Italy’s future in 6N

[Which Tyler]

$$$

From?
And why is the claim that it will appear different this time to the previous however many?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

South Africa joining the 6N is a solution looking for a problem, and failing to find one; and doesn't really do anyone any good.

The problem with the 6N, as has been mentioned repeatedly, is that it's a closed shop; but the solution is tough to find.
6 is plenty of teams already, and I don't think the tounie could cope with expanding to 8, or any odd number.

So promotion/relegation is the only answer - but bring the question of "but how"
For home & away fixtures to even out, it needs to be every 2 years; but even then, every 4 would be better to allow the promoted team a chance to get their feet under the table - which would effectively kill the relegated team down to, at best, the level Georgia currently occupy - comfortably better than every else, but nowhere near good enough to challenge the top tier.
So it kinda has to be a play-off between the bottom of the 6N and the top of the ENC - to be fair, it needs to be home and away; or at least, at a neutral venue. Which means you need to find space in the calendar. That space needs to be found for every team in the 6N in case they suffer a terrible run and end up last. That space simply doesn't exist in an already congested fixture.

It's also pointless aiming for a top-down approach, greater investment and encouragement is needed at the age-grade and club level of the lower tiers in Europe. Which is tough as hell, and beyond the remit of the 6N comittee.

I think the easiest, viable change might be to expansion of the U20s 6N and allow promotion within the EPRC (is the 3rd tier of that even running still?)

In answer to your final paragraph, no. EPCR removed the connection between the Rugby Europe tournament and Challenge Cup and instead inserted SA. So Rugby Europe pro-sides have nowhere to go and are looking at crazy things like playing the Cheetahs in SA and also in the Currie Cup. I think your suggestion of u20s being expanded plus promotion / relegation via the EPCR is probably the best sort of compromise solution that would preserve the status quo but leave a meaningful opportunity to progress. But I can't imagine that happening as World Rugby cancelled the World u20s I believe (so Georgia can't play anyone and their development will suffer).

The SARU always posture, but this time they are in URC and EPCR. I would be surprised if the 6N unions supported SA involvement in EPCR but objected to them in the 6N, especially as that would align their calender to the NH and probably kill off any meaningful anti-Beaumont alliance at the next World Rugby election. So I think this stands a reasonable chance of happening.

 

[ChicagoKid]

From?
And why is the claim that it will appear different this time to the previous however many?

The biggest one is the TV audience. South Africa is the biggest Southern Hemisphere television audience. You package 15-20 million added viewers to the Six Nations and you get increased advertising dollars, which translates to a richer broadcasting deal.

This is why Georgia, Portugal, Romania, etc are not attractive. They lack television viewers and in our modern TV ecosystem, Live viewership is the single most important aspect for broadcasters.

 

[Which Tyler]

The biggest one is the TV audience. South Africa is the biggest Southern Hemisphere television audience. You package 15-20 million added viewers to the Six Nations and you get increased advertising dollars, which translates to a richer broadcasting deal.

This is why Georgia, Portugal, Romania, etc are not attractive. They lack television viewers and in our modern TV ecosystem, Live viewership is the single most important aspect for broadcasters.

So no difference to the previous however many times they've used this same tactic.

So where are these TV viewers who will watch SA in the 6N, but won't watch them in the TN/QN? Because those are the ones that matter.
Otherwise, SA already has a TV deal that covers South African audience, and the 6N already has TV deals that cover the 6N audience.

As Bruce says, the difference is that they've got a toe in the door with their clubs
That's it.

 

[ChicagoKid]

So no difference to the previous however many times they've used this same tactic.

So where are these TV viewers who will watch SA in the 6N, but won't watch them in the TN/QN? Because those are the ones that matter.
Otherwise, SA already has a TV deal that covers South African audience, and the 6N already has TV deals that cover the 6N audience.

As Bruce says, the difference is that they've got a toe in the door with their clubs
That's it.

I don't have access to SuperSport's TV rating data, but I would bet my house that Six Nations games don't rate as well as games involving the Springboks. So adding the Springboks brings in more viewers than currently watch the 6N in South Africa.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't have access to SuperSport's TV rating data, but I would bet my house that Six Nations games don't rate as well as games involving the Springboks. So adding the Springboks brings in more viewers than currently watch the 6N in South Africa.

Which is only relevant if you're suggesting that SA join the 6N AND stay in the QN.
As far as I'm aware, that's never been suggested.

As ever though, I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[ncurd]

I don't have access to SuperSport's TV rating data, but I would bet my house that Six Nations games don't rate as well as games involving the Springboks. So adding the Springboks brings in more viewers than currently watch the 6N in South Africa.

Yes but you that pot of money from the TN/RC games. For any of this to make sense SA need to make equal if not more money than they already do out of the RC. Then they have to by joining offer money to the current 6N teams as there isn't anymore money in their markets. That has also counteract the logistical nightmare as well their chances of winning and being able to promote their team and players through sponsorship deals.

It doesn't feel like something that happens unless both sides really want it to for reasons other than money because the money argument just doesn't add up.

 

[ncurd]

Which is only relevant if you're suggesting that SA joni the 6N AND stay in the QN.
As far as I'm aware, that's never been suggested.

I can't imaging World Rugby would allow it or any other nation. That paths leads to France/England etc. joining the Rugby Championship as well as 6 nations and eventually removing the world cup in favour of close shop of the top nations playing each other twice a year in mini-championships. It would be a colossal mess.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Yes but you that pot of money from the TN/RC games. For any of this to make sense SA need to make equal if not more money than they already do out of the RC. Then they have to by joining offer money to the current 6N teams as there isn't anymore money in their markets. That has also counteract the logistical nightmare as well their chances of winning and being able to promote their team and players through sponsorship deals.

It doesn't feel like something that happens unless both sides really want it to for reasons other than money because the money argument just doesn't add up.

A logistical nightmare is flying from JoBurg to Auckland and then to Buenos Aires. Flying overnight from Paris to South Africa and waking up in the exact same timezone is not a logistical nightmare.

American teams constantly play across the country with up to 3-hour timezone differences. Flying a few times a year to South Africa is not a big deal.

 

[ncurd]

A logistical nightmare is flying from JoBurg to Auckland and then to Buenos Aires. Flying overnight from Paris to South Africa and waking up in the exact same timezone is not a logistical nightmare.

American teams constantly play across the country with up to 3-hour timezone differences. Flying a few times a year to South Africa is not a big deal.

Yeah but your adding one to teams who currently don't have that problem. For money that probably doesn't exist.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

SA being included in the URC basically doubled the Pro 14 broadcasting rights worth.

6N's haven't exactly had it easy recently with sponsorships and tv rights etc.
TBF SA used to pull this move all the time but it's the first time I've heard it mentioned seriously since the SA teams joined the URC.

SA U20's should benefit if they are included in the U20's 6N's.

Guess would signal Japan and Fiji to join Rugby Champ which would be amazing.

 

[ChicagoKid]

SA being included in the URC basically doubled the Pro 14 broadcasting rights worth.

6N's haven't exactly had it easy recently with sponsorships and tv rights etc.
TBF SA used to pull this move all the time but it's the first time I've heard it mentioned seriously since the SA teams joined the URC.

SA U20's should benefit if they are included in the U20's 6N's.

Guess would signal Japan and Fiji to join Rugby Champ which would be amazing.

Japan to the Rugyby Championship is a done deal. That competition desperately needs a big TV/financial market.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

IMO it should be Spain and Portugal from a commercial pov but people would riot if not Georgia.

*nonchalantly whistles while sliding the molotov cocktails back under the bed*

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Japan to the Rugyby Championship is a done deal. That competition desperately needs a big TV/financial market.

It's not done yet - Marinos from Oz is on the record as saying Japanese inclusion is dependent on on-field performance against the other RC sides and that they don't want to admit a uncompetitive side. I imagine it is a discussion point in any RC negotiations, with SA probably not big on Japanese inclusion. Plus this nations league thing may be a 12 team closed shop which may remove pressure for incorporating Japan into another tournament.

I would say that SA replacement of Italy story came from the Daily Mail, which isn't a particularly reliable source. I can't see Italy being removed or volunteering to leave, despite the bizarre utterances of their coach.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Daily mail in terms of rugby news in England is the most reliable source

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I feel like the talk of Italy leaving is always Bedford and after England play them.... You're better than one team in the competition and want to kick them, why the self hurt guys?

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

IMO it should be Spain and Portugal from a commercial pov but people would riot if not Georgia.

it sucks that commercial realities are there for Georgia but they are there. Just say it's a Western European thing

I also think that players will push back on this as it will increase the amount of games they have to play in a year.

French and English clubs would also be ****** off as it would decrease the amount of games they have their top players for and increase the chance of injury.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

From?
And why is the claim that it will appear different this time to the previous however many?

don't you know, if people say there is money there is definitely money

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I feel like the talk of Italy leaving is always Bedford and after England play them.... You're better than one team in the competition and want to kick them, why the self hurt guys?

Bloody Bedford always wanting SA in the 6 nations, never liked that town.

I'll get my coat.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Bloody Bedford always wanting SA in the 6 nations, never liked that town.

I'll get my coat.

Nah, I ****** it. Well done