James O'Connor: another big name in Toulon

[ratsapprentice]

Toulon don't really give a **** about developing their own team though... they let go of one of the most promising French players (Fickou) from their academy due to their focus being on buying in players.

 

[FrenchFan]

Well in my opinion they should be. Works for nearly every other top tier nation. It may not be the problem of the French clubs but it could become your problem as a French fan if you care about the long term continuity of the team.

>>Sorry im not worried about which way the national team is going. Its not a priority for me and many rugby fans over here. The national team is important but its secondary to clubs. Its just a question of priority. If France win the next 6N well and good, if they dont, i wont lose sleep over it.
I like the 6N and I support les bleus of course. But theres only 5 games in the 6N to get excited about vs a full top 14 season from september to june + European cups.

Also, you seem to forget that clubs are already doing a lot that benefit the national team: pre-season conditioning, looking after players welfare and paying for their medical bills during injury layoffs, recruiting extra players to cover for internationals etc they are doing enough as it. Then its over to the Federation and national coach to deliver because they are in charge of the national side, not the clubs. It is what it is. .

 

[FrenchFan]

Toulon don't really give a **** about developing their own team though... they let go of one of the most promising French players (Fickou) from their academy due to their focus being on buying in players.

>>well what would u know about the Toulon academy? they dont let go of their promising players. These players have the right to go to other clubs as well. They are not contractually obliged to stay in Toulon. They receive offers from other clubs and can move if they want. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I know that they only have 2-3 guys in their senior squad who they developed, and most of those guys will probably leave at some point in the next couple of years due to being stuck behind imports.

 

[FrenchFan]

I know that they only have 2-3 guys in their senior squad who they developed, and most of those guys will probably leave at some point in the next couple of years due to being stuck behind imports.

>>>>> nothing wrong with these guys leaving if they get a better offer. Its called players mobility. They have produced great players over many decades in the Toulon academy Yohann Maestri at Toulouse and France 2nd row is one of them. He was poached by Toulouse. Thats not a poor reflection on Toulon. He got a better offer in Toulouse when he was younger. Hard to beat an offer from Toulouse. Theres great rugby academy in the top french clubs. Toulon is one of them.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I didn't say they had a bad academy, just that they don't really care that they do because they don't use those players as anything more than backup anyway.

 

[McTallshort]

Wonder how many of the people bemoaning Toulon would be complaining if it was their club/regions with these big name signings

 

[ratsapprentice]

There's nothing wrong with signing players... however the extent to which Toulon have done so is literally ridiculous.

 

[FrenchFan]

Wonder how many of the people bemoaning Toulon would be complaining if it was their club/regions with these big name signings

>> yes exactly. And demonising Toulon out of sheer jealousy is plain ridiculous.

 

[Nielsch]

Well in my opinion they should be. Works for nearly every other top tier nation. It may not be the problem of the French clubs but it could become your problem as a French fan if you care about the long term continuity of the team.

Most people in the south of France care more for their local team than for the national team which almost plays all of its matches up north in paris, lille or le havre. And rightly so. Why would they care more for a team which they can only watch on telly than for a team they can watch in the stadium every week, that does community bonding, grants wishes of sick kids etc...?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

>> yes exactly. And demonising Toulon out of sheer jealousy is plain ridiculous.

Jealousy? Who's jealous, people are simply stating that Toulon, and teams like them, are ruining international rugby. It's true, they're taking players and overplaying them to the extent where they can't perform as well as they could be if they played 5-10 less matches a season.

Most people in the south of France care more for their local team than for the national team which almost plays all of its matches up north in paris, lille or le havre. And rightly so. Why would they care more for a team which they can only watch on telly than for a team they can watch in the stadium every week, that does community bonding, grants wishes of sick kids etc...?

I rarely get to Ireland matches because of ticket availability and price whereas I'm a Leinster season ticket holder, I've played rugby under Leinster branch competitions my whole life and I've received coaching from Leinster coaches and players. Give me a choice between a Grand Slam and a H Cup, I'd choose the slam every time. In my opinion Country comes ahead of Club every time for me, kids don't grow up wanting to play for Leinster or Toulon they want to play for Ireland or France.

Maybe it's different in France and if it is I can't comprehend it.

 

[psychic duck]

Jealousy? Who's jealous, people are simply stating that Toulon, and teams like them, are ruining international rugby. It's true, they're taking players and overplaying them to the extent where they can't perform as well as they could be if they played 5-10 less matches a season.

How are Toulon ruining international rugby?

 

[nickdnz]

How are Toulon ruining international rugby?

Well...I assume he means the current trend of French clubs buying so many expensive imports as part of the problem with France's luck in international rugby.

More to the point I'd personally argue that the trend of buying players like Habana, Giteau, Hayman, Mitchell etc certainly doesn't help international rugby teams, as they are often uncooperative in terms of making players avalible and in good condition - or their signing them rules them out of international selection. That said, I think that's a part of professionalism we all have to live with - but I do agree the domestic game as a whole in France hurts international rugby (...at least tier 1 countries!).

 

[psychic duck]

Well...I assume he means the current trend of French clubs buying so many expensive imports as part of the problem with France's luck in international rugby.

More to the point I'd personally argue that the trend of buying players like Habana, Giteau, Hayman, Mitchell etc certainly doesn't help international rugby teams, as they are often uncooperative in terms of making players avalible and in good condition - or their signing them rules them out of international selection. That said, I think that's a part of professionalism we all have to live with - but I do agree the domestic game as a whole in France hurts international rugby (...at least tier 1 countries!).

The first point is one I would argue strongly against. In fact I think there has been a bit of an excuse culture around PSA and the French national team right now.

As for the second point, Giteau, Hayman, Habana and Mitchell nobody forced them to sign their contracts. If South Africa wanted Habana to play less games they should have forked out the cash, and if New Zealand wanted Hayman nobody forced them to apply those rules. Boudjellal said he couldn't stop Hayman playing for NZ if he was allowed. Toulon are willing to spend the money, they can play them as much as their contracts allow.

I also think it's a bit rich that the international point of view complains of the clubs, when the international teams themselves don't exactly mind hurting the domestic leagues in Europe. This is no more prevalent than the Pro12. The other leagues also have international weekends taking players as well. In my opinion, both sides would need to compromise on fixtures to avoid clashes. Internationals have been greedy as well in how many matches they squeeze into the schedule as well, especially in Wales with the 4th international and Barbarians games alongside taking players out for training camps weeks beforehand.

 

[FrenchFan]

Jealousy? Who's jealous, people are simply stating that Toulon, and teams like them, are ruining international rugby. It's true, they're taking players and overplaying them to the extent where they can't perform as well as they could be if they played 5-10 less matches a season.

>>ridiculous claim. How could ONE club ruin international rugby all on its own. Toulon are not big enough for that! they play the number of games required by the league. And Toulon dont get to decide that!




I rarely get to Ireland matches because of ticket availability and price whereas I'm a Leinster season ticket holder, I've played rugby under Leinster branch competitions my whole life and I've received coaching from Leinster coaches and players. Give me a choice between a Grand Slam and a H Cup, I'd choose the slam every time. In my opinion Country comes ahead of Club every time for me, kids don't grow up wanting to play for Leinster or Toulon they want to play for Ireland or France.

Maybe it's different in France and if it is I can't comprehend it.

>> yes it is different for some people. Many will never get to play Int rugby. And many kids want to play for the big clubs. You can see that in other sports like soccer. I remember kids in Spain stating that playing for Real Madrid or Barcelona was their dream. Oddly enough they didnt mention the national team.

 

[FrenchFan]

The first point is one I would argue strongly against. In fact I think there has been a bit of an excuse culture around PSA and the French national team right now.
>>yes good point. PSA got to keep his job after a wooden spoon. He wouldn't have kept his job as a Top14 coach had his team finish bottom of the Top14.
NOTHING has changed in the french team. Nobody in the staff got fired. Lagisquet also gets to keep his job and he is a terrible backs coach. Nobody questions the insane decision by PSA to stick with a clearly out-form Michalak and discarding a proven 10 like FTD when there is a dearth of quality at 10. But hey thats the dysfunctional culture at work in the Federation. They all want to keep their jobs. That must be Toulon's fault.

 

[McTallshort]

No its all the fault if the greedy club owners dont you read the other threads on here.....

 

[FrenchFan]

Well...I assume he means the current trend of French clubs buying so many expensive imports as part of the problem with France's luck in international rugby.

More to the point I'd personally argue that the trend of buying players like Habana, Giteau, Hayman, Mitchell etc certainly doesn't help international rugby teams, as they are often uncooperative in terms of making players avalible and in good condition - or their signing them rules them out of international selection.

>>not true. All the Springboks players in Toulouse and Toulon were released for the 4Nations. They have clauses in their contract that say so. All these players have signed with french clubs on the condition that they are to be released for Int duty. Otherwise the springbocks would NOT have been at full strength during both 4N and AI. Sorry facts dont support your claim about Top 14 ruining Int rugby. What nonsense.

That said, I think that's a part of professionalism we all have to live with - but I do agree the domestic game as a whole in France hurts international rugby (...at least tier 1 countries!).

>>All right so what about the claim that Int Rugby is ruining the Top 14? When an international gets injured playing for his country and is no longer employable by his club, his employer loses a key player which damages his prospect in the domestice league.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How are Toulon ruining international rugby?

Toulon, and teams like them, Racing Metro, Clermont, Bayonne teams that hire mercenaries in general, they've ****ed up the French side pretty badly and they'll **** up other nations as well if they're allowed.

>> yes it is different for some people. Many will never get to play Int rugby. And many kids want to play for the big clubs. You can see that in other sports like soccer. I remember kids in Spain stating that playing for Real Madrid or Barcelona was their dream. Oddly enough they didnt mention the national team.

Soccer and Rugby are completely different though. Champions league is the highest quality football there is, the club game at the top level is the peak. Rugby on the other hand still has the international game as the main attraction and best level of rugby, we've seen from football that big money teams and leagues can ruin this. International rugby has to remain the peak otherwise rugby goes to ****.

 

[McTallshort]

Toulon, and teams like them, Racing Metro, Clermont, Bayonne teams that hire mercenaries in general, they've ****ed up the French side pretty badly and they'll **** up other nations as well if they're allowed.



Soccer and Rugby are completely different though. Champions league is the highest quality football there is, the club game at the top level is the peak. Rugby on the other hand still has the international game as the main attraction and best level of rugby, we've seen from football that big money teams and leagues can ruin this. International rugby has to remain the peak otherwise rugby goes to ****.

Yeah the world cup and Euros are always a huge failure....Seriously this not a real aurgument the only difference between International Football and Rugby is there are a few less internationals in Football.