IRB mismanagement of the beautiful game.

rugbyfisher · Oct 16, 2011

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> In the aftermath of yesterdayâ€™s semi-final perhaps it is time to reflect on the IRB management of match officials. I hope that the IRB will not take a defensive aloof position regarding criticism about mismanagement. For the future of the game the rugby public deserve better. I believe the IRB have employed a cavalier attitude in their selection of the match officials and have failed to properly apply appropriate neutrality measures. Their lack in this aspect does a disservice to the officials themselves and fuels the conspiracy theorists which spreads dissatisfaction amongst supporters. Perhaps it is time for them to utilise the Wales France semi final and the Sam Warburton incident to reflect upon their management and selection of match officials.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] Taking the Wales and France game, the selection of Mr. ROLAND was madness as the dissatisfied may not only suggest that he have been aggrieved that Wales had knocked out his home country in the quarter final, but he is half French. This selection was undertaken when Mr. KAPLAN was running the line, a referee whose home country was out of the competition and as such would have been neutral to every observer.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] The pressure the IRB have placed upon Mr ROLAND is sadly likely to remain with him for the rest of his career. This is grossly unfair as the Referees job is unenviable. Unfortunately, now for Mr. ROLAND whenever he officiates upon a Welsh or French match either on the International stage or within a European competition his every decision will come under the greatest scrutiny. Worse than that as a human being he is bound to be under internalised pressure.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] Other examples of poor official selections within this World Cup exist:
1.the selection Bryce Lawrence (NZL) to officiate in the South African Australia quarter final when NZ were a probable future opponent. As it was Mr. LAWRENCE had an appalling game missing much that was in South African favour. A northern hemisphere ref would take all the sting out of the conspiracy theorists.. Or

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] 2. the questionable decision to select French and Welsh touch judges in the NZ v Oz semi final when either Wales or France would have been the opponents in the final.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] The rugby paying public need the IRB to ensure that the highest level of official integrity is maintained and that the pressure of allegations of bias is removed from those officiating. This could surely be easily achieved by a applying a simple foreseeability neutrality test, sounds complicated, but is so so simple and the lack of applying such an ethical policy will leave an unnecessary bad taste in what has been an excellent World cup.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] To ensure that the rugby paying public do not feel aggrieved by perverse red card decisions, do on field officials need the red card sanction. To err is human and officials are no different. A perverse red card mistake means so much in this world of international rugby and is it required? Much pressure would be taken off match officials if they were simply to give a yellow card and allow the citation committee to utilise the ten minutes to determine whether the incident was deserving of a red card. This would surely allow for a fairer more consistent unbiased decision making process, protect those officiating and ultimately the enjoyment of the game being marred by poor spur of the moment
decision making.

Sam Owen · Oct 16, 2011

I also heard speculations of a Welsh member of the IRB selecting Nigel Owens to referee the South Africa vs Samoa pool game. I dont know if this is true but if it is, that would be another inconsiderate no brainer from the IRB.

TRF_Olyy · Oct 16, 2011

Sam Owen said:
I also heard speculations of a Welsh member of the IRB selecting Nigel Owens to referee the South Africa vs Samoa pool game. I dont know if this is true but if it is, that would be another inconsiderate no brainer from the IRB.

It's not, that was just more BS spewed by Eliota.

Referees are/were picked by a board of a number of people, one of whom happened to be Welsh.

Sam Owen · Oct 16, 2011

TRF_Olyy said:
It's not, that was just more BS spewed by Eliota.

Referees are/were picked by a board of a number of people, one of whom happened to be Welsh.

Oh ok, thats good thats finally cleared up.

Gavin · Oct 16, 2011

Why can't some Welsh supports admit that they lost? If the kickers had kicked their goals then they would have won, but they didn't so it's their fault. It is not Rolland's fault because he applied the law correctly. Also in relation to Rolland being half French, if Welsh supporters believe players like Faletau etc. (can't remember the rest) are Welsh, even though they were born in another country, then surely Rolland must be considered Irish as he was born in Ireland.

Jonathan Davies born in England, Toby Faletau born in Tonga, Dan Lydiate born in England, Luke Charteris born in England (just remembered them).

Please don't let us rugby fans turn into football fans in how we show ourselves to the public.

TNT88 · Oct 16, 2011

The OP is by far one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

Anyone who believes that stuff doesn't actually want better referees, they just want something to whinge about and propose solutions without considering the ACTUAL REAL LIFE consequences of those solutions. All your ideas will completely go against the ultimate goal of better refereeing.

I love the lengths some people will go to just to convince themselves (and others) Warburton shouldn't have been sent off.

rugbyfisher · Oct 16, 2011

Gavin said:
Why can't some Welsh supports admit that they lost?

Please don't let us rugby fans turn into football fans in how we show ourselves to the public.

I think you missed the point, I happen to be Welsh and was disappointed we lost the game but as you say we lost the game because we failed in our kicking. The issue of selecting neutral officials is bigger than that as it will stop unnecessary bleating and berating of officials.

Me 1 · Oct 16, 2011

I think refs should not be able to ref a match within which a country is playing which they would be eligible for (if they were a player). Example. Rolland not refing France, Walsh not refing New Zealand etc. I'm not saying they would intentionally be biased but it's likely 50-50 calls would go the way of France if it was Rolland etc. I know he's Irish first and foremost but likely feels a little loyalty for France.

TNT88 · Oct 16, 2011

rugbyfisher said:
I think you missed the point, I happen to be Welsh and was disappointed we lost the game but as you say we lost the game because we failed in our kicking. The issue of selecting neutral officials is bigger than that as it will stop unnecessary bleating and berating of officials.

Referees are neutral, all those guys are perfectly capable of refereeing their own country in a test match without bias. They don't "go" for anyone. You need a bit of perspective. If you want better refs than Bryce Lawrence reffing a quarter final, then you should have let Joubert ref the game. He'd do a much better job... But NOOOO conspiracy theorists think he has a bias!

Also, in what parallel universe can citing commissions make a decision in 10 minutes? These things take anywhere from hours - to days. Try actually reading some judicial reports: http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/05/12/01/110920jodecision-dominikowaqaniburotu(fiji)10.4(j).pdf

Lastly, if you think people will stop complaining about referees when your new rules are brought in, keep dreaming... The same people who want these changes will continue to whinge like there is no tomorrow and proceed to propose more stupid rules to fix their new found non-issues with referees.

The argument being presented can basically be summed up as:

1. The refs are bias because I say so.
2. I will complain about it.
3. The IRB should implement new rules to give people like myself no reason to complain about referees.

rugbyfisher · Oct 16, 2011

reply to Tnt88

Well TNT88 you really don't appear to understand the argument. I did not say that refs are biassed I actually said they are human. The issue is that they must be seen to be free from bias and this isn't too hard to achieve. You appear to believe everything his fine with the management of the game. With regards your attack on using the citing commission to determine the severity of yellow cards, I was not suggesting a full citing meeting merely an unemotional appraisal of the incident to determine whether it was a red card issue. It would make it easier for the on field officials Is this red or is it yellow???? Because the magins are unclear and open to interpretation.. I suggest you re-read my thread and consider it as suggestions for the betterment of the game .

dullonien · Oct 16, 2011

TNT88 said:
Referees are neutral, all those guys are perfectly capable of refereeing their own country in a test match without bias. They don't "go" for anyone. You need a bit of perspective. If you want better refs than Bryce Lawrence reffing a quarter final, then you should have let Joubert ref the game. He'd do a much better job... But NOOOO conspiracy theorists think he has a bias!

Also, in what parallel universe can citing commissions make a decision in 10 minutes? These things take anywhere from hours - to days. Try actually reading some judicial reports: http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/05/12/01/110920jodecision-dominikowaqaniburotu(fiji)10.4(j).pdf

Lastly, if you think people will stop complaining about referees when your new rules are brought in, keep dreaming... The same people who want these changes will continue to whinge like there is no tomorrow and proceed to propose more stupid rules to fix their new found non-issues with referees.

The argument being presented can basically be summed up as:

1. The refs are bias because I say so.
2. I will complain about it.
3. The IRB should implement new rules to give people like myself no reason to complain about referees.

That is a great summary there, agree completely. I don't think I've ever seen a biased ref. A poor ref, yes, not biased. People need to quit moaning, because it's quite frankly pathetic. There is no hidden agenda, Wales or Samoa didn't loose because of some big conspiracy theory, Nigel Owens and Rolland are perfectly capable of keeping any personal loyalties out of their decision making. They are reffing at the world cup for a reason, and that's because they are among the best ref's in the world, and if we want the best ref's to officiate the big matches, people can't sream and moan about bias after the match just because their team lost.

At least the Welsh players have more diginity. Shane Williams and Roberts were both gracious in defeat. I wish Gatland had kept his mouth shut, but there we go, that's what he does.

TNT88 · Oct 16, 2011

Well TNT88 you really don't appear to understand the argument. I did not say that refs are biassed I actually said they are human. The issue is that they must be seen to be free from bias and this isn't too hard to achieve.

I understand the argument fine. You want referees to "appear" free of bias to stop all the complaints. But the only people complaining (who think refs are out to favor their own country) hold completely irrational beliefs. The funniest part is how the people with silly beliefs are proposing these changes to stop themselves from complaining!!!

Judging whether an offence is a red card or not takes time, you need to check the laws, discuss the interpretation and also figure in any memo's from the IRB or competition involved. I also suggest you go and meet the kind of people who are appointed to these judiciaries, they argue over semantics and can't do anything in 10 minutes.

The only issue about "bias" is in people's heads. Hence why these changes don't need to be made.

You appear to believe everything his fine with the management of the game

Just because I oppose silly ideas doesn't mean I think everything is fine. I am all for improving refereeing standards, but making more silly restrictions on refereeing selections simply to stop ignorant people complaining does the complete opposite.

lucky number 7 · Oct 16, 2011

It was a red.

SelimNiai · Oct 16, 2011

dullonien said:
That is a great summary there, agree completely. I don't think I've ever seen a biased ref. A poor ref, yes, not biased. People need to quit moaning, because it's quite frankly pathetic. There is no hidden agenda, Wales or Samoa didn't loose because of some big conspiracy theory, Nigel Owens and Rolland are perfectly capable of keeping any personal loyalties out of their decision making. They are reffing at the world cup for a reason, and that's because they are among the best ref's in the world, and if we want the best ref's to officiate the big matches, people can't sream and moan about bias after the match just because their team lost.

At least the Welsh players have more diginity. Shane Williams and Roberts were both gracious in defeat. I wish Gatland had kept his mouth shut, but there we go, that's what he does.

Oh I dunno, Steve Lander seemed to really have a grudge against us (Bristol) :lol:

Saintjay · Oct 16, 2011

rugbyfisher said:
 <m:smallfrac m:val="off"> <m:dispdef> <m:lmargin m:val="0"> <m:rmargin m:val="0"> <m:defjc m:val="centerGroup"> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440"> <m:intlim m:val="subSup"> <m:narylim m:val="undOvr"> </m:narylim></m:intlim> </m:wrapindent> In the aftermath of yesterdayâ€™s semi-final perhaps it is time to reflect on the IRB management of match officials. I hope that the IRB will not take a defensive aloof position regarding criticism about mismanagement. For the future of the game the rugby public deserve better. I believe the IRB have employed a cavalier attitude in their selection of the match officials and have failed to properly apply appropriate neutrality measures. Their lack in this aspect does a disservice to the officials themselves and fuels the conspiracy theorists which spreads dissatisfaction amongst supporters. Perhaps it is time for them to utilise the Wales France semi final and the Sam Warburton incident to reflect upon their management and selection of match officials.

Taking the Wales and France game, the selection of Mr. ROLAND was madness as the dissatisfied may not only suggest that he have been aggrieved that Wales had knocked out his home country in the quarter final, but he is half French. This selection was undertaken when Mr. KAPLAN was running the line, a referee whose home country was out of the competition and as such would have been neutral to every observer.

The pressure the IRB have placed upon Mr ROLAND is sadly likely to remain with him for the rest of his career. This is grossly unfair as the Referees job is unenviable. Unfortunately, now for Mr. ROLAND whenever he officiates upon a Welsh or French match either on the International stage or within a European competition his every decision will come under the greatest scrutiny. Worse than that as a human being he is bound to be under internalised pressure.

Other examples of poor official selections within this World Cup exist:
1.the selection Bryce Lawrence (NZL) to officiate in the South African Australia quarter final when NZ were a probable future opponent. As it was Mr. LAWRENCE had an appalling game missing much that was in South African favour. A northern hemisphere ref would take all the sting out of the conspiracy theorists.. Or

2. the questionable decision to select French and Welsh touch judges in the NZ v Oz semi final when either Wales or France would have been the opponents in the final.

The rugby paying public need the IRB to ensure that the highest level of official integrity is maintained and that the pressure of allegations of bias is removed from those officiating. This could surely be easily achieved by a applying a simple foreseeability neutrality test, sounds complicated, but is so so simple and the lack of applying such an ethical policy will leave an unnecessary bad taste in what has been an excellent World cup.

To ensure that the rugby paying public do not feel aggrieved by perverse red card decisions, do on field officials need the red card sanction. To err is human and officials are no different. A perverse red card mistake means so much in this world of international rugby and is it required? Much pressure would be taken off match officials if they were simply to give a yellow card and allow the citation committee to utilise the ten minutes to determine whether the incident was deserving of a red card. This would surely allow for a fairer more consistent unbiased decision making process, protect those officiating and ultimately the enjoyment of the game being marred by poor spur of the moment
decision making.

</m:defjc></m:rmargin></m:lmargin></m:dispdef></m:smallfrac>

Prehaps the IRB memo guy will be saying "Yep job well done by the ref" He read my memo on dangerous tackles and got the call right. The IRB then looked at it and gave Warburton a 3 week ban because the decision was right. A further memo is sent to the ref and as in the Foster's ad's it reads "Good call".

TRF_Cymro · Oct 16, 2011

Any chance for Sam Owen to take a dig and be all high and mighty he will do so

Sam Owen · Oct 16, 2011

TRF_Cymro said:
Any chance for Sam Owen to take a dig and be all high and mighty he will do so

Haha not taking any dig of any sort and like I said before -no man above the crew, equality for all. Just discussing issues sensibly, thats what a forums for. I simply raised a concern that was brought up before and no-one really confirmed anything in the matter intill Olly was nice enough to do so. Thats all buddy.

Shaggy · Oct 16, 2011

I'm not sure how a referee can be accused of bias when he makes the correct call ... there's a lot of grey areas that are subject to different interpretations, but this type of tackle isn't one of them.

Rolland got the correct call in terms of the directive issued in 2009, where it states that the ref is to assume a red card first, and work their way back in how a player should be punished, and it also states that if you lift a player above the horizontal and then drop him (as Warburton did), a red card is recommended.

Just because other refs have ruled differently, does not make Rolland biased, incompetent, or wrong

Here's the link if you want to read for yourselves.

http://www.deepsouthrugbyunion.com/images/IRB_Memorandum_re_Dangerous_Tackles.pdf

... I think that rather than the IRB doing anything in the refereeing appointments, they should INSIST that the commentators/reporters etc, that buy the TV rights, complete a course each year on the rules of the game, and that these commentators are called to account for comments made that are incorrect.

This would go a long way to educating the general rugby public as to what the actual rules are 9not what they think they are), and thus remove a lot of this bias nonsense

Siva Tau · Oct 16, 2011

TRF_Olyy said:
It's not, that was just more BS spewed by Eliota.

Referees are/were picked by a board of a number of people, one of whom happened to be Welsh.

No not complete BS at all the Chair of the committee was Welsh RU Chairman.

I think Craig Joubert and recently retired Mark Lawrence interestingly both from SA are best in world.

Did Oz have any refs here ? Just cant remember any. Lots from North thought, why ?

TRF_Cymro · Oct 16, 2011

Siva Tau said:
No not complete BS at all the Chair of the committee was Welsh RU Chairman.

I think Craig Joubert and recently retired Mark Lawrence interestingly both from SA are best in world.

Did Oz have any refs here ? Just cant remember any. Lots from North thought, why ?

Wrong ... http://www.irb.com/aboutirb/organisation/structure/councilcommittees/committee=20000004/index.html

David Pickering is on the committee but is not the chair ... therefore not BS.

IRB mismanagement of the beautiful game.

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