even in Gatlands eyes now.
Liam Williams: IMO 1st choice, but probably still 2nd choice in Gats' eyes.

Agree completely, with 2 exceptions I see Sam Davies when back form wise as 1 or 2 with Biggar and I see Cuthbert at about 38th behind most of the wingers in the Welsh prem

 

[dullonien]

Agree completely, with 2 exceptions I see Sam Davies when back form wise as 1 or 2 with Biggar and I see Cuthbert at about 38th behind most of the wingers in the Welsh prem

Unfortunately I see Sam Davies as nowhere near until he shows some form and consistency. He's been shocking for a good 6 months+, and it'll take a prolonged period of form to convince me that he's overcome that slump. This is similar to Priestland really, it's taken a couple of years of good performances with Bath to prove to me that he's ready for another shot with Wales.

I'd love nothing more than to see Davies back in form, because he was showing real class, and a beautiful variety to his game for much of last season. I know it's not entirely all his fault either, with the ospreys as a whole in a bit of a mess, but it shows that he's not ready when he can't bring some calmness and control, even if those around him can't.

As for Cuthbert, agree entirely. he's been almost as socking for the Blues, and IMO has shown virtually no recovery with them. Simply having some games where he's not a mistake ridden mess doesn't prove that he's 'playing very decently' for the Blues. He's still scoring very, very few try's, creates almost nothing, and is way below regional level atm. Tom James and Aled Summerhill have shown more than Cuthbert for the Blues, even if they too are inconsistent. The comparison with Steff Evans is like night and day. I don't see him recovering either, he doesn't posses the handling ability, footwork or rugby intelligence to compete in modern rugby, in the same way Gatland Ball no longer works as a game plan. Simply running hard and fast isn't enough, and Gatland needs to realize that.

 

[valley commando]

GOOD NEWS BAD NEWS

Good news Cuthberts injured, bad news Roberts may play v NZ.
Good news James Davies fit and back in the Scarlets squad (Lets get him in the 6N squad), Bad news Liam W injured.
Good news Tips training again, bad news Samson Lee not fit.

 

[ThebigARena]

GOOD NEWS BAD NEWS

Good news Cuthberts injured, bad news Roberts may play v NZ.
Good news James Davies fit and back in the Scarlets squad (Lets get him in the 6N squad), Bad news Liam W injured.
Good news Tips training again, bad news Samson Lee not fit.

Just heard about L Williams injured and out for some time this is not the news I wanted to hear with ABs on he horizon and with Roberts making a return its looking like warrenball tactics more and more

 

[valley commando]

Just heard about L Williams injured and out for some time this is not the news I wanted to hear with ABs on he horizon and with Roberts making a return its looking like warrenball tactics more and more

Yep

 

[Da Grappla]

I was so eager to watch this game as I'm very fond of Tier 2 European teams and thought as Georgia could lead the way for others to follow the example in order to join The Big Six in Europe.

Not a chance until younger generations set up a different style with real backs running lines, moving the ball around with purpose and poking holes on the rival deffensive efforts...and not mere entourage for the forwards

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I'm very much in the minority on multiple forums on my perception of the Georgians - so I may be wearing rose tinted glasses, but hear me out! Yes that was a weak Welsh pack, but the Welsh backs were quality players who play week in, week out at a good level. Defensively the Georgians restricted them to 13 points at home in one of the extremely rare occasions when the Georigans have had the opportunity to come up against a Tier 1 attack.

Yes, we might have expected more Georgian forward dominance, but with rule changes and interpretation there has never been a more difficult time to win a match through forward power alone. Yet they came extremely close to drawing the game against arguably the finest defensive coach in the game in Shaun Edwards. If entertainment value is the cost of admission into the league then Scotland, Wales and Italy should all have had periods in recent years when they should be shown the door from the 6N. Plus Georgia scored 55 points in their previous fixture at home to Canada, with some positive play from the backs contributing to the victory, so it's not like they are offensively bereft.

9, 11 & 15 seem to be players with potential and the domestic Georgian league is in it's infancy, so perhaps over time the quality of back player they produce will improve in line with their U20s performance.

Anyway, enough Georgian love. I had a giggle on the US show "Rugby Wrapup" where they showed a quote from Rob Howley following the last Welsh game in Paris where he said, and I paraphrase,

"for the integrity of the sport we must never see anything like that again"