Ireland's Propping crisis at tipping point.

[Feicarsinn]

Saturday saw the end of the domestic season for the four Irish provinces with the conclusion of the Rabo Pro 12, in which Leinster went down to a Shane Williams-inspired Ospreys in what must be one of the games of the season. Despite that result, it's been an excellent season for the provinces with Leinster retaining their European champions status, Ulster reaching the final for the first time since 1999, and Connacht participating in their first ever Heineken cup. No doubt the victory of Quins will live long in the memory out West. Munster, by contrast, has a somewhat indifferent year by their own lofty standards, yet their undefeated progress through the group stages, coupled with reaching a Celtic League semi-final, makes it a respectable, if not awe inspiring year.

With all of that out of the way, Irish rugby can now turn its attention to the upcoming tour of New Zealand. To sum up the situation, we're screwed. With the likes of Stephen Ferris and Paul O'Connell unlikely to tour after gruelling seasons in which injury has been a near constant companion, Ireland needed to have all other hands on deck so as to stand a good chance of competing with the newly crowned world champions, however we've encountered something of a propping crisis over the last few weeks. Ulster loosehead Tom Court is ruled out of the tour with a broken tumb and in aftermath of Leinster's loss on the weekend it appears that Mike Ross may be unable to tour, having torn part of his hamstring. This is bad.

Ireland's propping issues are pretty well known. We have about 3 proven international props at best and with two of them now potentially out, it could be a very long tour for the Irish pack. At loosehead prop we're still blessed with having an excellent player in Cian Healy. Immense in open field and a passable scrummager, Healy will be likely to start every test. Going off the Barbarians game it appears that his back up will be Brett Wilkinson of Connacht, a naturalised South African. Wilkinson is by no means a bad player, but an international standard prop he isn't, however all things considered we could do worse. The tighthead side presents a far greater challenge to the Irish selection panel.

Since Mike Ross came to the attention of the Irish media way back in 2010 he's been the first name on the team sheet. Not because he's an amazing scrummager, but due to the sheer lack of other options. At that time John Hayes had reached the point where he could no longer lock a scrum (not a slight against the man, he was about a bazillion at the time) and the ineptitude of Tony Buckley was becoming something of a national embarrassment. Step forward Mike Ross and all of a sudden there's some credibility to the Irish front row again. However there's been a distinct lack of progress in making sure we don't end up in a similar situation again and lo and behold, here we are. If Ross can't tour, it's likely that Ulster's Declan Fitzpatrick will start in the 3 shirt. A passable scrummager who contributes little in open play, Fitzpatrick has had a horrendous time with injury over the past few seasons and is very much second choice up at Ulster behind John Afoa. A decent hour against a poor Edinburgh front row in the Heineken Cup semi-final will provide some hope that he could lock the scrum should he be called upon and were he able to do that for an hour, I'd be bloody delighted. He'll start against the Barbarians on Tuesday, so we may perhaps have a better grasp of his strengths and weaknesses after that.

Fitzpatrick is, in my opinion, only an option for about 60 minutes however, meaning we'll need to find another tighthead to sit on the bench. It looks like it'll be Ronan Loughney at the moment, which is a thought that's fit to give the Irish fan many sleepless nights. There's Stephen Archer too, a man who's played for Ireland A, despite not being worthy of a professional contract. Jamie Hagan would be the most logical choice, having been a starter for 2 seasons for Connacht, but his failure to break into the Leinster 23 ahead of Nathan White this season is certainly a blemish on his record. Then there's the possibility that Kidney could break with character entirely and pick Michael Bent, Taranaki and Hurricanes prop who can cover both sides of the scrum and has recently declared that he wants to play for Ireland, moving to Leinster after the completion of the ITM cup. Word has it that Bent is a very good scrummager if nothing else, and would have picked up more Super Rugby caps were it not for a falling out with the current Hurricanes management. While the idea of picking a player to play for Ireland before he's ever set foot in the country is somewhat repugnant, despite teams and all that jazz. But it's unlikely to happen of course.

To surmise, things are not going to go well when we make the long trip to New Zealand. However, let's be hopeful that someone steps up to the plate over the three tests and we can finally have another option at 3. But unless Deccie Fitz improves an awful lot, I don't see it happening.

Oh well, we could always recall Buckle

Back to Blog

 

[psychic duck]

is John Andress a credible option?

he's by no account amazing at all, and seems a bit of a journeyman in England playing for Exeter (where he was in the Championship Dream Team one season), Harlequins, Exeter again, and Worcester next season, but has largely been a reserve for Premiership teams

not saying he's good, but could be a better option than Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer

 

[racingmetrofan]

What about Tim Ryan? Played 3 for Toulon and NEwcastle (dunno how often though) and now is playing in Italy for Prato - when and why he went is rather unclear.

 

[munstermuffin]

What about Tim Ryan? Played 3 for Toulon and NEwcastle (dunno how often though) and now is playing in Italy for Prato - when and why he went is rather unclear.

The 2 Ryans Tim and his brother Dave just aren't good enough and only playing at a very poor level in Italy

 

[Feicarsinn]

is John Andress a credible option?

he's by no account amazing at all, and seems a bit of a journeyman in England playing for Exeter (where he was in the Championship Dream Team one season), Harlequins, Exeter again, and Worcester next season, but has largely been a reserve for Premiership teams

not saying he's good, but could be a better option than Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer

Andress is suffering in the same way that Ross did with regard to playing in England. Whether it be the IRFU or just national team management, it seems that if you're playing abroad, you're not going to get a shot with Ireland. There was some talk of him going to Munster earlier in the season if I recall correctly, but that eventually petered out. The fact that he hasn't really been explored as an option as of yet is a bit shambolic.

What about Tim Ryan? Played 3 for Toulon and NEwcastle (dunno how often though) and now is playing in Italy for Prato - when and why he went is rather unclear

Timmy Ryan was essentially a less capable version of Tony Buckley. 6'4 is too tall to be an effective tighthead imo, and he's no exception to that rule. I'm sure Newcastle fans have less than fond memories of him.

 

[psychic duck]

Timmy Ryan was essentially a less capable version of Tony Buckley. 6'4 is too tall to be an effective tighthead imo, and he's no exception to that rule. I'm sure Newcastle fans have less than fond memories of him.

Tim Ryan signed for Newcastle as first choice prop at the start of last season, however after this (in October) he was dropped only played one match all season

I know Northampton have a good scrum but if you're getting demolished quite like that, then he would have no chance against the likes of Wales, Argentina, England, New Zealand, South Africa or France

out of interest, his brother Dave Ryan who is also playing club rugby in Italy, was named in the USA squad for June, so if he's qualified for them then Tim Ryan might be too

 

[Peat]

In defence of Deccie Fitz - that was an all international Scottish front row that he made look poor and there's no shame in being behind John "Probably most impressive overall tighthead in Europe this season" Afoa.

I mean, he's going to get reamed, but his domestic achievements are greater than you say.

The ignorance of Andress is just idiotic at this juncture. Up there with playing Stephen Archer in the first place. There's a lot of players who deserve mentions ahead of Archer, such as O'Connell and Macklin.

Finally - are you absolutely certain Healy will be fine to go? I thought there was doubt over him.

 

[munstermuffin]

Cian Healy will be perfect.

 

[Feicarsinn]

In defence of Deccie Fitz - that was an all international Scottish front row that he made look poor and there's no shame in being behind John "Probably most impressive overall tighthead in Europe this season" Afoa.

I mean, he's going to get reamed, but his domestic achievements are greater than you say.

The ignorance of Andress is just idiotic at this juncture. Up there with playing Stephen Archer in the first place. There's a lot of players who deserve mentions ahead of Archer, such as O'Connell and Macklin.

Finally - are you absolutely certain Healy will be fine to go? I thought there was doubt over him.

Don't get me wrong, I think Fitzpatrick is the best option out of the possible candidates, but I still think we're up **** creek. He's a good Rabo player and can do a job against most teams in the HC, but this is the All Blacks we're talking about. It's a step too far imo.

Healy should be fine. He was 50/50 for the weekend's game and failed the last minute fitness test. Given another week or two and I'd imagine he'll be right as rain.

 

[coonor]

Great blog post Feic!

Even if this tour can identify a prop with the potential to become international class it would be a great success as they could be targeted and developed accordingly so. My bet is Fitzpatrick will show the greatest potential, if that is the case then he must be puts through the system and come November must be ready for a bench position.

 

[Peat]

Ah good/a shame. I'll be honest, the potential injury list had reached such huge proportions I kinda wanted to see just how bad it would get... but yeah. Healy/Fitzpatrick might escape with their lives. Wilkinson/Fitzpatrick... uhm...

Tbh, I'd be more worried about the fact that Deccie Fitz will be breathing through his arsehole after his thirty minutes than technical ability here.

edit: Not that I wouldn't be worried about the latter. The former is a bigger issue though, what with him having played about 240 minutes of rugby this year...

 

[Feicarsinn]

Tbh, I'd be more worried about the fact that Deccie Fitz will be breathing through his arsehole after his thirty minutes than technical ability here.

edit: Not that I wouldn't be worried about the latter. The former is a bigger issue though, what with him having played about 240 minutes of rugby this year...

It's certainly a concern. If he could give an hour of solid scrums and contribute absolutely nothing else I'd be happy enough. Odds are we will probably only get a half out of him, which leaves us in a bit of a bind. Personally I'd like to see the TH role split between himself and Hagan, who managed to not shame himself altogether against a pretty good Montpellier unit earlier in the year.

 

[psychic duck]

It's certainly a concern. If he could give an hour of solid scrums and contribute absolutely nothing else I'd be happy enough. Odds are we will probably only get a half out of him, which leaves us in a bit of a bind. Personally I'd like to see the TH role split between himself and Hagan, who managed to not shame himself altogether against a pretty good Montpellier unit earlier in the year.

I agree about Hagan, but a problem is that Kidney seems to have Loughney and Archer ahead of him, they were both selected in the Wolfhounds instead of him this year

 

[SelimNiai]

Surely the Propping crisis should be at "dropping" point, or "boring in point"

 

[Feicarsinn]

Ah shove it up your arse.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I don't understand where John Andress has built his reputation. His number of starts in the Premiership have dropped from 14 to 6 to 4 over the last three seasons. His number of appearances have dropped from 19 to 7 to 6 over the same period. Worcester and Exeter aren't exactly powerhouses so I don't see how he can be a viable international option.

There's no hiding from it, Ireland are royally screwed in the scrum if both Mike Ross and Tom Court are out. Declan Fitzpatrick is the backup TH by default. If he can put in three credible 60 minute performances on tour, that would be more than good enough. If Ronan Loughney is called up, God help Ireland. You can't polish a turd and both Loughney and Stephen Archer are turds.

Assuming Mike Ross will miss the tour, I'd start Cian Healy and Declan Fitzpatrick. The bench option is tricky. Fitzpatrick isn't fit enough to last 80 minutes so a player who is primarily a TH must be on the bench. That rules out Brett Wilkinson (although Wilkinson becomes an option when 23 man squads are introduced). Archer and Loughney are appalling excuses of players so that leaves two options, one extremely unpalatable. Tony Buckle is the break glass in case of emergency option. Michael Bent hasn't set foot in Ireland and is a shameless poach but if he can lock either side of the scrum for 20-30 minutes a game, he becomes a credible option.

Longer term, I think Ireland are fine. Jamie Hagan's career has stalled but after one season getting used to the Leinster system, he should get better. Martin Moore is a squat tighthead who could go on to be a Leinster regular while Tadhg Furlong is an exceptional prospect though it's probably three or so seasons before he'll ebe pushing strongly. Edward Byrne is a more disciplined version of Cian Healy who should have a long international career although that's also three or four seasons down the line. In Ulster, Adam Macklin has the makings of a decent 10-20 cap player. Munster and Connacht are screwd though.

 

[coonor]

Unfortunately it's just going to be a waiting game in the prop department. In the long term we look to have some decent prospect who hopefully will have broken onto the scene by the next world cup however until then it's pretty much making use of what we've got and in reality that's not a lot at the moment. Hopefully Bent turns out to be a good purchase, Fitzpatrick continues his development and Hagan actually gets to play some games!

 

[Aedaphon]

So the question is who will take the bigger battering- Aus against the mighty Hair Bear himself or Ireland against Franks.

Either way it looks like the Northern Hemisphere could take an absolute mincing.

 

[Darwin]

Great write up Feicarsinn! I really enjoy these sort of blogs, as my knowledge of specific Northern Hemisphere players is limited (at best!).

I do have some bad news for Irish posters who are hoping that Michael Bent will be their savior.... he is not any good. He is an ok scrummager at ITM Cup level, and can play on both sides of the scrum, but that is about it. He is currently probably the 5th choice prop at the Hurricanes - a team that has one of the poorest scrums in the competition. He is currently stuck behind Ben May (a solid Super Rugby prop - about the same level as Nathan White), two young Super Rugby rookies in Jeff Toomaga-Allen (who hasn't even played ITM Cup rugby) and Reggie Goodes, and another journeyman ITM Cup player (Tristan Moran). To me he is a fringe Super Rugby player (4th/5th choice prop) at best. He reminds me in many ways of Peter Borlase..... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

 

[coonor]

Great write up Feicarsinn! I really enjoy these sort of blogs, as my knowledge of specific Northern Hemisphere players is limited (at best!).

I do have some bad news for Irish posters who are hoping that Michael Bent will be their savior.... he is not any good. He is an ok scrummager at ITM Cup level, and can play on both sides of the scrum, but that is about it. He is currently probably the 5th choice prop at the Hurricanes - a team that has one of the poorest scrums in the competition. He is currently stuck behind Ben May (a solid Super Rugby prop - about the same level as Nathan White), two young Super Rugby rookies in Jeff Toomaga-Allen (who hasn't even played ITM Cup rugby) and Reggie Goodes, and another journeyman ITM Cup player (Tristan Moran). To me he is a fringe Super Rugby player (4th/5th choice prop) at best. He reminds me in many ways of Peter Borlase..... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

That could be worrying for Leinster aswell, hopefully under Feeks coaching and some experience he will improve but if not its time for Hagan to step up and to be honest Hagan is far from a poor back up option.