Merging UK sides in world series

[ncurd]

That's one hell of a chip you have there.

 

[McTallshort]

I am thoroughly aware of the situation thanks. It's the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Ergo it constitutes the GB territories in the "team GB" branding and Northern Ireland. If you saw the patriotic fervour of the state broadcaster during the Olympics it shouldn't surprise you that they write an article trying to defend the concept of "team GB".

It also doesn't surprise me that people who don't care about the fate of an historic 7s side of a country of 5 million also endorse a false Olympic team branding exercise that casually cuts out a nation of 1.5 million souls from the equation as if their contribution is irrelevant? Maybe we could change "Team GB" to "Team Celts" and you'd be fine with it?

Personally I don't lose any sleep over it as I've no ties to NI. I was just explaining why I refer to the UK Olympics 7s team. Simply for the sake of accuracy.

Have you got any real problems in your life?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Oops, missed this somehow. Yeah, my problem is people that are unable to form a coherent counter argument and, perhaps out of frustration at that inability, resort to childish attempts at insults.

 

[smartcooky]

Oops, missed this somehow. Yeah, my problem is people that are unable to form a coherent counter argument and, perhaps out of frustration at that inability, resort to childish attempts at insults.

THIS! I get this all the time.

If you have the temerity to insist that counter arguments are coherent, and that any claimed facts they contain really are facts and not opinion, you then get ridiculed (by the usual suspects of course) and told to get a life.

I have understood your "GB v UK" reasoning throughout this thread, it makes perfect sense to me. I can't see why you are copping so much flak for it.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

In fairness there are internal political dynamics in the UK over the last couple of years and Scottish folk aren't too popular at the moment (possibly coming across as "holier than thou" and not "good team players"). So I've maybe stumbled across that sentiment by posting this thread (and in the manner I posted this thread).

Anyway, the Mens 2018 7s World Cup listings were released last week showing Wales and England as automatic qualifiers due to their performance in the last 7s WC in Russia so, from my perspective, thankfully this discussion does look academic for the time being after all. Looks debatable if Scotland will manage to even qualify given the lack of qualification spots for Europe (possibly only 1?), but personally I'd rather lose as Scotland or Italy than win as something else (and heaven knows I've got plenty experience of that!).

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Mission finally accomplished by the glorious SRU. Similar sized nations like NZ and Ireland can have 7s, but not the birthplace of the sport. Incredibly dishonest move to hide behind the suggestion World Rugby made them do it, when clearly the sleekit SRU will have proposed this in the first place (as per proposal in 2015/16 by Scott Johnson).

The Scottish union have been slowly killing the uptake of XVs in their jurisdiction for years so I guess taking the guillotine to 7s and erasing it overnight can be considered a mercy killing by comparison.

Great Britain to join World Sevens Series - Rugby World

The England, Scotland and Wales teams will merge from the 2022-23 campaign, with Great Britain to join World Sevens Series

www.rugbyworld.com

I imagine the Welsh supported it because they are skint and need to cut costs, (no matter how modest) to try and keep their 4 franchises afloat and the Engish supported it as players will be based and trained in England, effectively leading to little more than a rebranded English team.

One day I'd like to wake up to news that indicates the SRU actually give a monkey's about the game in the jurisdiction they are custodiers for rather than increasingly destroying pathways for kids with athletic ability to represent their nation at 7s or XVs.

Scottish rugby 7s: 1883 to 2022
RIP

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Surprised it took this long after it became an Olympic sport tbh,

Makes sense as they can now get Olympic funding rather than relying on the unions who can't afford it and realistically don't care all that much about the sport

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Now that 7s has gotten world rugby into the olympics I imagine we won't be seeing World Rugby make as much of deal about it anymore. It will just be a luxury for the wealthier unions with excess players or for countries that just to chase olympic medals. Honestly I wish the US would stop chasing sevens glory and focus on 15s. We win gold medals in tons of **** and people don't start flocking to those sports. A gold medal in sevens would do a lot less for the game than the ability to make a living.

I totally get why the unions have done this.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Presume NI players aren't eligible? It isn't part of GB so it shouldn't be and it'd cause eligibility issues.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Surprised it took this long after it became an Olympic sport tbh,

Makes sense as they can now get Olympic funding rather than relying on the unions who can't afford it and realistically don't care all that much about the sport

The unions don't care about it but 7s has been a big deal in the Borders. The annual Melrose 7s would pull in a handy crowd (I think around 10k) and this year was the first time since at least 2008 it wasn't televised by the BBC. The SRU just want 7s to die and would happily have the Borders disappear off the map. I just find it another symptom of the disease that is the SRU that would seemingly happily outsource all their obligations if it was deemed profitable.

 

[Moseleyexile]

Also (and possibly related) Rugby Europe and the European Olympic Committee have agreed to have Sevens at the European Games from 2023. I guess all the big European nations (inc the new GB teams) will be sending teams for qualification (or a least a warm up) for Paris 2024. This is a press release from the European Olympic Website (from early July):

Historic agreement sees Rugby 7s included in the European Games Krakow Malopolska 2023 for the first time ever. The event will serve as the Paris 2024 Olympic Qualifier for Europe.

The European Olympic Committees (EOC) and Rugby Europe have announced the signature of an agreement for the organisation of the European Qualification tournament for the Olympic Games Paris 2024 as part of the European Games Krakow Malopolska 2023.

For the first time ever, Rugby Sevens will be included in the European Games, the continent's premier multi-sport event developed and organised by the EOC.

The third edition of the European Games will take place in Krakow and the regions of Malopolska and Śląsk from June 21st to July 2nd 2023.

The stand-alone tournament will take place at the Henryk Reyman Stadium in Krakow, the host of this weekend's Rugby Europe Men's Championship Series Krakow 2022.

The tournament will deliver a single European ticket (one per gender) to the Olympic Games Paris 2024, with 24 teams (12 Men and 12 Women's sides) battling it out for the chance to qualify.

The participants will be selected after the 2022 Rugby Europe Sevens Trophy and Championship Series and 2022/2023 World Rugby World Series in accordance with the Olympic Qualification System designed and approved by World Rugby and the IOC for the Olympic Games Paris 2024.

(Sorry can't post a link as the system isn't letting me)


It does look like (international) Sevens is going be dominated by the Olympic cycles so merging the teams is probably a sensible decision (and possibly necessary given what has happened on the Women's side). It should also allow the two teams to base their sponsorship deals on their Olympic results (which so far have been pretty good considering the issues they've had in the two buildups).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Presume NI players aren't eligible? It isn't part of GB so it shouldn't be and it'd cause eligibility issues.

Does anyone have an answer to this? Surely it doesn't tie players to a nation.

 

[Moseleyexile]

Does anyone have an answer to this? Surely it doesn't tie players to a nation.

Not sure. The IRFU represents all of the island of Ireland, but my understanding is that any citizen of Northern Ireland can claim British or Irish citizenship or both as per the Good Friday Agreement. So ultimately I don't think there's anything they could do to stop a player doing this. I imagine they may struggle to get an Irish contract in 15s if they chose to represent GB7s but then again these days Sevens is basically a different sport at the elite level.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Setting aside 7s origins in Scotland and my belief that the SRU could have found a solution that didn't extinguish the Scottish 7s national side. Let us do a thought experiment that I do not think is too outlandish.

We have 11 a side format football at the Olympics. So why not rugby XVs (which may hypothetically lead to a European wide qualification tournament where the 6N window is)? If posters who are comfortable with end of English, Welsh and Scottish 7s teams are equally comfortable with the prospect of the end of English, Wales and Scottish XVs, (and football) with all games played under the GB banner at Murrayfield (and Hampden), then I absolutely respect your position.

Of course this is not comparing apples with apples but generally people are not supportive of mergers that effectively end the existence of a club or team they have a strong affiliation with and relocate the base for potential players in the successor team hundreds of miles away.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Not sure. The IRFU represents all of the island of Ireland, but my understanding is that any citizen of Northern Ireland can claim British or Irish citizenship or both as per the Good Friday Agreement. So ultimately I don't think there's anything they could do to stop a player doing this. I imagine they may struggle to get an Irish contract in 15s if they chose to represent GB7s but then again these days Sevens is basically a different sport at the elite level.

That would be my sense also. If a NI 7s specialist was willing to relocate to London and wasnt already captured by the the Irish union then I'd imagine they'd be eligible for selection for the GB&NI Olympic team. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Which Tyler]

Does anyone have an answer to this? Surely it doesn't tie players to a nation.

You'd have to presume it's olympics rules - so NI players are free to choose for themselves

 

[Moseleyexile]

That would be my sense also. If a NI 7s specialist was willing to relocate to London and wasnt already captured by the the Irish union then I'd imagine they'd be eligible for selection for the GB&NI Olympic team. Don't quote me on that though.

Why would they need to relocate to London? My understanding is that the England sevens programme has been based out of Loughborough and (on the womens side even star) players have club contracts around the country.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That would be my sense also. If a NI 7s specialist was willing to relocate to London and wasnt already captured by the the Irish union then I'd imagine they'd be eligible for selection for the GB&NI Olympic team. Don't quote me on that though.

You'd have to presume it's olympics rules - so NI players are free to choose for themselves

Yeah I'd expect that but more wondering if it'd tie players in any way in the 15 man game. It's not uncommon to play 7s and then move into 15s like Hugo Keenan did so if an NI player plays for GB how would that affect eligibility?

 

[Moseleyexile]

Setting aside 7s origins in Scotland and my belief that the SRU could have found a solution that didn't extinguish the Scottish 7s national side. Let us do a thought experiment that I do not think is too outlandish.

We have 11 a side format football at the Olympics. So why not rugby XVs (which may hypothetically lead to a European wide qualification tournament where the 6N window is)? If posters who are comfortable with end of English, Welsh and Scottish 7s teams are equally comfortable with the prospect of the end of English, Wales and Scottish XVs, (and football) with all games played under the GB banner at Murrayfield (and Hampden), then I absolutely respect your position.

Of course this is not comparing apples with apples but generally people are not supportive of mergers that effectively end the existence of a club or team they have a strong affiliation with and relocate the base for potential players in the successor team hundreds of miles away.

IF the Olympics was the premier event I would support anything that made the team have the best potential to be successful. After all being successful is the best way to inspire the next generation.

But the Olympics is not and will never be the premier event in 15s. However given that the international sevens completions are all less than 30 years old we simply don't have the same competition histories and rivalries and the Olympics (and European Games/Pan American Games/Asian Games) are where the sevens game is heading.

 

[Moseleyexile]

Yeah I'd expect that but more wondering if it'd tie players in any way in the 15 man game. It's not uncommon to play 7s and then move into 15s like Hugo Keenan did so if an NI player plays for GB how would that affect eligibility?

I think that there is plenty of precedent for players representing one nation in sevens and then another in 15s. In a Scottish context Andrew Aitken played for Scotland sevens and then South Africa in 15s.