IRFU Player Contract Policy Agreed To Aid Development Of Irish-Qualified Players

[ranger]

Also, just because these players aren't in All Black contention doesn't mean their presence in NZ rugby wouldn't help the All Black cause...

 

[Peat]

Well, at the minimum, it guarentees that Nathan White (former captain of Waikato) and John Afoa (Former All Black) will be the only front row players from New Zealand to play for an Irish team (which is where quite a large potion of NZ talent go to play). It would mean that had this system been in place for years, we'd not have lost one of either Doug Howlett, Isa Nacewa or Jared Payne to an Irish team. It also means that we are unlikely to lose a different All Black like Toeava to an Irish team. It's not a huge safe-guard for New Zealand, however it does mean that in a position such as prop or 1st 5/8th (which takes years to develop good ones) we can keep more of them from Irish sides.

I don't think it's a good thing for Ireland however. Seems very silly not to just put a cap of a maximum of five NIQ players avalible to Irish teams, that way teams are able to choose where those players are most needed. It seems very difficult to leave it to clubs to choose which of their highly payed players have to be asked to leave.

Is it really such a large portion? I mean, yeah, Irish teams currently have Afoa/Payne/Howlett/Mafi/White and a few others (does Borlase deserve the label talent? Can Nacewa really count when he's internationally tied to Fiji). But Wales, England and France all have plenty of kiwis. At best, we're talking 25pc (I don't know how many worthwhile players go to Japan or Italy either), probably a fair bit lower, which doesn't strike me as a large portion.

Technically, Payne, Howlett and Nacewa could have all been on the books at the same time (no other wingers/fbs would be allowed, but Danielli's **** these days so no worries there), while Toevea to replace the elderly and nearly out of contract Howlett sounds like an excellent idea for Munster! As for props, there seems to be an Irish bias towards signing Saffas there anyway. Ok, there's Borlase (you don't seriously want him do you?) and Ah You, who will escape this by playing for Connacht.

I'm rambling, but basically the new system wouldn't have neccesarily prevented most of those players going to Ireland. It might have prevented a few but we're talking about one or two players not going to Ireland. I suppose that's preferable for NZ, but I wouldn't call it a brilliant outcome. Guess it all counts.

All the more kiwis for England I guess...

Also, just because these players aren't in All Black contention doesn't mean their presence in NZ rugby wouldn't help the All Black cause...

How so?

 

[Seaton]

It could help those in contention perform to a higher standard.

You know the 'one plays better when surrounded by better/ more experienced players'

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

From an English perspective i wish the premership would do the same, it might hurt the provenses a little bit but overall will make a much stronger Irish rugby group of players. The clubs can still have their go to foreign star but they will have an extra load of irish talent coming though.
With the best back row in europe, maybe they can devolp some more amazing talent.

 

[nickdnz]

Is it really such a large portion? I mean, yeah, Irish teams currently have Afoa/Payne/Howlett/Mafi/White and a few others (does Borlase deserve the label talent? Can Nacewa really count when he's internationally tied to Fiji). But Wales, England and France all have plenty of kiwis. At best, we're talking 25pc (I don't know how many worthwhile players go to Japan or Italy either), probably a fair bit lower, which doesn't strike me as a large portion.

Technically, Payne, Howlett and Nacewa could have all been on the books at the same time (no other wingers/fbs would be allowed, but Danielli's **** these days so no worries there), while Toevea to replace the elderly and nearly out of contract Howlett sounds like an excellent idea for Munster! As for props, there seems to be an Irish bias towards signing Saffas there anyway. Ok, there's Borlase (you don't seriously want him do you?) and Ah You, who will escape this by playing for Connacht.

I'm rambling, but basically the new system wouldn't have neccesarily prevented most of those players going to Ireland. It might have prevented a few but we're talking about one or two players not going to Ireland. I suppose that's preferable for NZ, but I wouldn't call it a brilliant outcome. Guess it all counts.

All the more kiwis for England I guess...
How so?

To answer your question Payne, Howlett, Nacewa and Afoa are all world class. Now while Nacewa can't play for the All Blacks, he was still a world class player for Auckland and the Blues (yes, we have a domestic system too, in which we value talent there). As for Howlett, Afoa and Payne, imagine if Ireland didn't have Bowe, Kearney and Ross avalible to them anymore? Would they suffer? Probably. And even with players like White (Borlase wasn't really a starter at NPC level, so fine), he's an experienced player which our props in New Zealand can learn off. So many of our experienced players are just taken away, which always hurts our depth (and despite it being alot deeper than Ireland's, it's still not infinite). Imagine if we had Christian Cullen for another four years? He was only 26 when he left and despite a knee injury which was problematic, he would have probably got more tests and added countless experience to up and coming fullbacks.

Lord Hope hit the nail on the head. The better the competition the less you get complacency. Obviously Ireland isn't soley responsible for players leaving, it's a professional setup and Ireland have every right to bid on a player and are only one of several to do so. I'm just not too upset that the All Blacks may keep the future Doug Howlett's, Afoa's and Jared Payne's for a bit longer.

 

[Peat]

From an English perspective i wish the premership would do the same, it might hurt the provenses a little bit but overall will make a much stronger Irish rugby group of players. The clubs can still have their go to foreign star but they will have an extra load of irish talent coming though.
With the best back row in europe, maybe they can devolp some more amazing talent.

Alternately, forced to rely on mediocre players to fill key positions (such as, say, prop) because they don't have enough IQ players in certain positions, their provinces' lofty status drops, gates drop, less money means weaker teams, interest starts to wane again, and the IRFU are left frantically backpedalling as they watch numbers at the new Lansdowne plummet.

Slightly alarmist I'll admit, but far from inconceivable.

edit edit: Then again, it could result in the evasion of the current Irish TH fiasco... or possibly not. It is very hard to call, and as a result, I believe the IRFU should have implemented a more flexible plan.

A really cynical person might suggest that the provinces being a wee bit less succesful might please some blazers at the IRFU.

edit: Nick, the players you mention would be in All Black contention, so of course they'd be great players for you to keep! Of course you'd have rather kept Afoa and Payne. But my question to ranger was about those not in All Black contention i.e. those not good enough.

However, we're now quibbling over fine detail, so I'm going to drop it there.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The consequences of this could spell disaster for Connacht. For example, if Leinster or Munster can't re-sign Heinke van der Merwe or Wian Du Preez and they don't like their Irish backups, you can be damn sure that they'll give Brett Wilkinson a call. Likewise Gavin Duffy, Tiernan O'Halloran, Eoin Griffin, David McSharry, Mike McCarthy and John Muldoon will be very attractive to the other provinces if they've to fill out their squads.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Well, at the minimum, it guarentees that Nathan White (former captain of Waikato) and John Afoa (Former All Black) will be the only front row players from New Zealand to play for an Irish team (which is where quite a large potion of NZ talent go to play). It would mean that had this system been in place for years, we'd not have lost one of either Doug Howlett, Isa Nacewa or Jared Payne to an Irish team. It also means that we are unlikely to lose a different All Black like Toeava to an Irish team. It's not a huge safe-guard for New Zealand, however it does mean that in a position such as prop or 1st 5/8th (which takes years to develop good ones) we can keep more of them from Irish sides.

I don't think it's a good thing for Ireland however. Seems very silly not to just put a cap of a maximum of five NIQ players avalible to Irish teams, that way teams are able to choose where those players are most needed. It seems very difficult to leave it to clubs to choose which of their highly payed players have to be asked to leave.

See the example here probably wouldn't apply. Nacewa was originally signed as a 12 if I remember correctly, Payne as a wing and Howlett as a wing. They all could have signed and it would have been grand. If Howlett was listed as an 11, Payne as a 14 and Nacewa as 15 they could all still be re-signed I assume. It just means that there's gonna be a lot more bull when it comes to signing players.

 

[Peat]

Payne was signed as a full-back, not that this invalidates your conclusions.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Payne was signed as a full-back, not that this invalidates your conclusions.

Nacewa was signed as a centre/outhalf, so not really

 

[profitius]

What is NZ's attitude to foreign players? I'm sure they're strict enough?

Nacewa was signed as a centre/outhalf, so not really

Yes indeed!

Sexton was behind himself and Contepomi in the Leinster team. They also resigned David Holwell as cover for a period ahead of Sexton so it was obvious Michael Cheika didn't fancy Sexton at the time. Sexton admitted after the 09 HEC win that he considered quitting Leinster!

Now, imagine the IRFU looking at that. Sexton was a better 10 than Contepomi and Nacewa but didn't get the opportunity to show it. That was crazy.

 

[profitius]

I dunno, reading the article tells me the stuff about the contract only comes into play for 2013-2014.

I expect the provinces to sign any players they like on big, fat and long contracts before the 'cut-off' date.

My opinion of this move by the IRFU? I think they have got some thick tinted specs on, and think that their teams will be able to perform to the same level without their foreign players.

The IRFU are getting plenty of criticism but I think they're right and they've a great track record. Remember that Ireland lost every game to Scotland in the 90's. The IRFU decided to take radical action but creating the provinces and bringing home Irish players from England (most top Irish players were playing in England) at great cost. It was a masterstroke by the IRFU.

Now they want the national team to be one of the best in the world and not go into another world cup with a shortage in certain positions. So its a fairly radical plan but thats what you need sometimes.

The new rules won't make any difference to the provinces. Its 2 years away and theres enough players coming through underage systems now to have 3 all Irish teams that would be competitive in the HEC. Add in 15 foreign players between the 3 provinces (a whole team of players still) to strengthen the squads and you still have strong teams. The IRFU have looked at the numbers before deciding on the new rules.

 

[big ginger 8]

You can still have the 5 foreign players in the squad just on respective matchdays can't start ones that are signed for the same position. Or at least thats my understanding and you won't be able to list players as "utility backs" they must be listed in specific positions.

Trying to think of who the development players are please correct me if I'm wrong;
Leinster: Strauss
Munster: Borlase
Connacht: Ah You
Ulster: Payne (not sure at all about that one)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

What is NZ's attitude to foreign players? I'm sure they're strict enough?



Yes indeed!

Sexton was behind himself and Contepomi in the Leinster team. They also resigned David Holwell as cover for a period ahead of Sexton so it was obvious Michael Cheika didn't fancy Sexton at the time. Sexton admitted after the 09 HEC win that he considered quitting Leinster!

Now, imagine the IRFU looking at that. Sexton was a better 10 than Contepomi and Nacewa but didn't get the opportunity to show it. That was crazy.

Really? I thought I remember Sexton getting a lot of matches at the start of that season with Cheika playing Contipomi 12 and Nacewa on the bench because he wasn't playing well at out half, he started very well but then went through a spell of particularly poor form and lost his place. He only really stepped up to the top level in the HEC 1/2 final where Holwell was gone, Nacewa was Full Back and Contipomi got injured.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

For all the stick England get about foreign players, at least we don't sign Project Players.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk

 

[welshglory]

The only reason i would look at the NZ/AUS model is the success of their national teams. Otherwise they're financial disasters.

 

[Feicarsinn]

What is NZ's attitude to foreign players? I'm sure they're strict enough?



Yes indeed!

Sexton was behind himself and Contepomi in the Leinster team. They also resigned David Holwell as cover for a period ahead of Sexton so it was obvious Michael Cheika didn't fancy Sexton at the time. Sexton admitted after the 09 HEC win that he considered quitting Leinster!

Now, imagine the IRFU looking at that. Sexton was a better 10 than Contepomi and Nacewa but didn't get the opportunity to show it. That was crazy.

In fairness, Sexton had seen a lot of rugby the season before, but had been right off the ball in 09. Still I guess things turned out ok for him in the end.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Indeed. I don't think Contepomi was the problem for Sexton. As has been said, he was quite poor for Leinster for much of the 08/09 season but he was a star performer in 07/08. In my opinion Sexton is somebody who needs to feel he's the undisputed number 1 choice at his position in order to get the best out of him. He thrives on knowing that he calls the shots come what may. For Leinster before Contepomi's injury and for Ireland now, he never had that luxury.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The Irish Independent has an article today questioning the legality of the new proposal:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/irfu-may-be-forced-into-policy-uturn-2995108.html

In general Hugh Farrelly in the Independent has been the main cheerleader behind this proposal as opposed to the blanket negativity in the Irish Times and Examiner. I found this argument he makes quite curious though:

This week's Ireland squad announcements underlined the need for such a move, with the lack of experienced props the primary concern. While senior props Mike Ross, Cian Healy (both Leinster) and Tom Court (Ulster) have been starting regularly for their provinces, Ireland coach Declan Kidney had to turn to two props, Stephen Archer and Ronan Loughney, for his Wolfhounds squad who have not been guaranteed starters with Munster and Connacht.

He hasn't had to turn to Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer. Looking at facts:

1. Archer has a grand total of 5 starts and 4 sub appearances this season. He's totalled 1 Heineken Cup sub appearance this season.
2. Loughney has split his, admittedly significant, gametime between loosehead and tighthead prop. He's an okay loosehead and poor tighthead in my opinion.
3. Jamie Hagan who's often criticised for moving to Leinster has 7 starts and 3 sub appearances for Leinster in the Pro 12 and gets his first Heineken Cup start this season.
4. Tony Buckley and John Andress are starting pretty regularly for Sale and Exeter respectively in the Premiership and Amlin Cup.
5. 22 year old Adam Macklin has 16 appearances for Ulster this season.
6. Jerry Cronin, Declan Fitzpatrick and Stewart Maguire are three more Irish tightheads with a fair whack of action this season.
7. Technically both Rodney Ah You and Nathan White can play for Ireland in the future.

Why couldn't Kidney consider Tony Buckley for a return to the international setup? Why are Jamie Hagan's 460 minutes at tighthead less valuable than Archer's 400 minutes?

I've no problem with Farrelly's stance and think a lot of the criticism he receives on sites like LF.com is ill founded. What I do have a problem with is him not researching his facts before making incorrect statements. Declan Kidney has plenty of options to play at 3. What we need are better quality coaches who can develop a tightheads skills better. These proposals don't provide for better coaching, merely for more gametime which as I've outlined above isn't really an issue.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads was talking to a Munster coach to get the exact definition of this and well here is my best to explain exact terms of it.
- Connacht aren't in this deal at all to start.
- Ok 15 NIQ spots between Munster, Leinster and Ulster from 1-15 (5 slots each)
- Basically if Munster have a 3 ie Botha the Ulster can't have Afoa. However IF Botha retired/left Munster CAN'T sign another 3 and must trade that NIQ spot for another number. So basically when you sign a NIQ player it's not just to be in the team performing well but to also improve youngsters in team in that position because they the guys that have to fill that position when the NIQ left.

So to try explain it clearer - For example Ulster let Botha go and signed Afoa. If this was new rule Ulster let NIQ 3 (Botha) go and can't sign Afoa but must trade NIQ 3 with an NIQ # from Munster/Leinster