Irish Provincial Structure

[Leonormous Boozer]

But the point is currently Leinster, due to 10 central contracts can afford to offer him say 100k. (Spitball finger in the air ). He can say yes or go abroad. Other provinces can't outbid. Because that would be mental wage inflation. But Munster spending same 100k on a saffer is losing the same player from the system. And spending money the system doesn't have

Is losing Deegan a negative though? He's probably not a starter in any province really. There's a few late bloomers but guys who don't make it at Leinster generally aren't points of differences. Certainly not the guys who move in their late 20s that a better import could be found for a cheaper price. If it was Sam Prendergast, I'd be worried but he's progressing nicely.

The CC system is for Irelands success and Leinster being the dominant side isn't detrimental to the national side, a lot of people say it's one the main strengths. Ultimately, that's the IRFU's primary concern.

Now, disillusionment of fans in other provinces will kill the game, Leinster can't fill out Lansdowne road at 100 bucks a ticket so I agree something has to be done to change the landscape of the game here. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor won't have the desired effect for anyone though, the IRFU needs to make a plan #fromthegroundup to build the other provinces and have them at a level where the CC system can be more equitable.

View attachment 19650

There, I have non-ironically fixed Munster rugby.

You got so close but just missed it. Building a road takes 30 years or so, it's too long. There is a road between Limerick and Galway. Do the obvious solution is to make Limerick Connacht. Hurling has provided a precedent whereby Galway are three time Leinster champions so it'll be fine.

Then Munster are based in Cork and have all of the development advantages.

 

[Groundhog]

What we actually need is to catch those little Stripe nerds and put them in a headlock until they front up a billion in cash to fund underfloor heated rugby pitches for their alma mater Castletroy college.

Imagine having fabulous wealth and not using it to create a new generation of muscly wonderboys.

Below is what the HPC would look like if our millionaires and billionaires cared about rugby

 

[munstermuffin]

No I do get that but Cork and surrounding areas is where the players are being produced right? Having players, S&C coaches and support staff etc.. based in Cork would help a lot in that case. I know for a fact that when Bryan Cullen was Leinster's S&C coach he worked with all of the top schools in Dublin, it was convenient and made sense.

It's something that Munster are likely missing out on now and is a gap to fill.

UCD wasn't just there for Leinster either, it was built gradually and is now a world class training facility.

Anyway, this is more of a reaction to criticisms of Leinster not owning a stadium / stadium expenses as an excuse for Munster. It was a choice, maybe the best one but not without negatives.



Deegan is probably at a point where a move abroad makes the most sense. He didn't make the breakthrough expected at Leinster, he's not on Irelands radar, any move to another province is a lateral one. If he stayed at Leinster and earned a start / bench spot, he'd likely make Ireland squads, he could start elsewhere in Ireland and not make it. I think that's the mindset of most Leinster guys with international aspirations.

As it stands for Deegan, if there's no Leinster contract, go cash in in France.

But it more the Limerick schools are catching up. Like we do have a team of coaches based in Cork. I'm not sure how it looks from the outside but the access is not an issue. Cork schools are ahead as they have a lot more funding but even they are not producing the top top guys. Like look at most the academy is West Cork or Tipperary. Limerick is catching up.
But you mention Bryan Cullen. A man I know well and is a superb coach. Like there a few differences. Again hurling is not an issue there. Lads who Bryan worked with are there solely to make it in rugby. Alot of schools lads here are playing elite hurling too and won't choose until 18/19.
Munster have world class facilities at UL and also top facilities at CIT too.
Like access to coaches is 100% not the issue. If it was lads would be slipping through the net. No player is being missed just they aren't great. Like an example would be like Tadhg Beirne with Leinster. He slipped through net and is big now. It rare if ever you see that with a Munster lad. It not that we aren't identifying guys more we just aren't producing. The AIL was our breeding patch in 90s and before but that has even diluted now that alot of older heads consider academies as weakening the provinces as opposed to old way.

As Sugary Tae says the CCs allow an extra amount spent on better quality while getting the top 25% of squad for free.
But looking at Munster I wouldn't say we lack facilities or are missing out on anyone. The academy is working it's just we don't have money pumped in to schools which means there is no comparison in foundations. Like outside the private Leinster schools not many could afford to have budgets of 200k a year and more for Schools rugby. Most here barely get 200k to run the school full stop

 

[sugary tae]

Is losing Deegan a negative though? He's probably not a starter in any province really. There's a few late bloomers but guys who don't make it at Leinster generally aren't points of differences. Certainly not the guys who move in their late 20s that a better import could be found for a cheaper price. If it was Sam Prendergast, I'd be worried but he's progressing nicely.

The CC system is for Irelands success and Leinster being the dominant side isn't detrimental to the national side, a lot of people say it's one the main strengths. Ultimately, that's the IRFU's primary concern.

Now, disillusionment of fans in other provinces will kill the game, Leinster can't fill out Lansdowne road at 100 bucks a ticket so I agree something has to be done to change the landscape of the game here. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor won't have the desired effect for anyone though,

But it doesn't have to be taking from the rich and giving to poor analogy. The reason this contract for Barrett has been met with so much disgust and rage is that under no circumstances is it needed! I've no issue with a 1-23 lads from Leinster winning season after season as they have been for a 15years. Fair bloody fücks. That's the level it's up to us to get there. But don't allow them buy a starting springbok and all black when the starting local players in both positions are are lions standard. And where there's enough youth players of quality. It just isn't needed.
Especially when any clued in supporter is aware of cuts across all the other provinces. Where the international captain is haggling over money from the irfu.

It's as frustrating as you seeing 36yrs old Ryan and archer being wheeled out in friendlies. Where we're consistently not throwing in young lads enough.

You scratch the surface with most Munster supporters and we're well aware of these issues.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But it doesn't have to be taking from the rich and giving to poor analogy. The reason this contract for Barrett has been met with so much disgust and rage is that under no circumstances is it needed! I've no issue with a 1-23 lads from Leinster winning season after season as they have been for a 15years. Fair bloody fücks. That's the level it's up to us to get there. But don't allow them buy a starting springbok and all black when the starting local players in both positions are are lions standard. And where there's enough youth players of quality. It just isn't needed.
Especially when any clued in supporter is aware of cuts across all the other provinces. Where the international captain is haggling over money from the irfu.

I get that to a degree. One of the IRFUs KPIs is European cups though, and we've consistently fallen short, lack of outside talent and not picking up certain types of players has fed into that.

I also don't think many would bat an eye if Leinster kept N'gatai on for the same amount of money, it's just the big names that has everyone in foul moods but every province has budget that goes to NIQs and Leinster have had less top class guys than most. To be honest I think you're closer to the issue when you make the point of Leinster being able to keep the likes of Harry Byrne etc.. on for longer than other provinces might be able to. But they can also point to the success of this in cases like Jimmy O'Brien and Hugo Keenan. Academy incentives is where I think you can even this all out and as mentioned before I don't think it needs to be equal across the provinces, weigh it in the other threes favour.

I think POM is a different issue also, possibly a learning from giving Earls a CC despite not being in the Ireland starting 23 for the last 18 months of his career. Definitely a timing issue in the World Cup cycle too, can't see Aki getting one in the next round of negotiations either for example and there's a decision to be made on Henshaw also.

Ruthless and pragmatic management is a good thing in my mind.

It's as frustrating as you seeing 36yrs old Ryan and archer being wheeled out in friendlies. Where we're consistently not throwing in young lads enough.

You scratch the surface with most Munster supporters and we're well aware of these issues.

To be honest I think Munster are doing well in recent years. You'll look back in a few years time and note that there were far fewer academy graduates in the years before Covid than after I reckon. Props will always be slower to come into the senior set up here.

 

[munstermuffin]

I get that to a degree. One of the IRFUs KPIs is European cups though, and we've consistently fallen short, lack of outside talent and not picking up certain types of players has fed into that.

I also don't think many would bat an eye if Leinster kept N'gatai on for the same amount of money, it's just the big names that has everyone in foul moods but every province has budget that goes to NIQs and Leinster have had less top class guys than most. To be honest I think you're closer to the issue when you make the point of Leinster being able to keep the likes of Harry Byrne etc.. on for longer than other provinces might be able to. But they can also point to the success of this in cases like Jimmy O'Brien and Hugo Keenan. Academy incentives is where I think you can even this all out and as mentioned before I don't think it needs to be equal across the provinces, weigh it in the other threes favour.

I think POM is a different issue also, possibly a learning from giving Earls a CC despite not being in the Ireland starting 23 for the last 18 months of his career. Definitely a timing issue in the World Cup cycle too, can't see Aki getting one in the next round of negotiations either for example and there's a decision to be made on Henshaw also.

Ruthless and pragmatic management is a good thing in my mind.


To be honest I think Munster are doing well in recent years. You'll look back in a few years time and note that there were far fewer academy graduates in the years before Covid than after I reckon. Props will always be slower to come into the senior set up here.

Just on the Harry Byrne comment. This is where the benefit of the CC happens. As all the money saved from top players is saved it allows the 2nd and 3rd choice guys to be paid in similar level to starters of other provinces.
That is how likes of Deegan, Ruddock, Harry B, Frawley and many more could stay on

 

[sugary tae]

I always ask the question was Ben Healy wedded to wearing tartan? If there was a decent living to be made as no 2 behind Crowley could he have stayed and fought it out ?

 

[munstermuffin]

I always ask the question was Ben Healy wedded to wearing tartan? If there was a decent living to be made as no 2 behind Crowley could he have stayed and fought it out ?

Ben was a different case. Ben was offered the moon and stars with Scotland and wanted to push on for international honours. Once he was Scottish the IRFU would not sanction a new deal.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Moved from Semi final thread from @munstermuffin :

But I see Leinster have been stopped from signing Tupou

This is an absolute disgrace and the IRFU need to do better to find struggling trophyless provinces imo.

 

[irisht]

Happy enough to just go with Healy as backup tighthead along with Clarkson and bringing through McGuire.

The crying about unfairness would be never ending if leinster signed an NIQ tighthead.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Happy enough to just go with Healy as backup tighthead along with Clarkson and bringing through McGuire.

The crying about unfairness would be never ending if leinster signed an NIQ tighthead.

Yeah I think it's fair the IRFU aren't allowing many NIQ props. A real potential problem area in the next few years.

Same with 9.

I like NIQs in positions where we have talent but maybe are a bit one dimensional in. Centre, wing, second row all come to mind.

 

[irisht]

Yeah I think it's fair the IRFU aren't allowing many NIQ props. A real potential problem area in the next few years.

there will be none in the provinces next season IIRC

 

[big ginger 8]

Would have been class to see Tupou in the Leinster environment, such a talented player that has struggled to maintain momentum.

Quite happy to convert Healy full-time with the looseheads we have coming through.

Clarkson hasn't quite been what I wanted due to his athletic limitations but he has taken some big steps with his scrummaging this year imo. Really hope McGuire can push through he's got rare size the position for us. Pity McCarthy seems to be viewed only as a loosehead at this level but it makes sense.

 

[irisht]

McCarthy is too skinny for a tighthead..


Some big prospects coming through at tighthead by all accounts, but will take time most likely.

 

[big ginger 8]

McCarthy is too skinny for a tighthead..
View attachment 19748

Some big prospects coming through at tighthead by all accounts, but will take time most likely.

Oh cool that one picture from a side angle after he's spent a year focusing on loosehead makes that clear.

He's listed as 3kg less than Clarkson at 20 years old and played tighthead to great success for most of his 20s career. Clearly he will be playing loosehead at senior level now, but suggesting he could have focused on tighthead does not require a snarky response.

 

[irisht]

I wasnt being snarky nor did I intend to. But okay.

 

[Groundhog]

I thought Tupou was pretty much a done deal! I think the IRFU probably read the room and said naaahhhh.

Healy can still do a job and can certainly still scrum to an international standard. He's really a case study in professionalism and how to treat your body for a long career.

On the topic of young players coming through we have had a pretty modest academy intake in recent years compared to other provinces, but I imagine we will have a pretty meaty one this year and next with a probably pretty good U19-U20s contingent. Notably some promising centres in O'Leary and O'Leary Kareem which will be a nice change.

 

[munstermuffin]

Moved from Semi final thread from @munstermuffin :



This is an absolute disgrace and the IRFU need to do better to find struggling trophyless provinces imo.

To be fair it the same as rest of us. It forces better development in the position.

Don't think it effects Leinster too much but supposedly a Humphreys call so I suppose this is a glimpse of how he will run it.

@Groundhog our current crop at 17s/18s have good prospects but still an imbalance in terms of position

On Paddy McCarthy isn't there huge hopes for him. Still very young and will fill out but has the technique good which is a big part

 

[irisht]

I thought Tupou was pretty much a done deal! I think the IRFU probably read the room and said naaahhhh.

Healy can still do a job and can certainly still scrum to an international standard. He's really a case study in professionalism and how to treat your body for a long career.

On the topic of young players coming through we have had a pretty modest academy intake in recent years compared to other provinces, but I imagine we will have a pretty meaty one this year and next with a probably pretty good U19-U20s contingent. Notably some promising centres in O'Leary and O'Leary Kareem which will be a nice change.

Isnt one o'leary still in school and one leaving?

assume o'leary and tom wood will join academy from school.

along with?
emmet calvey(prop)
danny sheahan(hooker)
luke murphy(BR)
sean Edogbo(BR)

 

[munstermuffin]

Isnt one o'leary still in school and one leaving?

assume o'leary and tom wood will join academy from school.

along with?
emmet calvey(prop)
danny sheahan(hooker)
luke murphy(BR)
sean Edogbo(BR)

Tom Wood probably a year later. High hopes too for Bill Hayes and Cian Walsh from that age