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[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Wales vs. Argentina (12/11/2016)

Alun Wyn jones and Warburton also back which should make a difference. Does anyone think Lydiate deserves a place in the squad at all? We all know his limitations in attack but I don't think he even had a good game in defence, James King was much an improvement when he came on.
 
Alun Wyn jones and Warburton also back which should make a difference. Does anyone think Lydiate deserves a place in the squad at all? We all know his limitations in attack but I don't think he even had a good game in defence, James King was much an improvement when he came on.

hoping we see warb at 6 and tipuric at 7. as warburton has been playing at 6 for the blues. it will be ridiculous if tipuric becomes the fall guy for the breakdown issues on the weekend. he cant do everything himself, have sam at 6 and tips at 7, best of both worlds then
 
hoping we see warb at 6 and tipuric at 7. as warburton has been playing at 6 for the blues. it will be ridiculous if tipuric becomes the fall guy for the breakdown issues on the weekend. he cant do everything himself, have sam at 6 and tips at 7, best of both worlds then

That's what I'm hoping for, a Warbuton, Tipuric and Moriaty backrow does sound good. As I said in the Australia thread I fear that Howley will go for the 'tried and tested again' So Warburton in for Tipuric and Roberts and J Davies in the centre.
 
hoping we see warb at 6 and tipuric at 7. as warburton has been playing at 6 for the blues. it will be ridiculous if tipuric becomes the fall guy for the breakdown issues on the weekend. he cant do everything himself, have sam at 6 and tips at 7, best of both worlds then

Yeah, Tips has to stay at 7 and I think Warbs would provide some much-needed intensity at 6. Moriarty should keep his place as he was probably the best Welsh player v Aus.

Lydiate seemed as out of sorts as anyone - he seems to have been below par for a while now, and teams worked out his chop-tackling a while ago. I think it was v England in the 2016 6N where their players were letting him dive at their feet whilst just standing back, making him look silly. Hope he recovers his best form, I do like him a lot.

Liam W is needed at fullback, offers more attacking options - Halfpenny is generally more defensive. Also, I found it a little surprising that 1/2p was straight back on kicking duties, particularly when Biggar seemed to be doing just fine?

Last question: maybe I'm completely missing something, but if we are going to try something different at Centre, would it not be worth trying Jon Davies at 12 and Scott Williams at 13? Davies is a good kicker (and often seems to these days) whilst Williams is a great runner/finisher. No....?
 
Last question: maybe I'm completely missing something, but if we are going to try something different at Centre, would it not be worth trying Jon Davies at 12 and Scott Williams at 13? Davies is a good kicker (and often seems to these days) whilst Williams is a great runner/finisher. No....?

Scott Williams' distribution game is far better than Davies', which imo should be top priority for an international 12. Williams' is liable to the odd shocker in that department too though! Personally, I'd like to see Owen Williams in the squad and tested at 12. He plays a lot of rugby at 12 for Tigers, and is in the 2nd five eighth mould, i.e. a 10 who's physical enough to cut it at centre. That would allow one of Scott Williams, JD2 or someone else like Cory Allen or even George North some space at 13.

As far as Saturday is concerned, I don't think Howley will make many changes. AWJ, Warbs and Gareth Davies will likely come back in, as will Liam Williams if fit (probably in the wrong position one the wing though!). I'd personally make more changes. This is the 23 I'd go with:

01 Nicky Smith. Jenkins was poor on Sat, and we need more carriers in the front 5. Smith has quick feet which allows him to consistently beat the first man and get over the gainline.
02 Scott Baldwin. Had a positive impact on Sat. Thought Ken Owens was found wanting physically against the Wallabies.
03 Samson Lee. No-one else really. We need to find a tighthead who offers something in the loose. Dillon Lewis at the Blues springs to mind.
04 Luke Charteris. Thought both starting locks were very poor v Aus, but unless we try the likes of Hill or Thornton, options are a little thin on the ground.
05 Alun-Wyn Jones. Simply has to come back in if available. Missed him hugely, which in itself is a little worrying.
06 Sam Warburton. Lydiate was poor once again. Warbs is more dynamic, with a good blend of pace and power, who should help protect our ruck ball, and put pressure on the oppositions'
07 Justin Tipuric. Struggled a little physically maybe, but he was by far our most threatening player ball in hand. Only player who could match the Aussies skill level.
08 Ross Moriarty. Not convinced that he's an 8, certainly more at home on the blindside, but needs must atm.

09 Gareth Davies. Shame that Webb is out yet again, but Davies is a good back-up to have.
10 Sam Davies. Will have learnt from the mistakes he made v Aus. Still looked far more potent in attack than Biggar.
11 Keelan Giles. Very hypocritical of me I know, but f**k it....
12 Scott Williams. Best option atm.
13 Jon Davies. Missed his spot blitz v Aus.
14 George North. Poor v Aus, but is one of our best players if we can get him into the game.
15 Liam Williams. Our best fullback, attacking wise.
 
Half penny kicking against a penalty prone Pumas could be a more decisive factor than a attacking 15.
 
Amos injured so Keelen Giles is called up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37909616

I imagine this guarantees the back line of L Williams, Halfpenny and North for the game then. I'm not sure if Howley will be brave enough to put Giles on the bench though.

doesnt have much of an option, its only cuthbert that can be benched instead. if liam williams is not fit and Amos definitely out then we'll have Halfpenny North and Cuthbert, with Giles on the bench. as there would be nobody left to cover wings otherwise
 
Scott Williams' distribution game is far better than Davies', which imo should be top priority for an international 12. Williams' is liable to the odd shocker in that department too though! Personally, I'd like to see Owen Williams in the squad and tested at 12. He plays a lot of rugby at 12 for Tigers, and is in the 2nd five eighth mould, i.e. a 10 who's physical enough to cut it at centre. That would allow one of Scott Williams, JD2 or someone else like Cory Allen or even George North some space at 13.

As far as Saturday is concerned, I don't think Howley will make many changes. AWJ, Warbs and Gareth Davies will likely come back in, as will Liam Williams if fit (probably in the wrong position one the wing though!). I'd personally make more changes. This is the 23 I'd go with:

01 Nicky Smith. Jenkins was poor on Sat, and we need more carriers in the front 5. Smith has quick feet which allows him to consistently beat the first man and get over the gainline.
02 Scott Baldwin. Had a positive impact on Sat. Thought Ken Owens was found wanting physically against the Wallabies.
03 Samson Lee. No-one else really. We need to find a tighthead who offers something in the loose. Dillon Lewis at the Blues springs to mind.
04 Luke Charteris. Thought both starting locks were very poor v Aus, but unless we try the likes of Hill or Thornton, options are a little thin on the ground.
05 Alun-Wyn Jones. Simply has to come back in if available. Missed him hugely, which in itself is a little worrying.
06 Sam Warburton. Lydiate was poor once again. Warbs is more dynamic, with a good blend of pace and power, who should help protect our ruck ball, and put pressure on the oppositions'
07 Justin Tipuric. Struggled a little physically maybe, but he was by far our most threatening player ball in hand. Only player who could match the Aussies skill level.
08 Ross Moriarty. Not convinced that he's an 8, certainly more at home on the blindside, but needs must atm.

09 Gareth Davies. Shame that Webb is out yet again, but Davies is a good back-up to have.
10 Sam Davies. Will have learnt from the mistakes he made v Aus. Still looked far more potent in attack than Biggar.
11 Keelan Giles. Very hypocritical of me I know, but f**k it....
12 Scott Williams. Best option atm.
13 Jon Davies. Missed his spot blitz v Aus.
14 George North. Poor v Aus, but is one of our best players if we can get him into the game.
15 Liam Williams. Our best fullback, attacking wise.

I agree with most of your choices but would put Cory Hill in place of Inspector Gadget and 1/2penny instead of North

- - - Updated - - -

Amos injured so Keelen Giles is called up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37909616

I imagine this guarantees the back line of L Williams, Halfpenny and North for the game then. I'm not sure if Howley will be brave enough to put Giles on the bench though.

He won't be will he.
 
I agree with most of your choices but would put Cory Hill in place of Inspector Gadget and 1/2penny instead of North

- - - Updated - - -



He won't be will he.

Williams has declared himself fit so we should have the back 3 you said. im assuming Cuthbert will be the bench cover.
 
Williams has declared himself fit so we should have the back 3 you said. im assuming Cuthbert will be the bench cover.

I have a strange feeling the nearer we get to selection that Giles will play a part, it may be the only way Howley keeps his job
 
I have a strange feeling the nearer we get to selection that Giles will play a part, it may be the only way Howley keeps his job

na i cant see it happening. it will be exactly the same time apart from the returning injured players, so AWJ in for Davies, JD in for scott williams, warburton in for tipuric (although hopefully he replaces lydiate instead). Liam williams in place of Cuthbert. if he makes some actual changes at all then i'll be happy.
 
15. Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) (63 Caps) 14. George North (Northampton Saints) (63 Caps) 13. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (56 Caps) 12. Scott Williams (Scarlets) (39 Caps) 11. Liam Williams (Scarlets) (35 Caps) 10. Dan Biggar (Ospreys) (49 Caps) 9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (18 Caps) 1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues) (127 Caps) (CAPTAIN) 2. Ken Owens (Scarlets) (43 Caps) 3. Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (15 Caps) 4. Luke Charteris (Bath Rugby) (69 Caps) 5. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (102 Caps) 6. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues) (67 Caps) 7. Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (44 Caps) 8. Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) (10 Caps)

REPLACEMENTS:

16. Scott Baldwin (Ospreys) (24 Caps) 17. Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (4 Caps) 18. Samson Lee (Scarlets) (27 Caps) 19. Cory Hill (Newport Gwent Dragons) (1 Cap) 20. James King (Ospreys) (9 Caps) 21. Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) (27 Caps) 22. Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues) (8 Cap) 23. Jamie Roberts (Harlequins) (84 Caps)

Sam Davies completely dropped. totally not fair on the lad
 
Can't believe Sam Davies has been dropped completely! He made a couple of errors but we were already getting annihilated - there's no doubt our attacking game improved greatly when he took the field. Pleased that Anscombe gets a shot on the bench as well but really he should be backing up Davies, not Biggar. Otherwise this seems a good squad, glad Jamie Roberts has been benched at last - he's got a lot of potential as an impact sub and it'll be interesting to see what happens when he comes on at full steam against tired legs. He's got to up his intensity though to make the most of that.
 
Can't believe Sam Davies has been dropped completely! He made a couple of errors but we were already getting annihilated - there's no doubt our attacking game improved greatly when he took the field. Pleased that Anscombe gets a shot on the bench as well but really he should be backing up Davies, not Biggar. Otherwise this seems a good squad, glad Jamie Roberts has been benched at last - he's got a lot of potential as an impact sub and it'll be interesting to see what happens when he comes on at full steam against tired legs. He's got to up his intensity though to make the most of that.

lee not starting seems a little harsh too, no prop could have made tackles on the australian backs. they just identified the mismatch well. although the whole replacement front row performed much better against AUS. i would have started Smith too
 
15. Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) (63 Caps) 14. George North (Northampton Saints) (63 Caps) 13. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (56 Caps) 12. Scott Williams (Scarlets) (39 Caps) 11. Liam Williams (Scarlets) (35 Caps) 10. Dan Biggar (Ospreys) (49 Caps) 9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (18 Caps) 1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues) (127 Caps) (CAPTAIN) 2. Ken Owens (Scarlets) (43 Caps) 3. Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (15 Caps) 4. Luke Charteris (Bath Rugby) (69 Caps) 5. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (102 Caps) 6. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues) (67 Caps) 7. Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (44 Caps) 8. Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) (10 Caps)

REPLACEMENTS:

16. Scott Baldwin (Ospreys) (24 Caps) 17. Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (4 Caps) 18. Samson Lee (Scarlets) (27 Caps) 19. Cory Hill (Newport Gwent Dragons) (1 Cap) 20. James King (Ospreys) (9 Caps) 21. Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) (27 Caps) 22. Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues) (8 Cap) 23. Jamie Roberts (Harlequins) (84 Caps)

Sam Davies completely dropped. totally not fair on the lad

It's harsh on Sam Davies but, in terms of the other dropped players, maybe it's a useful message to send - one bad game and you might face the chop, esp. if the competition is there. Lydiate and Cuthbert are probably two good examples of players who, when on form, are great to have, but at the moment things aren't working out. Maybe harsh on Roberts too but maybe the time has come to give the SW/JD2 combo a really good go.
 
It's harsh on Sam Davies but, in terms of the other dropped players, maybe it's a useful message to send - one bad game and you might face the chop, esp. if the competition is there. Lydiate and Cuthbert are probably two good examples of players who, when on form, are great to have, but at the moment things aren't working out. Maybe harsh on Roberts too but maybe the time has come to give the SW/JD2 combo a really good go.

That only works if you apply it to all the players though, and Biggar has been struggling for form with Wales for some time. North was arguably worse than Cuthbert, too. I think Roberts is quite fortunate though - he still has a chance as an impact sub which is potentially the key to keeping his place in the 23. If he doesn't make an impact though I'd bring in someone like Cory Allen, Ashley Beck or Ben John. Agreed on the SW/JD2 partnership though - really hope they have a good game!
 
Hopefully Liam williams will interchange with halfpenny during the game as and when required, that could be deadly
 
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