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In Argentina: The working class hates Rugby

Just to add another bit on this, in both Rugby and Cricket the national team take precedence not just in the eyes of fans and players, the national team has the power in both sports (for example, central contracts in cricket). The RFU fund players transfers (Sam Burgess). Clubs have little or no say. In football it's the other way round...the clubs (some being worth multiple billions) have a large say on matters in regards to the national team/player availability.

To give one example in football of how much club takes priority over the national team, for fans of most of the big clubs, and how little they give a rats about England; Roy Hodgson was Liverpool manager (and was doing terribly) that Liverpool fans started a campaign to get rid and chanted during games; "Hodgson for England".

We dont have this tribal aspect in Ireland (plus have never won a thing) and will support the team and the players regardless of who they play for at club level.

Thanks for clarifying - that Rugby model, similar to the one I'm use to ... It's just my personal opinion, but I think from a players point of view, you'd want to represent your country over your club, every time, but, I guess, the temptation/lure of money off shore, has it's place too
 
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That's not very Gretzky of her...(...or maybe it is thinking about it).

Last weekend I took my German girlfriend to her first rugby game, and she found it great fun cheering for the Cheetah's overs the Hurricanes. I knew she was doing it to annoy me, but it totally worked...


Ha I know your pain. My German girlfriend has taken to supporting the Ospreys against my Cardiff Blues...

Do have a question for you Conrad. I watched a BBC3 program a few years ago talking about obesity, and it highlighted that in the meat heavy diet of Argentina, that the poorer classes had worse diets due to only having access to worse cuts of meat and vegetables being too expensive, therefore making the upper class much healthier than them. How true is this, and does it play a factor in the rugby scene?
 
Ha I know your pain. My German girlfriend has taken to supporting the Ospreys against my Cardiff Blues...

Do have a question for you Conrad. I watched a BBC3 program a few years ago talking about obesity, and it highlighted that in the meat heavy diet of Argentina, that the poorer classes had worse diets due to only having access to worse cuts of meat and vegetables being too expensive, therefore making the upper class much healthier than them. How true is this, and does it play a factor in the rugby scene?


Hmmmmm defiantly sounds like summit bbc 3 would put on.....
 
Fascinating post Conrad. But it doesn't really surprise me, as that seems to be the dynamic in most soccer mad countries...

To some extent though, there is a little bit of that same attitude between Rugby League and Rugby Union in NSW and Qld in Australia (in the other states it's just all Australian Rules Football, with pockets of support for games like league, union and soccer).

In Sydney and Brisbane rugby league is the game the working class guys played, while union was mostly a private school game until union went pro (it's now got equal representation in public schools). So there used to be a bit of ****le between League and Union, but it's not much anymore - it's generally more toward soccer.

Growing up soccer was the most derided of the sports though - if you played it, it was because you were a ****, a wimp or a girl. Now there's less of that, because people used to cop it big time if they played soccer, they all have a massive chip on their shoulder about it and have become the most insufferable group of sports fans in the country.

Funnily enough, when you said that soccer fans in Argentina hoped for the Pumas to lose I actually identified somewhat, as most League and Union fans I know actively hope the socceroos lose all their games, because here soccer is a sport for posers and ******s basically who think they're in a country like Argentina, but generally come from the middle class themselves. In a sense soccer in Australia is the game of choice for people who hate sport - it's like a protest vote.
 
Me thinks someone has a chip on their shoulder about football in Oz :D The Aussies are desperate for a World Cup in Oz (should have got it in 2022)..I'd have definitely planned to go to that one...likelihood for Oz is 2026 or 2030.

I have an Aussie friend in Melbourne who wouldn't concur with sanzars viewpoint (hates Rugby league btw), and follow two sports, Aussie Rules and football. Union he said is dead outside of the odd Wallaby match, but even that doesnt generate much interest. It was when he said this that i recalled the Lions tour last year after every single game the Aussie players would say to the crowd; "thanks for coming".."please come again"...shows how far the game has sunk when players are forced to do that.

My Aussie mate summed it up to me; Aussie rules is Melbourne, Rugby league is Sydney/Brisbane, while football, cricket and rugby union are nationwide. He said Union has been on its knees for some time. He also said that folk outside the Victoria region hate Aussie rules, outside Sydney/Brisbane corridor hate Rugby league. So although the likes of Union and cricket are public school (private school in Oz) games, he said its more that there is a parochial element to it...regional tribalism as opposed to class. There is some of this in the UK in regards to League (north) and Rugby U (south), although that's intertwined with class.
 
" In England, Rugby Union is largely the home counties (wealthy areas around London) and a smattering of the west country (Bath, Bristol). North of Watford it is almost non existent."

North of Watford? So Bedford, Northampton and Tigers are Non existent? Are you naturally clueless about Rugby in England.
 
The smattering of west country, I don't think saying Bath, Bristol, Glouscester, Exeter and Worcester is a smattering Rugby U is the prob biggest there.
 
You did not mention about you Basketball Team, which is more successful than football team since 2000s.
Argentina won Olympic Gold in 2004 (I remember their sensational win against Dream Team with Duncun, Lebron, Wade, Anthony, Iverson and etc.) and Bronze in 2008 (unlike Olympics in football, basketball Olympics is the most prestigious tournament on NT level).
Plus, Argentina was runner up in world cup 2002.
Truly amazing team, with Ginobily, Scola, Delfino, Nochioni and etc.

In Argentina, Basketball supporters also hate rugby. It's a bit strange here basketball is a small sport, however it isn't a sport hated by football supporters . I think the reason is that basketball players are peaceful guys, they don't seek fights. If a football supporter intersects a basketball supporter in the street and he says: "Football is better than basketball. Basketball players are *****es." The basketball supporter will remain silent without saying anything, they are peaceful people as their sport (In basketball there is no fouls).

While if a football supporter crosses a rugby supporter in the street and he says: "Football is the working class sport. The Pumas lose every game because they are *****es, rugby players are pussies".

The rugby supporter will not remain silent, he will insult and probably hit the football supporter. Remember, the rugby boys are stronger than football boys, our sport is much harder than football. They aren't used to hard knocks like we do. So if they fight in the street, a football supporter and a rugby supporter, there are 80% chances to win the rugby player because we are used to hard knocks.

Here basketball supporters say things like: "The Pumas are losers", "They lose all their games", "Rugby isn't a competitive sport as it is played in a few countries". "Australia, NZ and SA are the powers of these sports and these countries have no influence worldwide". and things like that. Nonsense they say. *****es play basketball because hard hits are prohibited in that sport.

Also, basketball isn't as great as they think. In USA the two most popular sports are american football and baseball. NFL and MLB are the most important leagues in the country, basketball is a minor sport like: NHL, Nascar and soccer.

Basketball is far from being the most popular sport in America. Baseball supporters in USA had a phrase: "Baseball is the favorite pastime of Americans." And NFL supporters say: "Baseball is the favorite American pastime but american football is the favorite sport of the Americans." This shows that the fight for the most popular sport in USA is between american football and baseball.
 
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You left out the keyword, *almost. Without the small pockets (Northampton, Leicester) I wouldn't have included the word 'almost'.

North of Watford is an expression. Outside the M25 (which Northampton is not far from) is more specific in geographic terms.

Home counties, west country, is Unions base. It's tenuous to start tagging on other regions.
 
in Argentina, Basketball supporters also hate rugby. It's a bit strange here basketball is a small sport, however it isn't a sport hated by football supporters . I think the reason is that basketball players are peaceful guys, they don't seek fights. If a football supporter intersects a basketball supporter in the street and he says: "Football is better than basketball. Basketball players are *****es." The basketball supporter will remain silent without saying anything, they are peaceful people as their sport (In basketball there is no fouls).

While if a football supporter crosses a rugby supporter in the street and he says: "Football is the working class sport. The Pumas lose every game because they are *****es, rugby players are pussies".

The rugby supporter will not remain silent, he will insult and probably hit the football supporter. Remember, the rugby boys are stronger than football boys, our sport is much harder than football. They aren't used to hard knocks like we do. So if they fight in the street, a football supporter and a rugby supporter, there are 80% chances to win the rugby player because we are used to hard knocks.

Here basketball supporters say things like: "The Pumas are losers", "They lose all their games", "Rugby isn't a competitive sport as it is played in a few countries". "Australia, NZ and SA are the powers of these sports and these countries have no influence worldwide". and things like that. Nonsense they say. *****es play basketball because hard hits are prohibited in that sport.
.

Conrad this is fascinating. I mentioned before I have got narky comments wearing a Rugby jersey while playing football (once called a p##fter which made me chuckle..also been called stereotypical upper class names "Timothy", "Bartholomew"), but it's not been as vitriolic as you mention in Argentina.
 
In New Zealand lacross and water polo players and supporters fear for their lives on a daily basis.

In 1986 thirteen members of the national Lacross team were brutally murdered by the general public who predominantly supported rugby. Many of the rugby supporters felt there was no room in society for a niche sport and so hated the lacrosse players. People claimed that Ernie Wessler (the captain of the mens Lacrosse team) would never be as good a player as Grant Fox - and therefore could bring only shame to his country. The New Zealand media did a good job of covering up the incident - however was heavily sanctioned by the FIL (Federation of International Lacrosse). To this day many New Zealander's felt the murders were justified as Lacrosse stood for the growing tensions between USA and NZ over New Zealand's nuclear free policy.

Even this incident pails in comparrison to the Water Polo massacre of 1992.

Upon surrounding the pool with guards armed with assult rifles - the live piranha were relased into the pool. All thirty six members of the Men's senior and U19 teams, training in the Petone Rec were attacked and viciously mauled, before the pool was fired upon. The UN decleared the incident the worst piranha-machine gun massacre to take place in a sporting capacity. The incident was investigated by the Department of Fisheries and Department of Conservation - both of which concluded the piranha were likely illegally smuggled into New Zealand and the perpertrators recieved fines in excess of $800 (NZD).
 
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You left out the keyword, *almost. Without the small pockets (Northampton, Leicester) I wouldn't have included the word 'almost'.

North of Watford is an expression. Outside the M25 (which Northampton is not far from) is more specific in geographic terms.

Home counties, west country, is Unions base. It's tenuous to start tagging on other regions.


Almost?. There are more teams playing between Watford and Doncaster than there are in the Home counties. 5 different leagues ( below National league 2) all playing 2 to 3 teams a week there is also the same number of teams in the West Midlands with places like Solihull and Handworth. West country is also a great deal more than a smattering of teams and the Borders in the base for the Scottish game not the East coast so please please get your facts right as it makes you look a bit foolish when you are trying to make a possibly valid point.
 
In New Zealand lacross and water polo players and supporters fear for their lives on a daily basis.

In 1986 thirteen members of the national Lacross team were brutally murdered by the general public who predominantly supported rugby. Many of the rugby supporters felt there was no room in society for a niche sport and so hated the lacrosse players. People claimed that Ernie Wessler (the captain of the mens Lacrosse team) would never be as good a player as Grant Fox - and therefore could bring only shame to his country. The New Zealand media did a good job of covering up the incident - however was heavily sanctioned by the FIL (Federation of International Lacrosse). To this day many New Zealander's felt the murders were justified as Lacrosse stood for the growing tensions between USA and NZ over New Zealand's nuclear free policy.

Even this incident pails in comparrison to the Water Polo massacre of 1992.

I actually started googling that.

:rolleyes:
 
You left out the keyword, *almost. Without the small pockets (Northampton, Leicester) I wouldn't have included the word 'almost'.

North of Watford is an expression. Outside the M25 (which Northampton is not far from) is more specific in geographic terms.

Home counties, west country, is Unions base. It's tenuous to start tagging on other regions.

"North of Watford" to mean "not Home Counties", sure; but "Outside the M25" just makes you sound a bit uninformed. Northampton might "not be far from" the M25 in pure distance - because let's face it, the country is hardly the size of Russia, lots of things are close by - but it is a very different place. In the East Mids as a region, rugby is big - maybe not quite to the scale of cities like Bath where it's the Number 1, but it's big throughout not just within little hot-spots.

While your general point is pretty reasonable, the geography is pretty iffy; almost the whole of the West Country is rugby territory and the East Midlands is definitely more than "small pockets".
 
Do have a question for you Conrad. I watched a BBC3 program a few years ago talking about obesity, and it highlighted that in the meat heavy diet of Argentina, that the poorer classes had worse diets due to only having access to worse cuts of meat and vegetables being too expensive, therefore making the upper class much healthier than them. How true is this, and does it play a factor in the rugby scene?

100% true, is what I said in the thread. Rugby is a much more demanding sport than football, then you need better nutrition for play rugby than for play football. Here there is too difference between social classes, the upper middle class have a better diet than the working class, then the kids from the upper middle class are stronger and healthier than kids from working class. For this reason, the best rugby players in Argentina come from the upper middle class, not from the working class, that's real.

Football supporters don't want to admit that this is true. They are ignorant and often don't realize that professional rugby players weigh over 100 kg with a low percentage of fat, while the best international football players are dwarfs than 60 kg like Messi or Neymar.

Here, Football supporters never played rugby then they think there isn't much difference in physical condition between a professional rugby player and a professional football player, when that isn't so. No professional football player weighs more than 100 kg, most weigh between 60 and 75 kg, if a professional football player weighs 90 kg is considered too heavy for football. While in rugby, most players should weigh more 100 kg, for example the forwards usually weigh over 110 kg and the backs weigh between 95-105 kg. So rugby is a sport that demands greater fitness and more nutrition than football.

In Argentina we don't have the genetics of other countries such as Jamaica. They are a poor country, however they have good performances in hard sports like athletics because they have good genetics. In rugby we have the case of Pacific Islanders: Samoa, Fiji and Tonga are small islands with few resources but they have very good genetics, so many "monsters" like Lomu and Tuilagi's brothers come from those islands.

Teenagers from Argentina's upper middle class:

140323042734493872.jpg



Teenager from Argentina's working class:

140323043033324136.jpg


Teenagers from the Argentina's upper middle class are stronger, they look like Europeans. While teens from the Argentina's working class are smaller, weaker. They couldn't play rugby, they only can play football.

Now do you understand the situation with regard to rugby in my country? It isn't a question of racial discrimination or something. It's just a reality, kids from the upper middle class are more suitable for rugby and the kids from working class are better suited for football.

Football supporters refuse to acknowledge this, they say that if the rugby was the sport of the working class here, Argentina would be better than NZ, Australia and SA together, but those are nonsense from people who have never played rugby. People who were never involved in a rucking, who never pushed into a mauling, who never experienced a spear tackle. They don't know all the pain you have to endure a rugby player.

Like a rugby coach I had said. "Rugby isn't painful if you watch it for TV. If you look from the stadium with the crowd, then it's three times more painful than through TV because you see the hits closely and if you're on the field of play, rugby is 10 times more painful than through TV". And he's right , football supporters think that rugby is a sport like handball, you just have to pass the ball and get to the ingoal. Foolishness, rugby is a tough sport.

Rugby = Blow after blow after blow after blow.
Rugby = Injury after injury after injury after injury.

And not many can withstand the harshness of our sport, especially football players.

Cheers
 
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100% true, is what I said in the thread. Rugby is a much more demanding sport than football, then you need better nutrition for play rugby than for play football. Here there is too difference between social classes, the upper middle class have a better diet than the working class, then the kids from the upper middle class are stronger and healthier than kids from working class. For this reason, the best rugby players in Argentina come from the upper middle class, not from the working class, that's real.

Football supporters don't want to admit that this is true. They are ignorant and often don't realize that professional rugby players weigh over 100 kg with a low percentage of fat, while the best international football players are dwarfs than 60 kg like Messi or Neymar.

Here, Football supporters never played rugby then they think there isn't much difference in physical condition between a professional rugby player and a professional football player, when that isn't so. No professional football player weighs more than 100 kg, most weigh between 60 and 75 kg, if a professional football player weighs 90 kg is considered too heavy for football. While in rugby, most players should weigh more 100 kg, for example the forwards usually weigh over 110 kg and the backs weigh between 95-105 kg. So rugby is a sport that demands greater fitness and more nutrition than football.

Hmm..when you say more demanding you mean in terms of taking hits/collisions hence a greater requirement for bulk. Football requires far greater endurance and being able to run at least 10k (with little stoppages) in 90 minutes, hence the body frame being leaner. Brian Moore (England rugby legend) would have been out of breath after 5 minutes playing football. Paul O'Connell can barely last 60 minutes half jogging in Rugby and with endless stoppages, he would pass out pretty quickly playing football. The extra weight is a drag. When Ronaldo piled on the pounds and resembled a Rugby player he was nowhere near the fitness level required to play football. There are varying aspects of fitness.
 
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Hmm..when you say more demanding you mean in terms of taking hits/collisions hence a greater requirement for bulk. Football requires far greater endurance and being able to run at least 10k (with little stoppages) in 90 minutes, hence the body frame being leaner. Brian Moore (England rugby legend) would have been out of breath after 5 minutes playing football. Paul O'Connell can barely last 60 minutes half jogging in Rugby and with endless stoppages, he would pass out pretty quickly playing football. The extra weight is a drag. When Ronaldo piled on the pounds and resembled a Rugby player he was nowhere near the fitness level required to play football. There are varying aspects of fitness.

Same could be said about any soccer player playing rugby though! Taking hits, giving hits etc... Takes more from a player than anything in soccer. Soccer players would score higher in a bleep test or something similar in comparison to rugby players but they wouldn't be physically capable of playing rugby as Conrad is pointing out!
 
Me thinks someone has a chip on their shoulder about football in Oz :D The Aussies are desperate for a World Cup in Oz (should have got it in 2022)..I'd have definitely planned to go to that one...likelihood for Oz is 2026 or 2030.

I have an Aussie friend in Melbourne who wouldn't concur with sanzars viewpoint (hates Rugby league btw), and follow two sports, Aussie Rules and football. Union he said is dead outside of the odd Wallaby match, but even that doesnt generate much interest. It was when he said this that i recalled the Lions tour last year after every single game the Aussie players would say to the crowd; "thanks for coming".."please come again"...shows how far the game has sunk when players are forced to do that.

My Aussie mate summed it up to me; Aussie rules is Melbourne, Rugby league is Sydney/Brisbane, while football, cricket and rugby union are nationwide. He said Union has been on its knees for some time. He also said that folk outside the Victoria region hate Aussie rules, outside Sydney/Brisbane corridor hate Rugby league. So although the likes of Union and cricket are public school (private school in Oz) games, he said its more that there is a parochial element to it...regional tribalism as opposed to class. There is some of this in the UK in regards to League (north) and Rugby U (south), although that's intertwined with class.

As I said, Australia is regional with its sporting tastes in a way on other country is, and Melbourne and Sydney are drastically different.

Soccer gets more traction down there because, frankly, the place is the most pretentiously European City in the country; there's a sort of hipster soccer loving class down there that think they're living in Paris and despise everything more genuinely Australian. And yes, they don't like league or union down there as they view it as the game of Sydney basically. You have the same dynamic for Sydney with afl.

Soccer has a minor national footprint that really isn't actually bigger than AFL if we're being honest. The A-League is played in summer, and there's a reason for that, because it's a late comer that has no history in Australia outside of bickering ethnic immigrant groups. It's now been taken up by the hipster class though, who think it makes them worldly and cultured.

As would be clear, I hate no other game like soccer, but it's a function of the Aussie soccer fan - they're the most pretentious tosses on the planet. American friends know what I'm talking about. Over there soccer falls under the joke banner of "what white people like" (white being code for middle class, pretentious and unaware). The slight difference here is these pretentious ******s also try and ape the thuggery and stupidity of their Euro counterparts and it's just too stupid for words.

as for union being on its knees. Yep, it's been awfully managed, and ironically the guy who did the most damage recently was the same guy who went over and saved the basket case that was soccer.
 
Hmm..when you say more demanding you mean in terms of taking hits/collisions hence a greater requirement for bulk. Football requires far greater endurance and being able to run at least 10k (with little stoppages) in 90 minutes, hence the body frame being leaner. Brian Moore (England rugby legend) would have been out of breath after 5 minutes playing football. Paul O'Connell can barely last 60 minutes half jogging in Rugby and with endless stoppages, he would pass out pretty quickly playing football. The extra weight is a drag. When Ronaldo piled on the pounds and resembled a Rugby player he was nowhere near the fitness level required to play football. There are varying aspects of fitness.

What makes you say that?
 
Hmm..when you say more demanding you mean in terms of taking hits/collisions hence a greater requirement for bulk. Football requires far greater endurance and being able to run at least 10k (with little stoppages) in 90 minutes, hence the body frame being leaner. Brian Moore (England rugby legend) would have been out of breath after 5 minutes playing football. Paul O'Connell can barely last 60 minutes half jogging in Rugby and with endless stoppages, he would pass out pretty quickly playing football. The extra weight is a drag. When Ronaldo piled on the pounds and resembled a Rugby player he was nowhere near the fitness level required to play football. There are varying aspects of fitness.

Many professional rugby players can run for 90 minutes, running distances of 10 km and of course can play football like: Dan Carter, Quade Cooper, Ben Smith, Leigh Halfpenny, Mike Brown, Patt Lambie, Owen Farrell, Digby Ioane, Cory Jane and many more. I would say that in general ALL backs can play football because they are all shape and some forwards too, especially the back rows, flankers like Michael Hooper or David Pocock can play football without problems.

However, the professional football players can't play rugby, none of them could. They are too weak, they would leave the rugby field in wheelchairs. They can't face our boys.

For this reason I say that rugby is a tougher sport that requires more fitness and better nutrition than football.

Ben Smith can play football, Neymar can't play rugby.
 
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