New England starting 15?

[welshglory]

The difference being Joe Marler is 21 and Tony Buckley 31. Give him a few years, props get better with age. Remember Gethin Jenkins wasn't always and still isn't the best scrummager!

 

[Peat]

Right. For a young prop, Marler is a good scrummager. Most young props go through this period of getting their head rammed up their own arse by those who have been around the block, and most of them emerge as better players for it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm not saying Marler won't be good, I'm just saying he's not good enough atm.
On current form I'd have him in the Saxons, but he'd be a massive liability at international level - especially as England (traditionally) have a decent scrum.


Corbisiero and Cole were both 22 when they made their England debuts, but both were/are much better scrummagers

 

[welshglory]

Completley agree with you there TRF_Olyy. Its just this Psychic Duck armchair critic who likes to sensationalise things

 

[Peat]

I'm not saying Marler won't be good, I'm just saying he's not good enough atm.
On current form I'd have him in the Saxons, but he'd be a massive liability at international level - especially as England (traditionally) have a decent scrum.


Corbisiero and Cole were both 22 when they made their England debuts, but both were/are much better scrummagers

I was pleasantly shocked at how well Corbs did in the scrum actually. Maybe giving Marler to Rowntree would have the same effect...

 

[psychic duck]

Right. For a young prop, Marler is a good scrummager. Most young props go through this period of getting their head rammed up their own arse by those who have been around the block, and most of them emerge as better players for it.

not true, there have been plenty of young props who have been good scrummagers as Olly says, Cole and Corbisiero were both young when they made their England debuts and much better than Marler

Juan Figallo from Argentina is still young, Owen Franks is still young and are both good scrummagers

There is a young Georgian prop as well called Vasil Kakovin who has been scrummaging really well in the Top 14 and he just turned 22

Montpellier brought in a youngster in 21 year old Mikheil Nariashvili to play Bath and he and the Montpellier scrum destroyed your old prop who has been around the block in David Flatman

so to say most get dominated is just false

Completley agree with you there TRF_Olyy. Its just this Psychic Duck armchair critic who likes to sensationalise things

currently in my opinion Marler is a loosehead version of Buckley, he may improve of course, but currently that's his level

Barbarians, Stade Français, Toulouse, Exeter etc most teams I see him play he gets dominated, I'm not sensationalising it's just my opinion

 

[Melhor Time]

Joe Marler... absolutely not. Not only is he a substandard scrumager but he has ego issues that get the better of him.

No more Deacon or Shaw. England should turn Croft into a secondrower. In 2015 he´ll be 30 and considering his height is 1.95m and he currently weighs 106KG I think he can pull it off. For now, I´d use him as England´s reserve secondrower covering Palmer and Lawes. Kenedy being the next in line.

14 Ashton, 15 Foden, 11 Armitage
13 Tuilagi, 12 Barritt
10. Flood, 9 Youngs

6 Robshaw (captain), Easter, 7 Wood
4 Lawes, 5 Palmer
1 Corbisiero, 2 Hartley, 3 Cole

16 Gray
17 Stevens
18 Croft
19 Seymour
20 Care
21 Farell
22 Benjamin

 

[Draggs]

Morgan will go with England, and would certainly be worth consideration for the bench.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Will he?
I'd be really really surprised if he chose England over Wales now.

 

[jordiev]

i wanna see cips back get some real flair about teh england team

 

[Me 1]

Will he?
I'd be really really surprised if he chose England over Wales now.

I wouldn't be surprised if he went for England, but then again I wouldn't be surprised if he went for Wales. The thing is, would he get picked for Wales? I would if available but Faletau and Ryan Jones may be taken as the two n.8 options. I think he has a better chance if he chose England as the other number 8's in England are not as good as Faletau, but he still has to compete with Waldrom, Narraway etc.

So, like I said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised either way.

What I think England team will be (Not what I want, otherwise I'd fill it with people like Banahan:lol
1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Tom Palmer
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Tom Wood
8. Thomas Waldrom
9. Danny Care
10. Toby Flood
11. Miles Benjamin/Charlie Sharples
12. Owen Farrell
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

16. Joe Gray
17. Matt Stevens?
18. Dave Attwood? (Gone blank, can't think of anyone else)
19. Tom Croft
20. Ben Youngs
21. Brad Barritt
22. Mike Brown

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Will he?
I'd be really really surprised if he chose England over Wales now.

This ... Gatland's had a little word with him but now Johnson is gone and Lancaster is in charge ... who knows.

 

[Draggs]

Will he?
I'd be really really surprised if he chose England over Wales now.

http://yfrog.com/odsozkcj

Guess we will see soon enough.

 

[Me 1]

http://yfrog.com/odsozkcj

Guess we will see soon enough.

Headline would suggest England have him. Oh well, so long as he stays at the Scarlets.....

 

[TRF_Cymro]

http://yfrog.com/odsozkcj

Guess we will see soon enough.

No disrespect to the paper ... but it has claimed stuff in the past that has not come even close to be true. We shall soon see.

 

[jordiev]

hopefully its true... if it is... england have got some good quality just about everywhere on the park

 

[Peat]

not true, there have been plenty of young props who have been good scrummagers as Olly says, Cole and Corbisiero were both young when they made their England debuts and much better than Marler

Juan Figallo from Argentina is still young, Owen Franks is still young and are both good scrummagers

There is a young Georgian prop as well called Vasil Kakovin who has been scrummaging really well in the Top 14 and he just turned 22

Montpellier brought in a youngster in 21 year old Mikheil Nariashvili to play Bath and he and the Montpellier scrum destroyed your old prop who has been around the block in David Flatman

so to say most get dominated is just false

Corbierso was not a strong scrummager domestically when picked and the strength of his performances in the 6N is probably the biggest credit to Rowntree's coaching (also, I hate to admit it, for Louis Deacon's scrummaging). Cole is a freak (who also went through a season of getting his head rammed up his arse for Leicester). Incidentally, both were 22 at the time; if Marler makes his debut before summer 2013, he'll have made his debut at the same age, so he's got a fair bit of time there to iron out the kinks.

Owen Franks is an absolute freak. Figallo, Kakovin, Nariashvili - none of them are names I am familiar with so I can't comment, but Flatman is a busted flush due to a shoulder injury that limits how high he can lift it - get him right and he can't bind and is then destroyed. So doing him over does not impress me.

It should also be remembered that Marler has turned in some good scrummaging performances, such as evading destruction against Toulouse and his Saxons cap against Italy A. He is also scrummaging with a poor tighthead and a lightweight second row (sans Kohn) at Quins, which does not help. How much of the current onus is truly down to him is debatable.

Finally, a handful of players from all over the world, some of whom should not have been on the list, do not disprove my point that most young props suffer a rocky ride. To look at some of England's recent age grade props - Thomas has taken a lot of pastings (most penalised and carded prop in the league I believe, although another man with a lightweight lock combo behind him), Brookes has taken a lot of pastings, Knight has only been given 3 games, Nathan Catt only really broke through last season, if you read Hampson's biography he was highly rated but suffered a few lessons while on loan... England do not do weak scrums at age grade level. The players selected are strong scrummagers for their age group. Most of our props have gone on to have very rude awakenings at the top level. It is not a coincidence that props are considered to be hitting their prime at about 28, if not older.

He's also already a better loose player than Buckley ever was which is why (when combined with his considerable scrummaging potential) some think its worth throwing him in already. A far better comparison than Buckley would be Healy, who looked ropey as hell in his first performances, but has since gone on to mature and throw in fairly steady scrummaging along (strangely coincidental with Buckley's replacement with Ross) with some excellent loose work.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If he chooses England (which I don't think he will) then I he'll probably move to an Aviva side, to avoid trouble with being released for camps etc.

He's a different player than Faletau (I actually prefer Morgan to Faletau, who I think (especially internationally) has been over praised immensely) so it won't be bad to be able to rotate between the two players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I prefer his style (I like #8s to be big ball carriers)
I think Faletau can do no wrong in a lot of peoples eyes - When he started out for Wales his hands were truely atrocious, he was knocking on everything, yet people were saying he was amazing
He's a good player, but not as good as many would have you believe.

If I were choosing an 8 it would be Morgan > Faletau, but I wouldn't fight over Morgan as we have Fearns who is as good as him, and will get better with more game time.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

After all that Neil Fissler (who is very rarely wrong) has said on Twitter that Ben Morgan has chosen England (and Chris Ashton will be unveiled by Sarries next week)