Jiffy having a go at the Italians...

[Amiga500]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36068740

"I don't think at the moment that they offer anything to the Pro12," Davies told Scrum V.

"I don't think it's good for any of the sides in there and I don't think it's good for the Italian sides."

"You imagine being a Zebre player or Treviso player and getting walloped every week. It doesn't do your confidence any good, your attitude, and I just feel that it's not right for anyone."

"It's difficult for everyone else involved because of the Italians and I think they should look at somewhere where maybe they can develop the players and be competitive, and maybe that's in one of the French leagues."



Davies also believes the rules that allow the highest-placed Italian Pro12 team to enter the European Champions Cup should be revised.
"They're not good enough - they should go straight into the Challenge Cup,"

Opinions?


----------------------------------------------------


IMO he should stick his opinion up his arse.

- While 11th and 12th are the Italians, 8th, 9th and 10th are Welsh. Drop the Italians and who are the perrenial losers? The dragons.
- Connacht are the perfect example of what can be done with vision and leadership. Hopefully Conor O'Shea can help the FIR in this regard.
- Replacing (as opposed to supplementing) them with Georgian or Romanian sides would not serve the league or rugby in Europe any better.
- The European cup is what it is because it covers all the Tier 1s in Europe. Not a select few Irish, English and French teams.




[Note from above; I'd be happy expanding the league to 14 teams, including a Georgian and Romanian side. The top teams would be able to play largely reserves against them for a few years anyway, so player burn out is not an issue.]

 

[FrenchFan]

and his idea of involving the 2 italian teams in the French league doesn't make a lot of sense. They would bring nothing to the party and devalue our competition. Also, T14 is looking at moving towards less teams to a T12, not more.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think moving the Italians to say pro D2 would make a lot of sense personally.

Should be able to at least hold their own there, and trust be competitive to a good level, and grow there team, it is also a league where teams do earns there promotion and if an Italian team was to win it I would say dersrve to be in the top 14.

 

[McTallshort]

They need to start improving and fast. The pro 12 is a very competitive league not a charity event and the Italian sides are undermining it's credibility. Also there inclusion in the champions cup is just a bonus point win for all the other sides in the group. D2 makes a lot of sense.

 

[gaston le gaff]

in my opinion they would not surbvive the Pro D2 nor would some of the Pro 12 teams obviously not the Irish, but certainly maybe the Welsh we will see this weekend just how good the Dragons are???? either give them a chance in Fed 1 and see how it goes, but they do need to play competitive rugby or they will just vanish which would be shame as they have spent 16 years working hard to get where they are today.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

in my opinion they would not surbvive the Pro D2 nor would some of the Pro 12 teams obviously not the Irish, but certainly maybe the Welsh we will see this weekend just how good the Dragons are???? either give them a chance in Fed 1 and see how it goes, but they do need to play competitive rugby or they will just vanish which would be shame as they have spent 16 years working hard to get where they are today.

That's rubbish Gaston, the worst side outside the Italians is the Dragons, they're in the challenge cup semi-final and beat Castres and Pau on the way. Even if the Frenchies were playing second sides the results show that the Dragons would at worst comfortably survive in Pro D2 and likely be in and around contention at the business end of the season.

The pro 12 has become a lot stronger over the course of this year, I hope it shows up well next year in Europe because that is likely to be the final year that it's sides can be competitive before money begins to talk too much outside it.

The Italians are weak and have been getting weaker for a few seasons now., I'd like to see one of their sides dropped for a Georgian representative, the Georgian's would bring higher attendances, level of play and potential growth in the short term. 14 teams is too much, the number of games is too high as it stands.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That's rubbish Gaston, the worst side outside the Italians is the Dragons, they're in the challenge cup semi-final and beat Castres and Pau on the way. Even if the Frenchies were playing second sides the results show that the Dragons would at worst comfortably survive in Pro D2 and likely be in and around contention at the business end of the season.

The pro 12 has become a lot stronger over the course of this year, I hope it shows up well next year in Europe because that is likely to be the final year that it's sides can be competitive before money begins to talk too much outside it.

The Italians are weak and have been getting weaker for a few seasons now., I'd like to see one of their sides dropped for a Georgian representative, the Georgian's would bring higher attendances, level of play and potential growth in the short term. 14 teams is too much, the number of games is too high as it stands.

Agree 100% Gaston your speaking bull on this point, and if an Italian side was to get relegated then so be it, (I doubt they would though). IMO they would develop better in the pro D2 than the Pro 12.

A Georgian side would be good to see involved in one of those leagues.

 

[Amiga500]

14 teams is too much, the number of games is too high as it stands.

Disagree.

If the "big-teams" have to do a bit of squad rotation when playing the "so-called" minnows, then it makes that individual game more competitive, helping both the fringe squad player at the big team get blooded and the minnows* win games rather than get humped endlessly.


*unless the minnows are having to flog the same 15 players week in week out.

 

[Tony Manx]

Disagree.

If the "big-teams" have to do a bit of squad rotation when playing the "so-called" minnows, then it makes that individual game more competitive, helping both the fringe squad player at the big team get blooded and the minnows* win games rather than get humped endlessly.


*unless the minnows are having to flog the same 15 players week in week out.

With you on this one! Why chop out 4 club games per annum? The squads are built for it now and the only losers would be the supporters who, I doubt, would see a reduction in their season tickets!!

As for Italians in Top 14 or Pro 2 - never going to happen so why get bothered about hypotheticals!!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Disagree.

If the "big-teams" have to do a bit of squad rotation when playing the "so-called" minnows, then it makes that individual game more competitive, helping both the fringe squad player at the big team get blooded and the minnows* win games rather than get humped endlessly.


*unless the minnows are having to flog the same 15 players week in week out.

We do that anyway, it's a pretty big disadvantage as it is with internationals. Looking at it on a bigger scale, the guys in the SH play an awful lot less rugby than the NH but play at a better standard when they do. They enjoy more successful and longer careers because of it.

 

[Amiga500]

Looking at it on a bigger scale, the guys in the SH play an awful lot less rugby than the NH but play at a better standard when they do. They enjoy more successful and longer careers because of it.

Correlation does not imply causation.

A few possible reasons for more success and longer careers; (1)Most of them aren't gym monkeys, (2)most of their coaches aren't gym monkeys, (3)they try to hit space, not men, (4)their coaches focus on developing skills, not dropping more sweat.


Do South Africans, who play an abrasive style more like the NH than Australia or New Zealand have significantly longer careers? I'd think for every Victor Matfield, there is a Simon Shaw.

 

[Bee]

They should make a league with the "big" teams of the lower tier nations...
Winning every match with 20+ points does not make any sense. But getting hammered every match does not, either.
Infrastructure + money in Italy are not comparable to those in the "big" home nations.
How should Italian (or other countries') Rugby improve with losing every match ?

 

[FrenchFan]

As for Italians in Top 14 or Pro 2 - never going to happen so why get bothered about hypotheticals!!

Absolutely. Nobody wants them here. No room at the inn.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Correlation does not imply causation.

A few possible reasons for more success and longer careers; (1)Most of them aren't gym monkeys, (2)most of their coaches aren't gym monkeys, (3)they try to hit space, not men, (4)their coaches focus on developing skills, not dropping more sweat.


Do South Africans, who play an abrasive style more like the NH than Australia or New Zealand have significantly longer careers? I'd think for every Victor Matfield, there is a Simon Shaw.

By mentioning the Saffa's you have contradicted your previous points. Etzebeth has the most impressive gym stats in the game, Brad Thorn's were the best in Leinster when he was here too. South Africa beat teams up with contact after contact and then hit space, tactics related with the NH right there. (4) is a reason but not the only one otherwise England would never have won a World Cup because you don't need to be the most skillful team with ball in hand to be the best, until recent NZ sides they rarely have been.

The NH sides are far more competitive at the end of their season than we are at ours, it's rare they tire and if they do it's usually due to attritional Tri-nations games leading to injuries rather than having a period from early February to late May where, having already played five months of competitive rugby, an international player can have anywhere between 5 and 12 season defining games played at a higher intensity than most of what preceded them in the season.

The NH has had no players comparible to Dan Carter, Nonu, Smith, Botha to an extent, Habana, De Villiers and Ritchie McCaw who played to their peak levels into their mid-thirties.

 

[profitius]

The position the Italians find themselves in is frustrating for everyone, including themselves. The people running Italian rugby messed up big time but are showing signs of making the right changes now. Its about 10 or 15 years late but better now than never.


Calling for them to be dropped is madness. Italy has great potential as a rugby nation and its these type of teams that should be supported. Personally I thought 2 Italian sides were too much. They should have started off with 1 side and make that competitive first before being allowed another. If the Pro12 is to expand, only allow 1 team per country until the country proves it can supply 2 competitive teams.


I thought I read somewhere the other day that said the 2 Italian sides had only a part time s&c coach.


I also think 4 Welsh teams is too many. The Dragons have been down near the bottom for a decade now, with no signs of improvement. They lose all their best players too so they are a development region. They're not getting beat as badly as the Italians but I'd say the Italians will pass them out in 2 or 3 years.

 

[Bee]

Calling for them to be dropped is madness. Italy has great potential as a rugby nation and its these type of teams that should be supported. Personally I thought 2 Italian sides were too much. They should have started off with 1 side and make that competitive first before being allowed another. If the Pro12 is to expand, only allow 1 team per country until the country proves it can supply 2 competitive teams.

I'd rather have a Georgian club side, then.
Huge potential as well...

 

[smartcooky]

Dominance of rugby teams, or lack of it, comes in cycles (look at NZ in 1998 compared with 2013). The Italians are just like any other country as far as this is concerned but unfortunately for them, they don't seem to hit a very big high when they are up, and they go very low when they are down Right now is one of those down times.

IMO, the fact that the Five Nations committee sat on their hands for five years before admitting them to the Six Nations is one of the reasons why this is happening now. In the 10 years before 2000 when they were admitted, they were winning 25% of their games against Tier 1 opposition, beating Ireland, France and Scotland and pushing England and Wales close on a couple of occasions. But by the time the Old Farts acted, it was too late, most of the players that made up that team had retired and the Azzuri team that started the Six nations was on the downward slide. They won their first ever Six Nations match, and then it was all downhill after that.

I fear the same thing could happen with Argentina if we are not careful. They should have been in the Rugby Championship straight after the 2007 RWC when they were third in the world so that they could capitalise on that success. Instead, SANZAR stuffed around like a bunch of old women for another five years before admitting them in 2012. By then, players of the likes of Agustin Pichot, Ignacio Fernandez-Lobbe, Martín Durand, Lucas Ostiglia, Mario Ledesma, Omar Hasan, Gonzalo Longo, Manuel Contepomi and Ignatio Corleto had retired. They were the backbone of that 2007 team (arguably the greatest Pumas team in their history) but they never got the chance they deserved (and indeed earned) to play in the Rugby Championship. I am convinced that had they been allowed to join in 2008, they would by now have already passed the hurdle of beating the All Blacks.

 

[nickdnz]

Dominance of rugby teams, or lack of it, comes in cycles (look at NZ in 1998 compared with 2013). The Italians are just like any other country as far as this is concerned but unfortunately for them, they don't seem to hit a very big high when they are up, and they go very low when they are down Right now is one of those down times.

IMO, the fact that the Five Nations committee sat on their hands for five years before admitting them to the Six Nations is one of the reasons why this is happening now. In the 10 years before 2000 when they were admitted, they were winning 25% of their games against Tier 1 opposition, beating Ireland, France and Scotland and pushing England and Wales close on a couple of occasions. But by the time the Old Farts acted, it was too late, most of the players that made up that team had retired and the Azzuri team that started the Six nations was on the downward slide. They won their first ever Six Nations match, and then it was all downhill after that.

I fear the same thing could happen with Argentina if we are not careful. They should have been in the Rugby Championship straight after the 2007 RWC when they were third in the world so that they could capitalise on that success. Instead, SANZAR stuffed around like a bunch of old women for another five years before admitting them in 2012. By then, players of the likes of Agustin Pichot, Ignacio Fernandez-Lobbe, Martín Durand, Lucas Ostiglia, Mario Ledesma, Omar Hasan, Gonzalo Longo, Manuel Contepomi and Ignatio Corleto had retired. They were the backbone of that 2007 team (arguably the greatest Pumas team in their history) but they never got the chance they deserved (and indeed earned) to play in the Rugby Championship. I am convinced that had they been allowed to join in 2008, they would by now have already passed the hurdle of beating the All Blacks.

Possibly, but they DID only finish one place fewer in the last RWC - and I think the next generation of Pumas is looking very promising.

 

[profitius]

I'd rather have a Georgian club side, then.
Huge potential as well...

Maybe but Georgia is far away so it would be costly.


The Pro 12 are going to do something in the not too distant future. They met recently and gave managing director Martin Anayi the green light. If new sides are accepted into the competition, they'll need time and money.

 

[psychic duck]

Dominance of rugby teams, or lack of it, comes in cycles (look at NZ in 1998 compared with 2013). The Italians are just like any other country as far as this is concerned but unfortunately for them, they don't seem to hit a very big high when they are up, and they go very low when they are down Right now is one of those down times.

IMO, the fact that the Five Nations committee sat on their hands for five years before admitting them to the Six Nations is one of the reasons why this is happening now. In the 10 years before 2000 when they were admitted, they were winning 25% of their games against Tier 1 opposition, beating Ireland, France and Scotland and pushing England and Wales close on a couple of occasions. But by the time the Old Farts acted, it was too late, most of the players that made up that team had retired and the Azzuri team that started the Six nations was on the downward slide. They won their first ever Six Nations match, and then it was all downhill after that.

I fear the same thing could happen with Argentina if we are not careful. They should have been in the Rugby Championship straight after the 2007 RWC when they were third in the world so that they could capitalise on that success. Instead, SANZAR stuffed around like a bunch of old women for another five years before admitting them in 2012. By then, players of the likes of Agustin Pichot, Ignacio Fernandez-Lobbe, Martín Durand, Lucas Ostiglia, Mario Ledesma, Omar Hasan, Gonzalo Longo, Manuel Contepomi and Ignatio Corleto had retired. They were the backbone of that 2007 team (arguably the greatest Pumas team in their history) but they never got the chance they deserved (and indeed earned) to play in the Rugby Championship. I am convinced that had they been allowed to join in 2008, they would by now have already passed the hurdle of beating the All Blacks.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. The timing of Italy's admission might have had some relevance to their results back in 2000 or 2001. But it is no excuse for their continued failure to develop stronger teams 15 years later.

Also there's absolutely no way a Santiago Phelan coached side would have ever beaten the All Blacks had they joined in 2008.