P
Prestwick
Guest
I'll get my coat....
-
Help Support The Rugby Forum :
S
shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Jun 8 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Jun 8 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
That is hilariously true. [/b][/quote]
Laughing all the way to the ban ... errrr ... IMF.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Jun 8 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Illegal immigrants? OUT! They prevent legit workers from bargaining fairly for wages, forcing them in to debt to maintain their standard of living. Plus they drain the taxpayer/give govt an excuse for more borrowing. OUT OUT OUT - by force.
Legal immigrants? IN! And let them live however they want. Decline to learn English? So what? It's freedom of choice - their choice not to maximise the opportunity. If they're legal - coming from a state that isn't a dictatorship - they can go back out the door ... by their own choice. If they refuse to subject their children to the religion of "gender exploration"? Good for them - wonderful freedom of choice.
The state is there to underpin, not to overwhelm. Britain is a choice.
I am native. And the BNP is a joke party, so don't worry about them. It's the big state parties that are screwing over British freedoms.
p.s. Sinn Fein might as well be right wing - the Nazi party and the Russian Communist party were more or less the same beast: individual subordinate to the system.
The banks didn't get it wrong - they made a fortune on the way up, and thanks to the politicians bailing them out with taxpayer money they're making a fortune on the way down. All part of the plan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Jun 8 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
That is hilariously true. [/b][/quote]
Laughing all the way to the ban ... errrr ... IMF.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Jun 8 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Agreeing heartily with first part ... tearing hair out at second part.
Illegal immigrants? OUT! They prevent legit workers from bargaining fairly for wages, forcing them in to debt to maintain their standard of living. Plus they drain the taxpayer/give govt an excuse for more borrowing. OUT OUT OUT - by force.
Legal immigrants? IN! And let them live however they want. Decline to learn English? So what? It's freedom of choice - their choice not to maximise the opportunity. If they're legal - coming from a state that isn't a dictatorship - they can go back out the door ... by their own choice. If they refuse to subject their children to the religion of "gender exploration"? Good for them - wonderful freedom of choice.
The state is there to underpin, not to overwhelm. Britain is a choice.
I am native. And the BNP is a joke party, so don't worry about them. It's the big state parties that are screwing over British freedoms.
p.s. Sinn Fein might as well be right wing - the Nazi party and the Russian Communist party were more or less the same beast: individual subordinate to the system.
P
Prestwick
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Jun 9 2009, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I don't think you understand. An amnesty would make those illeigal immigrants legal, thus joining the rest of the legit population in bargaining fairly for wages. Also, rounding up illeigal immigrants and expelling them sounds like an incredibly expensive and labour intensive exercise. Where would the money and manpower for this come from? The forces and police are already overstretched, may as well call out the BNP I guess
A lot of these illeigals work the jobs that we don't want to work. I've only been living in Central London for three months and already I've seen that half of society is kept running by a grey-market army of people who by our standards shouldn't be here by fault of being squirrelled into the country. Have you seen "A Day Without a Mexican"? I suggest you should as it illustrates just how dependant the West has become on grey/black market labour and how we should get these guys a better deal somehow.
No, a better way would be to beef up the immigration service and allow it to clear the backlogs of illeigal immigrants whose cases need to be heard. Sort out the bad apples and expel them, of course we should, but all of them? Better to process them properly, rescue them from whatever kind of indentured service or criminal gang that has them under lock and key and get them into proper society as a legit worker, Unionised and able to bargain properly and fairly for wages and (more importantly) pay taxes.
It is very easy to debate economic policy as it is cold, hard and lacks emotion. Social policy, when peoples lives and society as a whole is at stake however is full of "known unknowns" with chain reactions which are not entirely clear in what they will effect, how they will effect and when. People cannot simply arbitraily decide to do something such as rounding up ALL the illeigal immigrants and sending them home by force if neccessary as in the end people sound just as autocratic and authoritarian as the systems that they despise.
Also, when I say free English lessons, I say that they are optional. Apologies if I didn't make that clear. This is a choice but to create a fair system, we need to provide the tools for people to use but it is up to them to use, not the state. That is what I meant. On an interesting note, anyone I know who has worked in, "the system", has never heard of someone refusing to learn English when it is offered to them as a choice or whatever. Strike down another myth about immigration.
Again, if there were people who refused them, surely then they'd be a burden on the economy as they would be unable to properly compete in the labour market (thus preventing legit workers from bargaining fairly for wages) or in the economy as a whole, thus costing the state money and, as you say, giving the government an excuse to borrow more?
EDIT: Fact one of British politics: whatever you say will always come back to bite you on the arse. I should know, all of this is gonna rebound on me.
No, we need a six pronged attack on immigration and this should include:
1) Reform of the immigration service to properly process the backlog of cases and to sort out who can stay and who can leave.
2) An amnesty on those who can stay.
3) Provision and the offer of English tuition in order to allow them to properly compete in the labour market.
4) An end to EU members "pushing" illeigal immigrants slowly further and further inland towards the UK (i.e. you settle in the first place you land in)
5) An end to EU tarrifs, SERIOUS moves to force nations in the 3rd world to eliminate or cut back on corruption on pain of withdrawl of economic aid and cancelling of debt relief.
6) Better support for programs such as the Rainforest alliance and similar programs rolled out across other countries and areas to enable people to be successful where they live rather than having to endure the horrible experience of being smuggled across continents to get a better life.
I don't think you understand. An amnesty would make those illeigal immigrants legal, thus joining the rest of the legit population in bargaining fairly for wages. Also, rounding up illeigal immigrants and expelling them sounds like an incredibly expensive and labour intensive exercise. Where would the money and manpower for this come from? The forces and police are already overstretched, may as well call out the BNP I guess
A lot of these illeigals work the jobs that we don't want to work. I've only been living in Central London for three months and already I've seen that half of society is kept running by a grey-market army of people who by our standards shouldn't be here by fault of being squirrelled into the country. Have you seen "A Day Without a Mexican"? I suggest you should as it illustrates just how dependant the West has become on grey/black market labour and how we should get these guys a better deal somehow.
No, a better way would be to beef up the immigration service and allow it to clear the backlogs of illeigal immigrants whose cases need to be heard. Sort out the bad apples and expel them, of course we should, but all of them? Better to process them properly, rescue them from whatever kind of indentured service or criminal gang that has them under lock and key and get them into proper society as a legit worker, Unionised and able to bargain properly and fairly for wages and (more importantly) pay taxes.
It is very easy to debate economic policy as it is cold, hard and lacks emotion. Social policy, when peoples lives and society as a whole is at stake however is full of "known unknowns" with chain reactions which are not entirely clear in what they will effect, how they will effect and when. People cannot simply arbitraily decide to do something such as rounding up ALL the illeigal immigrants and sending them home by force if neccessary as in the end people sound just as autocratic and authoritarian as the systems that they despise.
Also, when I say free English lessons, I say that they are optional. Apologies if I didn't make that clear. This is a choice but to create a fair system, we need to provide the tools for people to use but it is up to them to use, not the state. That is what I meant. On an interesting note, anyone I know who has worked in, "the system", has never heard of someone refusing to learn English when it is offered to them as a choice or whatever. Strike down another myth about immigration.
Again, if there were people who refused them, surely then they'd be a burden on the economy as they would be unable to properly compete in the labour market (thus preventing legit workers from bargaining fairly for wages) or in the economy as a whole, thus costing the state money and, as you say, giving the government an excuse to borrow more?
EDIT: Fact one of British politics: whatever you say will always come back to bite you on the arse. I should know, all of this is gonna rebound on me.
No, we need a six pronged attack on immigration and this should include:
1) Reform of the immigration service to properly process the backlog of cases and to sort out who can stay and who can leave.
2) An amnesty on those who can stay.
3) Provision and the offer of English tuition in order to allow them to properly compete in the labour market.
4) An end to EU members "pushing" illeigal immigrants slowly further and further inland towards the UK (i.e. you settle in the first place you land in)
5) An end to EU tarrifs, SERIOUS moves to force nations in the 3rd world to eliminate or cut back on corruption on pain of withdrawl of economic aid and cancelling of debt relief.
6) Better support for programs such as the Rainforest alliance and similar programs rolled out across other countries and areas to enable people to be successful where they live rather than having to endure the horrible experience of being smuggled across continents to get a better life.
D
dullonien
Guest
And the TRF party was born......
L
Laetca
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Jun 10 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Was thinking the exact same thing.
Out of curiosity Pete, why do you spell illegal as 'illeigal'?
Was thinking the exact same thing.
Out of curiosity Pete, why do you spell illegal as 'illeigal'?
D
dullonien
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laetca @ Jun 10 2009, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Was thinking the exact same thing.[/b][/quote]
Be better than most parties out there, I'm sure!
Although I doubt calling people communists if they don't agree would go down well. Neither would the Chabal policy....................
Was thinking the exact same thing.[/b][/quote]
Be better than most parties out there, I'm sure!
Although I doubt calling people communists if they don't agree would go down well. Neither would the Chabal policy....................
P
Prestwick
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laetca @ Jun 10 2009, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Was thinking the exact same thing.
Out of curiosity Pete, why do you spell illegal as 'illeigal'?
[/b][/quote]
Because I'm mental.
Was thinking the exact same thing.
Out of curiosity Pete, why do you spell illegal as 'illeigal'?
[/b][/quote]
Because I'm mental.
L
Laetca
Guest
Makes sense.
Pete, you should write a program, we can summarize it in five words that could be understood by toddlers, print it on leaflets and distribute them throughout the world (we do have members from every continent, or are we missing one?)
local elections my foot, TRF could take over the world XD
Pete, you should write a program, we can summarize it in five words that could be understood by toddlers, print it on leaflets and distribute them throughout the world (we do have members from every continent, or are we missing one?)
local elections my foot, TRF could take over the world XD
S
shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Jun 10 2009, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
It.
Is.
The pound in your pocket also lacks emotion, but you wouldn't tear it up and throw it away because it refuses to show you the love.
Look - all of this social policy is veeeery expensive. You want to keep illegal immigrants AND the 1,000,000 or so people in this country who are allowed to pretend that they're too unhealthy to work so that they can claim rather healthy disability benefits? Doesn't it worry you that 20% of UK workers are employed by the state, with laughably unaffordable pensions? Aren't you angry that you're paying the mortgages of unemployed people who the government encouraged in their dream of home ownership, and that all those payments are going straight in to the coffers of insolvent banks that the taxpayer has already bailed out and being recycled in to bonuses and dividends that will never be recovered?
The day the Chinese and Arabs say, "Thanks but no thanks" to low yield UK gilts, we'll find out just how expensive the policy is: 80% income tax expensive? We are living in the last days of a bloated state, and running the risk of all our wealth being wiped out in a futile attempt to keep it pumped up.
I am the official opposition to the TRF party.
Indeed.
It.
Is.
The pound in your pocket also lacks emotion, but you wouldn't tear it up and throw it away because it refuses to show you the love.
Look - all of this social policy is veeeery expensive. You want to keep illegal immigrants AND the 1,000,000 or so people in this country who are allowed to pretend that they're too unhealthy to work so that they can claim rather healthy disability benefits? Doesn't it worry you that 20% of UK workers are employed by the state, with laughably unaffordable pensions? Aren't you angry that you're paying the mortgages of unemployed people who the government encouraged in their dream of home ownership, and that all those payments are going straight in to the coffers of insolvent banks that the taxpayer has already bailed out and being recycled in to bonuses and dividends that will never be recovered?
The day the Chinese and Arabs say, "Thanks but no thanks" to low yield UK gilts, we'll find out just how expensive the policy is: 80% income tax expensive? We are living in the last days of a bloated state, and running the risk of all our wealth being wiped out in a futile attempt to keep it pumped up.
I am the official opposition to the TRF party.
P
Prestwick
Guest
Hmm..I think I'll point out that I was all for properly processing all illeigal immigrants and asslylum seekers, creating an immigratio system with secure borders that works and offering immigrants the tools to compete in the UK effectively and that I never once mentioned keeping ALL the illiegals and definitely didn't say anything about funding an increasingly extravagant benefits bill. Again, I think our wires crossed somewhere.
L
Laetca
Guest
How about rounding up all illegals, dumping them in a 10 km radius of the UK in the water, arm the coast guard with tranquillizer darts, anyone who can swim back and get on shore before being shot=falling asleep=drowning is allowed to stay, the rest is properly taken care off and are no longer a 'burden' on any one. It would be like survival of the fittest! Or eugenics, and who doesn't like that?
I don't know how the UK came to have immigrants other than being wealthy, but for instance in Belgium many Spanish and Italian workers were invited to come over and do the dirty work no one wanted to do, same with North African and Turkish people a decade later or so. Any one who came up with that, thought they would live here for a few years and then return was out of his freaking mind, naturally this didn't happen and 'real' Belgians (like that guy with his pretty sign up there) are protesting newcomers. Not to sound stupid, but they pretty much brought it upon themselves.
This of course doesn't help the immigration situation in any way, but maybe people should start to realise that immigrants are also people, you can't process them as if they were faulty merchandise that needs to be sent back to the manufacturer.
There's no actual point to this post, sorry just wanted to make it.
I don't know how the UK came to have immigrants other than being wealthy, but for instance in Belgium many Spanish and Italian workers were invited to come over and do the dirty work no one wanted to do, same with North African and Turkish people a decade later or so. Any one who came up with that, thought they would live here for a few years and then return was out of his freaking mind, naturally this didn't happen and 'real' Belgians (like that guy with his pretty sign up there) are protesting newcomers. Not to sound stupid, but they pretty much brought it upon themselves.
This of course doesn't help the immigration situation in any way, but maybe people should start to realise that immigrants are also people, you can't process them as if they were faulty merchandise that needs to be sent back to the manufacturer.
There's no actual point to this post, sorry just wanted to make it.
S
shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laetca @ Jun 11 2009, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Illegal non-EUs? Nobody evey asked me if I wanted to pay for them. So I intend not to pay.
EU workers fine.
Illegal non-EUs? Nobody evey asked me if I wanted to pay for them. So I intend not to pay.
