is Wayne Barnes a good ref or a totally useless one?

[Larksea]

[TABLE="class: tablestyle_4, align: center"]
<tbody>[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alain Rolland[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]53[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]26.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Steve Walsh[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]51[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]25.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Bryce Lawrence[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]39[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]24.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Jonathan Kaplan[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]47[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]23.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Craig Joubert[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]42[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]21.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Nigel Owens[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]41[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]20.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Alan Pearson[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]41[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]20.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]George Clancy[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]36[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]18.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 30%"]Wayne Barnes[/TD]
[TD="width: 40%"]33[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]16.5
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

EDIT: first list is total penalties and 2nd list is penalties per game

Interesting stats from the mid way point of the pool states in respect to Referees, and Barnes quite obviously sticks out on the bottom of the list by not giving away many penalties. kinda strange, I've seen games that Barnes has reffed where he's dominated the game with his whistle and others where he's put his whistle in his pocket and let the players sort it out.

I know as a kiwi I can't talk about Barnes without bringing up the 2007 quarter final between the All Blacks and France. Two things that come up alot from that game are obviously the sin binning of McAlister for a very minor offense and the obvious forward pass in leading to a french try. But less talked about is the fact that the entire 2nd half New Zealand weren't awarded a single penalty even though they spent large amounts of time on attack in french territory. And it's been said that refs have reviewed that half and found as many as 23 situations where NZ could/should have been awarded a penalty. It just seemed like Barnes had decided that he didn't want the game to be decided by a penalty so put his whistle away in the french red zone while the AB's were hot on attack. pretty much killing the tactic NZ used it tight games which was to gain field position and draw a penalty - in practice NZ did everything right but Barnes remained silent.

No surprise to me that already he's come under fire from the Welsh and the Scottish who believe poor performances from Barnes have influenced the result of their games.

I believe refs need to use the penalty to establish the rules and refs who ignore clear fouls create situations where upsets and controversial results are more likely to occur.

 

[Gavin]

I personally find Wayne Barnes to be a very good referee. I like his style and his interaction with the players; they seem to respect him very highly.

 

[Thingimubob]

Meh, has his good games then has his bad games. Wouldn't say he's anywhere near the best around, but is still a good international standard referee. I'd say he was poor during the Wales vs South Africa game, but us losing probably wasn't directly anything to do with him - we had the chances to win that match and didnt take them - simple as.

 

[JW.]

Every ref ignores a clear foul, feeding! + I'm really starting to hate the whole turning a blind eye to sealing off the rucks, it happens nearly every ruck the players bind on the person on the ground and just support there bodyweights on that person.

About Wayne Barnes, some seem to hate him can't see why though. Pretty bitter bringing up something from '07? That for me is a bad example.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

What do the stats in the original post signify - penalties per game and per half?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Barnes has been dire this World Cup ... made to many errors that have possibly affected the outcomes of games.

 

[monkeypigeon]

Every ref ignores a clear foul, feeding! + I'm really starting to hate the whole turning a blind eye to sealing off the rucks, it happens nearly every ruck the players bind on the person on the ground and just support there bodyweights on that person.

About Wayne Barnes, some seem to hate him can't see why though. Pretty bitter bringing up something from '07? That for me is a bad example.

Umhum. Generally I agree, but sometimes though there'll be no opposition in the ruck to engage with and all you can do is go over the ruck (effectively sealing it off).

A couple of years ago they used give that penalty all the time effectively making possession a disadvantage.

 

[NJR1]

He's one of the better ones for me, a million times better than Steve Walsh or Bryce Lawrence.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

my personal opinion is that all these refs are good refs, however they all seem to interpret rules differently. what's ok for a ref is not ok for another which is frustrating for players and fans alike.

 

[Tricia McMillan]

Barnes wasn't in the best position to see the angle of the forward pass in the quarterfinal against France. If we're going to blame anyone for it not being called I'd blame the touch judge, not Barnes.

There's always a little mini-game within games for the players to figure out how the particular referee interprets the rules, and what they can and cannot do, playing to the ref. That, I don't mind, as it's a part of the sport.

And no matter what, in the end of it, referees are human. Humans make the occasional mistake. It's life, and we just have to deal with it and move on. Not crowd around the referee and try to intimidate him like soccer players do.

 

[TNT88]

Hard to compare refs using a 2 game sample. Not much we can derive from it.

 

[Larksea]

Barnes wasn't in the best position to see the angle of the forward pass in the quarterfinal against France. If we're going to blame anyone for it not being called I'd blame the touch judge, not Barnes.

There's always a little mini-game within games for the players to figure out how the particular referee interprets the rules, and what they can and cannot do, playing to the ref. That, I don't mind, as it's a part of the sport.

And no matter what, in the end of it, referees are human. Humans make the occasional mistake. It's life, and we just have to deal with it and move on. Not crowd around the referee and try to intimidate him like soccer players do.

I have no problem with the forward pass, those things are part of rugby - though when two players are so close like they were it makes the forward pass so much easier to see which kinda makes it strange that none of the ref's saw it. But as per my post, the fact Barnes didn't penalize France the entire 2nd half was the most bizarre refereeing display I think I've ever seen.

Will be interesting to see the stats at the end of pool play as well. maybe get a comparison.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Those stats are utterly useless IMO... It depends on the teams playing, whether it's a free-flowing running game or a tight game where errors are to be kept to a minimal and the type of rugby each team plays in general, how they go about at ruck time, whether each team has a "fetcher" and so on...

having a low penalty count can sometimes also be a negative stat if the ref keeps on missing crucial infringements at ruck time like the Daylight rule for one, which the SH refs seem to blow up more than the NH teams...

 

[monkeypigeon]

Those stats are utterly useless IMO... It depends on the teams playing, whether it's a free-flowing running game or a tight game where errors are to be kept to a minimal and the type of rugby each team plays in general, how they go about at ruck time, whether each team has a "fetcher" and so on...

having a low penalty count can sometimes also be a negative stat if the ref keeps on missing crucial infringements at ruck time like the Daylight rule for one, which the SH refs seem to blow up more than the NH teams...

What's the 'Daylight Rule' for a non saffer?

 

[TRF_heineken]

What's the 'Daylight Rule' for a non saffer?

Seriously?

You don't know the daylight rule??

 

[monkeypigeon]

Seriously?

You don't know the daylight rule??

Sigh...not a hlepfull response.

I don't know if I know it untill you tell me what it is. That is why asked what rule you refer to.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Sigh...not a hlepfull response.

I don't know if I know it untill you tell me what it is. That is why asked what rule you refer to.

Daylight Rule is when the defending player makes a tackle, he must first release (this is where the daylight part comes in) before he can play the ball...

Daylight = Space between the tackled player and the tackler's arms

 

[monkeypigeon]

Daylight Rule is when the defending player makes a tackle, he must first release (this is where the daylight part comes in) before he can play the ball...

Daylight = Space between the tackled player and the tackler's arms

Ok. I've never heard that reffered to as the 'daylight rule'..untll now.

And yup. Some of the NH refs are rubbish at that. And another one that annoys me, they never enforce the rule about letting players get up when they jump on a loose-ball.

 

[Peat]

Every ref ignores a clear foul, feeding! + I'm really starting to hate the whole turning a blind eye to sealing off the rucks, it happens nearly every ruck the players bind on the person on the ground and just support there bodyweights on that person.

About Wayne Barnes, some seem to hate him can't see why though. Pretty bitter bringing up something from '07? That for me is a bad example.

Would you rather they whistled up everytime there was a hint of sealing and returned the game back to a game of kick-tennis? I'd rather see a few rules applied laxly and teams encouraged to attack rather than to apply the rules so that possession of the ball is dangerous.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ok. I've never heard that reffered to as the 'daylight rule'..untll now.

And yup. Some of the NH refs are rubbish at that. And another one that annoys me, they never enforce the rule about letting players get up when they jump on a loose-ball.

Listen the next time Craig Joubert officiates a game... he has this saying he always says when he pings someone for that: "Daylight please, you had no right"