North Island vs South island

[Umaga's Witness]

Edit:
[start of edit]
now they have decided on the criteria, I thought it would be good to list the pool of players, available to each side, up front for easy reference-

LH

south
Moody
Hodgman
d lienert-brown
Allan
bower
de groot

north
Tuinukuafe
Moli
johnstone
ross
lindenmuth
i. tuungafasi
armstrong
t. mafileo
numia
rakete-stones

HK

south
Taylor
Coltman
McAlister
jackson

north
Coles
Aumua
Slater
Dixon
Parsons
riccitelli
eklund
taukei'aho
tolai

TH

south
Laulala
tokalahi
lomax
jager
bower

north
Tu'ungafasi
Taavao
o'neill
s. mafileo
thwaites
iosefa-scott
fidow
renata

Lock

south
Romano
Whitelock
S barrett
parkinson
selby-rickit
dickson
dunshea
strange
allardice

north
Retallick
Tuipolotu
Blackwell
whetton
ah kuoi
vaa'i
josh goodhue
cowley-tuioti
walker-leaware
brown
fifita
scrafton

Loose forward

south
lentjes
Evans.
Frizell.
Prinsep.
Hunt.
mcdowell
blackadder
christie
grace
harmon
sanders

north
Savea.
Cane.
Jacobson.
Boshier.
Papalii.
Sotutu.
Mikaele tuu.
Du plessis kirifi.
A ione.
gibson

Halfback

south
Christie
Weber.
Drummond.
enari

north
Smith.
Perenara.
Tahuriorangi.
Hall.
booth

First five
south
Mo'unga.
j ione
cameron
smith

north
B Barret
garden-bachop
trask
black
m hunt
perofeta
plummer

Midfield
south
Goodhue.
Thompson.
nankivell
ennor

north
Lienert-Brown
Laumape
R Ione
faiane
aso
b proctor
p umaga-jensen
manu
tupaea

Outside backs
south
J Barrett
Havili
Bridge.
faingaanuku
jordan
nareki
koroi

north
Mckenzie.
Clarke.
Reece.
alaimalo
stevenson
wainui
telea
nanai-seturo
lowe

[end of edit]

They are talking about reviving this fixture. I've had a go at starting 15s on the assumption that first criteria is place of birth, after each island has made their first choice based on this criteria they can replace that choice by a different player based on where they played their first provincial game, without being able to steal a layer already chosen for the other island.

North

Tuinukuafe
Coles
Tuungafasi
Whitelock
Barrett
Jacobson
Cane
Savea
Smith
Barrett
Bridge
Laumape
Goodhue
Reece
Barrett

South

Moody
Taylor
Laulala
Retallick
Tuipolotu
Frizell
Christie
Evans
Weber
Mounga
Jordan
Lienert brown
Thompson
Havili
Mckenzie

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Perhaps a better criteria, though not one that suits me trying to imagine the teams, is to which island the player feels greatest allegiance.

In terms of place of birth, the North Island has 4 times the population of the South, so thats hardly fair, and some degree of equality in teams will surely be nz rugby's goal. In that sense the South Island shouldn't just get leftovers. On the other hand, place of birth is the easiest mechanism to understand which islands culture nurtured the players most.

From an nzr point of view, if going for a North vs South game that meets the desires of fans and players for the reepresentation to be meaningful, but which suits nzrs objective of getting the best players on the park, they would ideally start with the best 46 players, then see how they can distribute them into the two teams in a way that best fit some sort of representation of the islands. If they couldn't find any way to fill a position in a certain team with one of those players, as none of the candidates met any reasonable eligibility criteria, only then would they look outside the 46. Or perhaps they would look at the best 30, allocate the starting 15s, then move on to the reserves. That would weaken the representativeness of the teams though.

So I can keep playing this game, I will try using the method of finding the top 46 players, see who is eligible for each team based on them needing one of birth place, high school, University, and first provincial team as criteria. I have listed their eligibility according to each of those criteria, in that order, after their names, below.

only when we can't fit the tip 46 into the two teams, will I look for more players, finding the next best in a given position until an eligible player is found.

LH
Moody. South, South, South, south
Tuinukuafe. North, North, n/a, north
Moli. North, south, north, north
Johnstone. North, North, n/a, north

HK
Coles. North, North, n/a, North
Taylor. North, north, n/a, south
Coltman. North, North, south, south
Aumua. North, North, n/a, north

TH
Laulala. N/a, North, n/a, south
Tuungafasi, n/a, north, n/a, north
Taavao. North, North, n/a, north
tokalahi. N/a, north/south, n/a, south

Lock
Retallick. South, South, n/a, north
Whitelock. North, North, South, south
S barrett. North, North, South, south
Tuipolotu. South, North, n/a, north
Romano. South, South, n/a, south
Fifita. N/a, North, n/a, north

Loose forward
Savea. North, North, n/a, north
Cane. North, North, n/a, north
Jacobson. North, North, n/a, north
Boshier. North, North, n/a, north
Papalii. North, North, n/a, north
Sotutu. North, North, n/a, north
Evans. North, North, South, south
Frizell. N/a, n/a, n/a, south

So the south still needs two more loose forwards, so I'll keep lisitng the top players until we get there.

Du plessis kirifi. North, North, n/a, north
A ione. N/a, North, North, north
Prinsep. South, South, South, south
Christie. South, South, n/a, south.

Got there. Those last two on the list were tough, with Robinson, Grace, karpik, Gibson, hunt, and Douglas all contenders.

Halfback
Smith. North, North, n/a, north
Weber. North, North, South, south
Perenara. North, North, n/a, north
Tahuriorangi. North, North, n/a, North
We still have to keep looking...
Hall. North, North, n/a, north
Drummond. South, south, n/a, south

First five
B Barret. North, North, n/a, north
Mo'unga. South, south, south, south

Midfield
Lienert-Brown. South, south, n/a, south
Goodhue. North, North, south, south
Laumape. North, North, n/a, north
Thompson. North, North, n/a, south

Outside backs
J Barrett. North, North, n/a, south
Mckenzine. South, South, n/a, north
Haveili. South, North/South, n/a, South
Alaimalo. North, south, n/a, North
Reece. N/a, north, n/a, North
Bridge. North, North, n/a, South

Back Reserves
Ennor. North, North, South, south
R ione. North, North, North, north
Milne skudder. North, North, North, north
Aso. North, North, n/a, north
Keeping looking...
J ione. North, North, South, south

The selection method, when there are multiple players with dual eligibility, is to go from left to right on the eligibility criteria to pick the most applicable island, I.e implicitly assuming birth origin is a greater indicator of which island best represents the player, followed by high school, university, then first province they played for.

the teams then:

NORTH
Tuinukuafe. Johnstone
Coles. Aumua
Tuungafasi. Taavao
Whitelock
S barett. fifita
Jacobson
Cane
Savea. Boshier
Smith. Perenara
B barrett
Bridge
Laumape
Thompson. R ione
Reece
J Barrett. Milne skudder

SOUTH
Moody. Moli
Taylor. Coltman
Laulala. Tokalahi
Retallick
tuipolotu. Romano
Frizell
Prinsep
Evans. Christie
Weber. Drummond
Mounga. J ione
Alaimalo. Ennor
Lienert brown
Goodhue
Havili
Mckenzie

in terms of coaches, it would be good to split the all blacks coaches, with eligibility required for the island they coach. But we wouldn't quite have coverage across forwards backs and defence in the south. So I propose bringing in Hansen.

north coaches
Foster
Plumtree
McLeod

south coaches
Mooar
Feek
Hansen

 

[The Seeker]

I've never been to New Zealand, but I hope to make it there someday. I've heard the South Island is more beautiful landscape wise. But when it comes to rugby, I'm guessing the North Island has better players since more people live there. When you have more talent to choose from you usually have a better team, barring the occasional upset.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I've never been to New Zealand, but I hope to make it there someday. I've heard the South Island is more beautiful landscape wise. But when it comes to rugby, I'm guessing the North Island has better players since more people live there. When you have more talent to choose from you usually have a better team, barring the occasional upset.

Absolutely, and the birth rate in recent times is much greater in the north island, definitely 20-30 years ago when the current players were born the birth rates were easily 4 times as high in the north compared to the south. When I look at who I picked for the top 46 players, 9 were born in the South Island, 21 in the north, and 6 overseas (interestingly, 3 of these are tight head props). So the South Island look to be doing better than their population would suggest (though I'm sure it's not statistically significant).

I would say the South Island is more beautiful, but there are some awesome thermal beauties and lakes in the middle of the north island, rugged rain forests and beautiful beaches on the coromandel peninsula, and some beautiful beaches and warm climate in the far north. Wellington is by far the prettiest city, Auckland isn't too bad and has loads of Asian restaurants. There is not a single other city or town worth visiting.

 

[The Seeker]

Absolutely, and the birth rate in recent times is much greater in the north island, definitely 20-30 years ago when the current players were born the birth rates were easily 4 times as high in the north compared to the south. When I look at who I picked for the top 46 players, 9 were born in the South Island, 21 in the north, and 6 overseas (interestingly, 3 of these are tight head props). So the South Island look to be doing better than their population would suggest (though I'm sure it's not statistically significant).

I would say the South Island is more beautiful, but there are some awesome thermal beauties and lakes in the middle of the north island, rugged rain forests and beautiful beaches on the coromandel peninsula, and some beautiful beaches and warm climate in the far north. Wellington is by far the prettiest city, Auckland isn't too bad and has loads of Asian restaurants. There is not a single other city or town worth visiting.

Thanks for the player information and the tourist highlights. I'll make it down there someday.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I've never been to New Zealand, but I hope to make it there someday. I've heard the South Island is more beautiful landscape wise. But when it comes to rugby, I'm guessing the North Island has better players since more people live there. When you have more talent to choose from you usually have a better team, barring the occasional upset.

look, im from the south and so have a natural affinity.....but i dont think we can say one is better than the other

if you keep in mind the far north is a "Sub-Tropical" climate and the far south is "Sub-Antartic"...its just different, i live in Aus now and when ever someone asks what they should do when visiting i say try and drive from top to bottom over a couple of weeks. you'll go through / see

tropical rain forests
Volcanic fields
Thermal pools
High volcanic plateau
verdant farmland
on a ferry
Island Sounds
great Mountain ranges
high country tussock
glaciers / cirques / perfect glacial valleys
fjords (like scandenavia)
windswept sub-antarctic coastlines

....its a hell of a drive and that just the scenery

I would say the South Island is more beautiful, but there are some awesome thermal beauties and lakes in the middle of the north island, rugged rain forests and beautiful beaches on the coromandel peninsula, and some beautiful beaches and warm climate in the far north. Wellington is by far the prettiest city, Auckland isn't too bad and has loads of Asian restaurants. There is not a single other city or town worth visiting.

seriously? you'll recommend Auckland and wellington and nowhere else is worth visiting? most Aucklanders i know dont like Auckland as a city....a soulless CBD and then endless suburbs...if you're looking for good asian restaurants i'd travel through asia

 

[Kiwiwomble]

back on topic for a second...north south games are just difficult simply because so many ore players start in the north...so its only at super level it starts to even out...but then you'd just end up with the crusaders + aaron smith playing for the south

i like the idea of a probables v possibles or even just a two coaches named and they pick teams one at a time

 

[The Seeker]

look, im from the south and so have a natural affinity.....but i dont think we can say one is better than the other

if you keep in mind the far north is a "Sub-Tropical" climate and the far south is "Sub-Antartic"...its just different, i live in Aus now and when ever someone asks what they should do when visiting i say try and drive from top to bottom over a couple of weeks. you'll go through / see

tropical rain forests
Volcanic fields
Thermal pools
High volcanic plateau
verdant farmland
on a ferry
Island Sounds
great Mountain ranges
high country tussock
glaciers / cirques / perfect glacial valleys
fjords (like scandenavia)
windswept sub-antarctic coastlines

....its a hell of a drive and that just the scenery



seriously? you'll recommend Auckland and wellington and nowhere else is worth visiting? most Aucklanders i know dont like Auckland as a city....a soulless CBD and then endless suburbs...if you're looking for good asian restaurants i'd travel through asia

I think a little rivalry is a good thing. We have it here in California as well, the southern part of the state (where I live) vs the northern part of the state (where I went to college). It's all one state, but there's a lot of differences between the north and the south in landscape and attitudes here as well. When I do make it to New Zealand I'm going to visit both islands and see as much as I can while I'm there. When I travel I don't sit around a pool or lay on the beach all day. I get out and about it.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

look, im from the south and so have a natural affinity.....but i dont think we can say one is better than the other

if you keep in mind the far north is a "Sub-Tropical" climate and the far south is "Sub-Antartic"...its just different, i live in Aus now and when ever someone asks what they should do when visiting i say try and drive from top to bottom over a couple of weeks. you'll go through / see

tropical rain forests
Volcanic fields
Thermal pools
High volcanic plateau
verdant farmland
on a ferry
Island Sounds
great Mountain ranges
high country tussock
glaciers / cirques / perfect glacial valleys
fjords (like scandenavia)
windswept sub-antarctic coastlines

....its a hell of a drive and that just the scenery



seriously? you'll recommend Auckland and wellington and nowhere else is worth visiting? most Aucklanders i know dont like Auckland as a city....a soulless CBD and then endless suburbs...if you're looking for good asian restaurants i'd travel through asia

Main point being the towns and cities are not worth visiting, it's the nature you want to see. Auckland is ok, it has gotten better, It was more if you can't handle the constant nature and need to stop somewhere to eat, Auckland isn't bad. Wellington is the only town or city worth visiting really, and probably most are worth actively avoiding. I have just had to give advice to people before and they are quite resistant to me telling them not to bother going to towns/cities. They're like "where should I go", and I'm like "there's this really cool mountain", they look at me Funny and say "a mountain?", I say "yeah, it's like a really big lump of dirt", they're like "does that mean I'll get dirty?", I'm like "yeah but it's really beautiful", they're like "oh ok, so there's some cool buildings?", I'm like "it's a mountain", they're like "what's the food like?", I'm like "just go to Auckland".

and back to topic, looking at who plays for which super rugby team is fairly meaningless, as players just go wherever, It's not really a regional thing at all. The interest in a north south game would have to come from some regional representation. And yeah maybe there are better options than north vs south but mark robinson has said quite recently (this month some time) that a north South game is very likely to happen.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Absolutely, and the birth rate in recent times is much greater in the north island, definitely 20-30 years ago when the current players were born the birth rates were easily 4 times as high in the north compared to the south. When I look at who I picked for the top 46 players, 9 were born in the South Island, 21 in the north, and 6 overseas (interestingly, 3 of these are tight head props). So the South Island look to be doing better than their population would suggest (though I'm sure it's not statistically significant).

I would say the South Island is more beautiful, but there are some awesome thermal beauties and lakes in the middle of the north island, rugged rain forests and beautiful beaches on the coromandel peninsula, and some beautiful beaches and warm climate in the far north. Wellington is by far the prettiest city, Auckland isn't too bad and has loads of Asian restaurants. There is not a single other city or town worth visiting.

Main point being the towns and cities are not worth visiting, it's the nature you want to see. Auckland is ok, it has gotten better, It was more if you can't handle the constant nature and need to stop somewhere to eat, Auckland isn't bad. Wellington is the only town or city worth visiting really, and probably most are worth actively avoiding.

actively avoiding? thats just weird, there are lots of nice little towns filled with lovely people

chch - antartic centre, gondola, earthquake memorial
rotatua - thermal hotsprings
queenstown - skiing, earnslaw up the lake, jetboats
Dunedin - speights brewery, rugby at the Fo Bar stadium
tekapo - just a beautiful little spot

thats just off the top of my head

what kind of bad experiences have you had in NZ cities?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

actively avoiding? thats just weird, there are lots of nice little towns filled with lovely people

chch - antartic centre, gondola, earthquake memorial
rotatua - thermal hotsprings
queenstown - skiing, earnslaw up the lake, jetboats
Dunedin - speights brewery, rugby at the Fo Bar stadium
tekapo - just a beautiful little spot

thats just off the top of my head

what kind of bad experiences have you had in NZ cities?

I actively dislike Queenstown, but would recommend going to the area and averting your view from the town. The mountains and lakes and activities are nice, but you aren't really going for the town, the town itself just reeks of rich excess and greed.

tekapo has a bit of that too, but mostly has a different feel. But is a nice town, I'll give you that one. Dunedin, haha, good one. It's not horrible, but I wouldn't make a deliberate trip out of it. Speights, no, haha.

Rotorua, no it's a crummy place, the surrounding areas are very good but the town itself, no way.

Christchurch was okish prior to the earthquakes.

I would actively avoid pretty much all towns that you don't have to pass through on your way to other sites. They're either a bit grotty or they go the other way like Taupo or Queenstown, and tend not to have many city/town activities of any significance.

actually I kinda like Picton, except one of the people was a bit bigoted

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I actively dislike Queenstown, but would recommend going to the area and averting your view from the town. The mountains and lakes and activities are nice, but you aren't really going for the town, the town itself just reeks of rich excess and greed.

tekapo has a bit of that too, but mostly has a different feel. But is a nice town, I'll give you that one. Dunedin, haha, good one. It's not horrible, but I wouldn't make a deliberate trip out of it. Speights, no, haha.

Rotorua, no it's a crummy place, the surrounding areas are very good but the town itself, no way.

Christchurch was okish prior to the earthquakes.

I would actively avoid pretty much all towns that you don't have to pass through on your way to other sites. They're either a bit grotty or they go the other way like Taupo or Queenstown, and tend not to have many city/town activities of any significance.

actually I kinda like Picton, except one of the people was a bit bigoted

you have to admit this all says more about you than anything, you are by far in the minority with lots of those opinions, just a bit sad really you can dislike so mush, i cant remember when i would ever have listed so many things i actively dislike

 

[Umaga's Witness]

you have to admit this all says more about you than anything, you are by far in the minority with lots of those opinions, just a bit sad really you can dislike so mush, i cant remember when i would ever have listed so many things i actively dislike

Come on Dude, I might be a bit sad, but honestly Dunedin is ok, don't get too upset. It's not really a big list of things I dislike? Greed and grottyness, and speights, and bigots. If you ask me it's more sad if you don't dislike bigots and greed. And if you ask anybody in the world that isn't from the Deep South of New Zealand, speights is crap. Grottyness? You were asking why I would recommend actively avoiding towns, it's more about the opportunity cost.

I'm not in the minority at all. people I know who have toured New Zealand don't like the majority of towns here, they're a bit of a downer really. So when you have two routes available it's better to take the one that doesn't go through the towns. and they don't quite get the idea that these are small towns with absolutely nothing to do, not destinations inofthemselves.

It's not like in your highlights tour you listed any towns, at all. It was a pretty good summary really.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

It's not like in your highlights tour you listed any towns, at all. It was a pretty good summary really.

because i was specifically talking about the huge range of climates from one end to the other

 

[The Seeker]

Oops! I didn't mean to start a civil war between the north and the south...islands.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Oops! I didn't mean to start a civil war between the north and the south...islands.

its not that, i love both islands, love how different they are

 

[The Seeker]

its not that, i love both islands, love how different they are

I was just kidding about starting a civil war. New Zealand is at the top of my bucket list, for sure!

 

[OneBlackEye]

https://www.allblacks.com/news/foster-reveals-north-v-south-eligibility/

"We think the best legacy thing for us to do is to pick players on the first province they played for because the choice they made when they played first class rugby for that province was probably the start of their move into the professional game. So we think that's the best criteria," Foster said.

Now we know.

 

[OneBlackEye]

Also, as a Huntly lad, if you're not sending tourists to see the power station you're doing New Zealand a huge disservice.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

https://www.allblacks.com/news/foster-reveals-north-v-south-eligibility/

"We think the best legacy thing for us to do is to pick players on the first province they played for because the choice they made when they played first class rugby for that province was probably the start of their move into the professional game. So we think that's the best criteria," Foster said.

Now we know.

Agh, really don't like that. Criteria that represents the different cultures would have been better, giving it some meaning. The first province you played for just represents where work opportunities are.