Investec Champions Cup 23/24 - Rd 3

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Idk I don't see an English club beating Bordeaux at least away

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Idk I don't see an English club beating Bordeaux at least away

Light work

 

[Crash Hamster]

Let's see how our clubs get on towards the pointy end. I think there was some justification for that argument.

Saints and Bath are undoubtedly much better teams than they were and Chiefs are re-emerging which are all good.

Sometimes hard to tell with the Champions Cup with weakened teams etc. But on the evidence of this weekend:

Good, but narrow, home wins for Bath (excellent game) and Chiefs. Saints and Quins handed out so what drubbings to poor opposition. Bristol and Sale lost to Saffers while Sarries and Tigers were handed their backsides on French plates.

Some encouraging signs but I'm not breaking out the champagne just yet.

Totally agree though that successive coaching regimes haven't got the best out of the available players.

English clubs have done just fine in Europe; far better than Scottish clubs, yet who holds the Calcutta Cup? Yes, we currently can't compete with the best French or Irish teams, but on European form, top English clubs would slot into any foreign league without fear of relegation.

Top English players are holding their own (or better) at the highest level of non-international competition available to them.

I guess it's human nature to point to things out of your control as reasons for your lack of performance, but the 'English league is poor' argument seems to be a smokescreen for muddled selections and incomprehensible tactics.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

English clubs have done just fine in Europe; far better than Scottish clubs, yet who holds the Calcutta Cup? Yes, we currently can't compete with the best French or Irish teams, but on European form, top English clubs would slot into any foreign league without fear of relegation.

Top English players are holding their own (or better) at the highest level of non-international competition available to them.

I guess it's human nature to point to things out of your control as reasons for your lack of performance, but the 'English league is poor' argument seems to be a smokescreen for muddled selections and incomprehensible tactics.

I think this came from the perception of Quins, Bristol and Saints chucking it around with little real regard for defence plus there have been the likes of Worcs and Falcons who have seldom been competitive enough.

But there have been no English clubs in the last 3 European finals and since 2011 the only English finalists apart from the salary cap era Sarries were Chiefs with their 19 / 20 win. Some of this relates to structural issues like salary cap differentials but this is also a period where the national team have often been poor - maybe only a partial causation but when both clubs and country struggle on the bigger stages you have to look at all the factors.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I think this came from the perception of Quins, Bristol and Saints chucking it around with little real regard for defence plus there have been the likes of Worcs and Falcons who have seldom been competitive enough.

But there have been no English clubs in the last 3 European finals and since 2011 the only English finalists apart from the salary cap era Sarries were Chiefs with their 19 / 20 win. Some of this relates to structural issues like salary cap differentials but this is also a period where the national team have often been poor - maybe only a partial causation but when both clubs and country struggle on the bigger stages you have to look at all the factors.

I'm not sure you can discount Saracens' wins, just because they were cheating the salary cap; it was still the same side, whatever they were being paid. If, hypothetically, Saracens had played in the T14, their squad would (I guess) have been completely legal within the salary cap*. Including them, English teams have won half of the last 8 Champions' Cups. If the salary cap had remained optional, maybe Saracens would have won even more.

Leinster and La Rochelle have just been particularly good in the last few years; no disgrace in someone producing a better domestic side. Their international teams have done well too (though not at WCs.) Realistically, England should expect to be in the top half of the 6N, with the prospect of doing better if combinations of players who don't play in the same domestic side perform better than the domestic/international combinations of Ireland and France.

The 'defence optional' argument is flimsy too; I did spend some time looking at average points conceded in the Top14, Pro14 and Premiership; French sides conceded about 3 points per game less than the other two leagues, who were almost identical. Taking out the obvious whipping boys made little difference to the relative positions either. Obviously Northampton's success this season has been based around improved defence, but it's not as simple as the Prem having a 'gonna score 1 more than you' attitude.

England got to the semi finals of the WC with no idea how to attack a Tier 1 side whatsoever, which suggests that players developed in the 'porous' Premiership must be able to defend at international level. Yes it was often dire and desperate, but it just about worked.

* probably fail the JIFF regulations

 

[Arcturus]

In all honesty, I think Northampton are the best chance amongst the English sides, but I don't think it will be enough against Toulouse or Bordeaux

 

[Wasps92]

English clubs have done just fine in Europe; far better than Scottish clubs, yet who holds the Calcutta Cup? Yes, we currently can't compete with the best French or Irish teams, but on European form, top English clubs would slot into any foreign league without fear of relegation.

Top English players are holding their own (or better) at the highest level of non-international competition available to them.

I guess it's human nature to point to things out of your control as reasons for your lack of performance, but the 'English league is poor' argument seems to be a smokescreen for muddled selections and incomprehensible tactics.

Also if our players weren't good enough then the French wouldn't be trying to lure them all away. Zach Mercer was player of the year in the Top 14 yet Borthwick won't pick him. Jack Willis also seems to be highly regarded. Star studded Racing have seen enough of Henry Arundell to offer him a multi year deal.