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Nonu or Sonny Bill Williams? Or both?

No need for that last sentence bro, everyones entitled to their opinion. The thing is, I know Smith is an awesome defender. I never once said otherwise. The thing is, the way rugby is going now, it's the guys that DO make the highlight reels that are playing the biggest part. As good a player as Smith is, the fact is, Nonu and SBW are better. I'm not talking abouut defense, I'm talking about the tackles broken and metres gained. He's a great player, but he can't gain as many metres as Nonu or SBW, and I feel an attack like Nonu/SBW in midfielf would be formidable

Sorry mate, I just read the last sentence. I forgot I was actually replying to a post. I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't (although I feel like a ******** rereading it). What I meant was that from most of the people who I have talked to about this, they always come from the perspective that he isn't a good enough player, because he isn't as noticable or spectacular on the field, which part of his charm is that he isn't.

The big issue with SBW/Nonu combo is that Sonny Bill Williams loves to do crazy little offloads, which look good and work well when playing outside a player who is good at reading him and has very good core skills (ie Fruean, Guildford and Maitland). The problem with Ma'a Nonu is that he has always had trouble with some of those core skills, and it has been his main criticism. Making him catch some of the tricky passes Sonny Bill Williams does would be cringe worthy when he has only recently improved his handling to catch normal passes.

If you are looking at Line-breaks and running metres, it's a bit tricky considering how little games Conrad Smith has played since injury. With that in mind, I'd imagine he would have made as many metres and line breaks, albeit broken less tackles. The point of a centre though is not just as a one dimensional attacking weapon that some people seem to think. I'd guarentee Nonu/SBW would look pretty unimpressive when being marked by Conrad Smith. It's all good saying a player is a better player because they are more spectacular attackers but World Cups have been won by teams with the best defensive records and it is New Zealand's defense that has made them such a force over the last few years, especially playing in the Northern Hemisphere.

The second part of that is, it is unlikely the All Blacks will get cleanline breaks at will, someone has to set it up, and Nonu isn't the most creative player. Conrad Smith acts as a pivot, drawing in players or sneaking through the holes in the defense.
 
Sorry mate, I just read the last sentence. I forgot I was actually replying to a post. I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't (although I feel like a ******** rereading it). What I meant was that from most of the people who I have talked to about this, they always come from the perspective that he isn't a good enough player, because he isn't as noticable or spectacular on the field, which part of his charm is that he isn't.

The big issue with SBW/Nonu combo is that Sonny Bill Williams loves to do crazy little offloads, which look good and work well when playing outside a player who is good at reading him and has very good core skills (ie Fruean, Guildford and Maitland). The problem with Ma'a Nonu is that he has always had trouble with some of those core skills, and it has been his main criticism. Making him catch some of the tricky passes Sonny Bill Williams does would be cringe worthy when he has only recently improved his handling to catch normal passes.

If you are looking at Line-breaks and running metres, it's a bit tricky considering how little games Conrad Smith has played since injury. With that in mind, I'd imagine he would have made as many metres and line breaks, albeit broken less tackles. The point of a centre though is not just as a one dimensional attacking weapon that some people seem to think. I'd guarentee Nonu/SBW would look pretty unimpressive when being marked by Conrad Smith. It's all good saying a player is a better player because they are more spectacular attackers but World Cups have been won by teams with the best defensive records and it is New Zealand's defense that has made them such a force over the last few years, especially playing in the Northern Hemisphere.

The second part of that is, it is unlikely the All Blacks will get cleanline breaks at will, someone has to set it up, and Nonu isn't the most creative player. Conrad Smith acts as a pivot, drawing in players or sneaking through the holes in the defense.

Judging from your perspective, I think it just boils down to what one thinks will win a team a World Cup. My view is that only in the past has defence won the WC, but rugby has evolved greatly in the last 4 years and I think that attack will win the WC, not defense. The Reds, Blues and the Crusaders have shown us that rugby is now about attacking, not relying on defence.

I get what you mean about Nonu's handling, that's why I'd have him at 12 with SBW at 13, as Jane will probably be wearing 14 for the AB's and he has exceptional handling, so he can nicely gather SBW's offloads.

Smith, like you say, acts as a pivot. He does make line-breaks, but even you'll agree that his main trait is his defensive orginisation and getting the backs moving. I just feel that it would be great to have a mid-field in which both the centres are famous for breaking tackles and scoring/setting up tries. What our whole argument boils down to is what your perspective is on what a centre combo needs, because we seem to agree on the skill oof the 3 mentioned players. I feel you need tackle-breaking, offloading try-scorers and you feel you need one of those and then a guy with a high work-rate and excellent defense. Which is correct remains to be seen, either way you guys are truly blessed with backline talent - it's ridiculous.
 
Hold up....did someone just doubt Conrad Smith?

That's a paddlin'
sigpic4098_21.gif
 
Ag I'm sorry but this whole "you have to choose one" attitude is pure crap. Nonu and SBW are both far better performers then Smith, and Kahui is ridiculously over-rated. I'm not saying move Nonu or SBW to the wing, because that is a major position change.

Based on what exactly? Smith is (quite rightly) regarded by many as the best centre in the world. When the Canes were playing poorly earlier in the season he was one of the few players that performed to a high level in the team that was consistently going backwards (the same cannot be said for Nonu). I rate Nonu very highly, but I can't recall a single season that Nonu has performed better than Conrad Smith.

But if you can play 12 you can play 13, and I think it would be pathetic to have either Nonu or SBW on the bench for the sake of Conrad Smith. Yes, Smith's work-rate is very good, but he doesn't make the same attacking impact as Nonu or SBW who seem to break tackles at will. Smith Should be wearing the 21 or 22 jersey, while Nonu and SBW make up the starting mid-field. It's common sense.

I'm sure SBW and Nonu are capable of playing 13, but neither are world class in that position. Centre is a very different position, with very different attacking and defensive responsibilities; it is by far the most difficult position to defend in the back-line, and it can take players years to develop the instinct they need to be quality defensive 13. Nonu frequently struggled at the top level playing 13; he only really developed in the class player he is today after being shifted into 12, which far better suits his skill-set.

No need for that last sentence bro, everyones entitled to their opinion. The thing is, I know Smith is an awesome defender. I never once said otherwise. The thing is, the way rugby is going now, it's the guys that DO make the highlight reels that are playing the biggest part. As good a player as Smith is, the fact is, Nonu and SBW are better. I'm not talking abouut defense, I'm talking about the tackles broken and metres gained. He's a great player, but he can't gain as many metres as Nonu or SBW, and I feel an attack like Nonu/SBW in midfielf would be formidable

The thing is Conrad Smith breaks the line at least as much as Ma'a Nonu. He doesn't do it by running directly through players, but rather by running with the ball in two hands which creates gaps in the defence which he (or someone else exploits). During last years tri-nations the stats (http://www.thescore.com.au/rugby/) suggest Nonu and Smith each had 5 clean linebreaks, though Nonu had nearly twice as many runs with the ball as Smith. The also made neraly identical numbers of metres per run. Even though Smith doesn't run through people to create linebreaks, it doesn't make his linebreaks any less valuable!
 
Wanna know what I think??.. 12. SBW 13. Conrad 14. Ma'a Nonu. "Problem solved".
 
Wanna know what I think??.. 12. SBW 13. Conrad 14. Ma'a Nonu. "Problem solved".

No, you've just created a problem when there wasn't a problem to start with! Nonu is not a wing; he is too slow, he doesn't have the defensive knowledge to play on the wing (nor the speed to mark quick wings), and I'd suggest that he wouldn't be particularly strong under the high ball (I can't remember him taking many high balls, but I'm sure he doesn't practice it near as much as wings/fullbacks will). If he played on the wing I have no doubt opposition teams would expose him. To me it sounds as good an idea as playing Cullen at centre ;)
 
Agree with you Darwin. Nonu is not a wing!! Wrong time to be putting players out of position. He has been best number 12 in the last few years in NZ. Leave him where he is. Let's not go through the whole nonsense of putting a fullback at center or centers on the wing.
 
No, you've just created a problem when there wasn't a problem to start with! Nonu is not a wing; he is too slow, he doesn't have the defensive knowledge to play on the wing (nor the speed to mark quick wings), and I'd suggest that he wouldn't be particularly strong under the high ball (I can't remember him taking many high balls, but I'm sure he doesn't practice it near as much as wings/fullbacks will). If he played on the wing I have no doubt opposition teams would expose him. To me it sounds as good an idea as playing Cullen at centre ;)

Have you forgot that Nonu was a wing turned centre?.. He grew up playing on the wing and knows the position very well, and I think you underestimate Nonu's speed. Sure you don't see much of it when hes playing at centre because he just doesn't have the space, but when he does make tackle busts and has space to himself, nobody catches up to him.
As for him not having the defensive knowledge to play on the wing, Nonu is a world class player and a wings defensive patterns is not the hardest place to defend. And the way the game is played now it's very very hard to be exposed on defence as all defence lines are quite wide with the quick ruck ball and getting put on the outside is rarely seen, he is a very very very very very safe and sound defender so there is absolutely no problem there and as for the high ball, Hosea Gear is crap under the high ball, with Cory Jane it's 50/50 so I can't see Nonu doing any worse do too bad.

You just think about it, having defenders focussing on SBW and also Nonu, there are going to definitely be holes, and providing Nonu could beat almost anybody one on one, I think it's not a bad idea.
 
Good find Cymro, wow even though I suggested it I never thought the AB's coaches would have thought about. Lol, I wasn't even too keen on it myself just thought I'd throw it out there to add more flavor to the discussion lol.. having Williams on the wing?.. now I wouldn't go that far.
 
Good find Cymro, wow even though I suggested it I never thought the AB's coaches would have thought about. Lol, I wasn't even too keen on it myself just thought I'd throw it out there to add more flavor to the discussion lol.. having Williams on the wing?.. now I wouldn't go that far.

Hahaha can't find anything on SBW on the wing ;)
 
*Relief

Lol...

Having Nonu on the wing poses a real threat especially with SBW drawing two defenders and feeding Nonu into open space,..

THAT'S DANGEROUS!!! lol
 
Have you forgot that Nonu was a wing turned centre?.. He grew up playing on the wing and knows the position very well, and I think you underestimate Nonu's speed. Sure you don't see much of it when hes playing at centre because he just doesn't have the space, but when he does make tackle busts and has space to himself, nobody catches up to him.
As for him not having the defensive knowledge to play on the wing, Nonu is a world class player and a wings defensive patterns is not the hardest place to defend. And the way the game is played now it's very very hard to be exposed on defence as all defence lines are quite wide with the quick ruck ball and getting put on the outside is rarely seen, he is a very very very very very safe and sound defender so there is absolutely no problem there and as for the high ball, Hosea Gear is crap under the high ball, with Cory Jane it's 50/50 so I can't see Nonu doing any worse do too bad.

You just think about it, having defenders focussing on SBW and also Nonu, there are going to definitely be holes, and providing Nonu could beat almost anybody one on one, I think it's not a bad idea.

Not that I was aware of. When he came onto the scene for Wellington he was a centre, though he did play on the wing a couple of times (due to the quality of the Wellington midfield). He never impressed on the wing though; indeed he has only become a world class player since he moved in even closer to the scrum. I don't think he has anywhere near the speed needed to be a wing. Defence as a wing is not necessarily easier, it is just very different.. it is not just something you can pick up quickly. Nonu is an exceptional defender when players run straight at him, but he can be exposed by quicker players - that was one of the reasons he often struggled defensively at 13, and he would struggle even more on the wing. I could understand people suggesting that Nonu play on the wing if we were short of quality wings, but this is far from the case; when the likes of Jane, Sivivatu, Ben Smith, Ranger, Maitland, Rokocoko, Masaga etc can't even make the AB's 30-man squad we certainly don't have a shortage of wing talent!

Nonu better suited for wing - Smith

Interesting, coming from an All Blacks coach, it could well happen at some-point during the Tri Nations.

All Smith said is that Nonu is a better wing option than SBW (which is not really surprising). The only reason they would consider playing Nonu on the wing is if he (or SBW) are on the bench, which would mean Nonu would have to cover wing if one of the wings/fullback was injured (Indeed Nonu was covering the wing several times during last years EOYT, when both he and SBW were in the 22).
 
Agreed with darwin, there is no way Nonu is a wing. I've heard quite a few people suggesting he could be a wing option, but it doesn't make much sense.

1. The last time he played on the wing for the Hurricanes was when Tana Umaga was at inside centre, Conrad Smith was at outside centre and Nonu had already earned a good reputation as a quality player at centre.
2. When he was playing outside centre, he was 24-25 years old. He's obviously lost quite a bit of pace since then. He'd certainly be slower than most international wings. I'd say Gear and Jane are certainly better under the highball (Cory Jane was probably the best player in the world under the high ball in 2009, scoring a great try against Australia with his high game).
3. Hosea Gear is in the squad. He breaks tackles from the wing position probably better than any other player in New Zealand (Rene Ranger I'd imagine is right up there as well), plus he is an actual wing.
 
It's funny how every person in the world knows this to be the case except for many New Zealanders.

Maybe because New Zealanders are always thinking about attack but sometimes ignore defensive qualities. I don't know really but just because he isn't flashy like Nonu, I still certainly remember some extremely fantastic plays from Smith and you wonder how on earth he did it. His defence is also one of the best in the world and right now I'm trying to think of someone who is better but it is pretty hard. You really need Smith as he complements everyone so well, he allows the people with high error rates to do their thing because he will often clean up and is also extremely good at the ruck which no one mentions either. He is one of the best backs when it comes to ruck time as well.
 
Nonu and Smith imo.
Smith's our best centre and I think Nonu is better than SBW.
Nonu's experience could be key as well.
Last world cup we dropped nonu and it didn't go too well, so I reckon tried and true combinations are were it's at.
 

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