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[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Italy vs. South Africa (19/11/2016)

Hey Bruce,
sorry for my English, I'm studying.
My favourite players are Venditti, Canna and Bronzini.
What team do you prefere Between Edimburgh and Glasgow Warriors?
Have you ever been to Treviso to see Pro12?
 
Can't see South Africa losing. They are in a bad way but not Italy bad. In 2016 Italy had more points scored against them than the next 2 worst teams combined (which is why I think the 6N needs to be restructured, it isn't benefitting anyone this way). 2015 it was a game of who can score the most against Italy to pad out the points difference, same in 2014 actually with England tearing them to pieces trying to make up the points difference with Ireland. If nothing else South Africa can win playing a simple power game.
 
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Ospervat said:
I will be watching and I will be supporting Italy. As an ex-Bok supporter I would prefer to see the Boks finish this season with the worst possible record ever in their 125 year history and drop to their lowest ranking ever. I cannot in good conscience continue to support the national team of a country and organisation (SARU) that so openly and unashamedly promotes racial discrimination throughout every level of its hierarchy in terms of appointment and selection policies.

Hopefully when they hit rock bottom that will be the jolt of reality needed to finally turn things around and appoint the right people for the job.

When equality is restored then my support will return.
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Not to be mean or anything, but what nationality are you really? Seems like you are the definition of what we call in Afrikaans a "Draadsitter".

It's times like these when we see who the real fans are and who will support their team through thick and thin.
 
I have dual nationality.
SA & UK
I am SA first.
I know exactly what a draadsitter is and I can assure you I am definitely not the fair weather type. If my decision was based purely on the teams performance I would agree with the term however .... This is a matter of principle. Nothing more and nothing less.

It's a protest decision. I know in my heart it will have no influence on what is going on in SA rugby but as I said before I can no longer support a body that openly promotes discrimination at every level of its operations in pursuit of some ill planned ideology. The harm that is being done to SA Rugby by this relentless activity is unforgivable.
 
TRF_heineken said:
Not to be mean or anything, but what nationality are you really? Seems like you are the definition of what we call in Afrikaans a "Draadsitter".

It's times like these when we see who the real fans are and who will support their team through thick and thin.
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AC is making it very difficult to have any sort of confidence in him and those around him though. TBF the damage was done a long time before he took over but we've seen ourselves falling ever more behind and instead of looking to do all we can we seem hell bent on making it ever more difficult for ourselves. I'll call on results as a yardstick; first ever losses to Japan, Argentina, Argentina at home and then Ireland at home. More recently a record loss to NZ and last week first loss to England in a decade and even though that in itself isn't mind boggling its the ease with which England dealt with us (also with a brand new coach, new crop of players and a load of injuries) that is troubling. Even more troubling is the noises coming out of the camp and the fact that no-one i any position of influence seems overly worried at trying to address the issue or are our current crop of players just that far removed from previous generations? I don't know, might be. Or it might be that we have appointed a back line coach with 1 year of coaching experience at the all-conquering Kings just as an example.

Just very frustrating.
 
I can't see even a poor SA side losing to Italy at the moment, even that team should have enough quality to win it.
 
I don't think the players selected are that poor, or that there are such a massive gap in talent as with previous generations. In fact, I think the current crop is more talented that the past players. They are definitely more well rounded players than the past players who were good at one thing.

But I think this week's article about PSDT summed it up the best. He was heavily criticized about his defensive frailties against England, and everyone pointed out that he didn't know what to do, where to stand and so on. Had he recieved better coaching on the defensive structure, he would have killed Youngs at the ruck instead of giving England a soft try.

Johan van Graan is touted as one of the best forwards coaches in the game (not just in SA), but Matthew Proudfoot is our forwards coach, while Van Graan is technical advisor. We all know what's going on in the Backline coaching department, so there is no need to talk about it again.

AC and his original coaching team is the current problem. Our players are running around like chickens without heads. Their talent can only take them that far, and without guidance it will be a sinking ship.

Then we hear reports about the training sessions that are a shambles, and that it's way more laid back than in the past. Again, this is a matter where the coaches are inadequate.
 
TRF_heineken said:
I don't think the players selected are that poor, or that there are such a massive gap in talent as with previous generations. In fact, I think the current crop is more talented that the past players. They are definitely more well rounded players than the past players who were good at one thing.
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Hear hear!

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/it-should-be-fringe-boks-taking-on-italy-20161118

"Cape Town - This weekend's clash against Italy should, ideally, have been an opportunity for the Springboks to get a look at some of their fringe players"

I agree with this. This year has been a disaster, but if we had blooded in a couple of youngsters, that might have provided the faintest of silver linings.

I will support the boks through thick and thin, as I did when we were rubbish around 2002-2004. Even if we win the next two games, unless the performances are something of a revelation, I think Coetzee will have to consider his position (though I doubt he will).
 
I had DSTV basically just for the rugby and cricket. Changed it to the family option from this month, no rugby anymore. Enough is enough. So I don't have the option to watch the rugby on Saturday. Luckily I have a league angling match on anyways.
 
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TRF_heineken said:
But I think this week's article about PSDT summed it up the best. He was heavily criticized about his defensive frailties against England, and everyone pointed out that he didn't know what to do, where to stand and so on. Had he recieved better coaching on the defensive structure, he would have killed Youngs at the ruck instead of giving England a soft try.
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I think you're letting him off lightly there. Marking the fringe if a ruck is a basic skill, it's not an especially complicated one in and of itself and no international coach should expect players in any position to arrive at his training camp unsure on those basics.

On the other hand - without going back to check I don't know, but it might well be that he did not have adequate cover outside him so felt he needed to try to cover the pass, hence buying the dummy. Problems in the defensive line as a whole like that you could certainly put down to inadequate coaching at a team level.
 
max tirindelli said:
Hey Bruce,
sorry for my English, I'm studying.
My favourite players are Venditti, Canna and Bronzini.
What team do you prefere Between Edimburgh and Glasgow Warriors?
Have you ever been to Treviso to see Pro12?
Click to expand...

So you would pick Bronzini ahead of Gori too (like O'Shea)? I like Gori myself.

I'm nearer Edinburgh, so I guess they are my local team. Thankfully they've got rid of a very dull coach two months ago, so they are easier to support now and are showing signs of making a big improvement (to my surprise). Although, of the Pro12 sides I prefer Zebre and took pleasure in them finishing ahead of Treviso in the league last year. Sorry! :D

I have family from nearer Milano so they are the more "local" team than Treviso.
 
Every Time Ref said:
I think you're letting him off lightly there. Marking the fringe if a ruck is a basic skill, it's not an especially complicated one in and of itself and no international coach should expect players in any position to arrive at his training camp unsure on those basics.

On the other hand - without going back to check I don't know, but it might well be that he did not have adequate cover outside him so felt he needed to try to cover the pass, hence buying the dummy. Problems in the defensive line as a whole like that you could certainly put down to inadequate coaching at a team level.
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Having gone back and looked at the two Youngs dummy incidents on these highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC0h1Wqa_dw

First one starting at 6:59 - didn't notice at the time but Vunipola almost does it the phase before, dummies and goes through (although with a little help from Lawes arguably blocking the first defender)

On PSDT - he is stood far too wide - if you pause at 7:30 it shows clearly, any one of 4 English players could easily have gone straight through that 10m hole, PSDT should have been in tighter. However he was left exposed by lack of support - but still a basic error on his part I feel.

Second incident (at 9:28) - he was perfectly well positioned, not particularly quick ball and with men outside covering Young's pass, he is entirely at fault there, a failure of basic skills

One other thing I noticed rewatching, on the subject of team structure (rather than individual) errors - England's first try worked off the back of the lineout (at 1:44 - the replay from 2:07 shows it most clearly). There is a tighthead prop standing at the back of the SA line, when the ball goes he can't get out to Vunipola quick enough, the 6 has to take Billy, 10 has to bite in on and so on outwards, causing the space out wide. (Venter's positioning wasn't good either). A flanker or someone reasonably quick defending on the back of the line prevents a try there - basic stuff from a coaching perspective, definitely something you can blame the coaches for IMO.
 
Ugo Gori is an excellence player, but now for physical problems a couple of years, At the moment He has lost speed and vision of the game.
Surely Gori is technically better than Bronzini, but now I prefer him.
I don't know O'Shea very well, but because I like working a lot with the coaches of Benetton and Zebre.
Zebre at this moment they play best of Benetton..... at the moment!!!!!:mad:
The important thing is that on Saturday Italy plays well with springboks!:D
 

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