Ian Foster - Dead Man Walking

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

There shouldn't be personal hostility towards Foster. I've not heard him say anything unreasonable (like an Eddie Jones) and it's not his fault he was hired. It's a proper old pickle the union have manufactured for themselves.

His selection was an error
His contract extension was an error (having wracked up losses to all TRC teams in his short tenure)
Retaining him after the Ireland series was an error however...

Getting rid of the assistants was in theory a reasonable option and giving two games in South Africa as a last throw of the dice is also reasonable. Reports are they'll make a decision on Foster this week. To fire him in the same week as a win in the World Champs back yard will look laughable.

If they give him until the end of the TRC, he wins the next four games and they fire him it'll look absurd, even if they look unconvincing against Pumas and Wallabies sides that seem well below their historic bests. If they give him the EOYTs then you are pretty much too late to change coach.

A complete mess of their own creation. At this precise moment in time their least worst option seems to be to swallow their pride, fire him and accept looking like a laughing stock for the crazy timing.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

And why do they expect NZ Rugby to all of a sudden be so clear in communicating their expectations when they (NZR) are responsible for the entire fiasco in the first place? The premise for promoting from within was that it worked with Hansen and it gives you stability. Well, if that stability is actually mediocrity then it's not ideal is it? It's taken them 3 years to see that. We've seen good coaches get overlooked for the top job before but they usually lost out to equally good or better candidates. The gulf between Foster and Razor (which included other worthy candidates like Gatland) was plain for all to see.

Yeah exactly - that was their complaint really, the way nzr is handling this is poor.

The rationale for promoting from within btw isn't stability. It's being able to learn from mistakes, having the experience of not winning a World Cup. The same rationale for why henry got the job post 2007. It makes some sense , but made more sense with Henry because at least he had developed a team that was miles ahead of the rest.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

There shouldn't be personal hostility towards Foster. I've not heard him say anything unreasonable (like an Eddie Jones) and it's not his fault he was hired. It's a proper old pickle the union have manufactured for themselves.

His selection was an error
His contract extension was an error (having wracked up losses to all TRC teams in his short tenure)
Retaining him after the Ireland series was an error however...

Getting rid of the assistants was in theory a reasonable option and giving two games in South Africa as a last throw of the dice is also reasonable. Reports are they'll make a decision on Foster this week. To fire him in the same week as a win in the World Champs back yard will look laughable.

If they give him until the end of the TRC, he wins the next four games and they fire him it'll look absurd, even if they look unconvincing against Pumas and Wallabies sides that seem well below their historic bests. If they give him the EOYTs then you are pretty much too late to change coach.

A complete mess of their own creation. At this precise moment in time their least worst option seems to be to swallow their pride, fire him and accept looking like a laughing stock for the crazy timing.

My guess is that's what they'll do.

 

[mania]

yeah Foster stays till end of WC

 

[Frankie123]

They shouldn't let this one win stop them if they want to sack him. Because what happens if they back him and he loses to Argentina? If a coach is always one loss from being sacked, just rip the band aid off

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

They shouldn't let this one win stop them if they want to sack him. Because what happens if they back him and he loses to Argentina? If a coach is always one loss from being sacked, just rip the band aid off

Agree with this as you can always win when it's not deserved, rugby can be all about the bounce of the ball in some games.

It's just late to remove him this close to the WC. However much I want Eddie Jones gone who would come in this late and coach a tier 1 team to victory. Is there any other NZ coaches that would come in to the all blacks set up?

 

[GoTheNaki]

Rumour is he's still being moved on, and that was a good final game for his send off... Dunno.

 

[Frankie123]

Agree with this as you can always win when it's not deserved, rugby can be all about the bounce of the ball in some games.

It's just late to remove him this close to the WC. However much I want Eddie Jones gone who would come in this late and coach a tier 1 team to victory. Is there any other NZ coaches that would come in to the all blacks set up?

It's not too late, Rassie Erasmus just proved that

To be honest anyone would do. Chiefs don't want Gatland. Foster is a pretty low bar

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Foster has retained job, Schmidt is attack coach. Not too bad really, having Ryan and Schmidt driving forwards and attack. Defence is still iffy, especially against Ireland though so let's hope we face the springboks in the quarterfinal instead.

I'm a bit worried about some of these players burning out from the stress so hopefully we can rotate a bit.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I didn't know what the union would do, but I had a feeling they wouldn't pick Razor. These old boys clubs often prioritise justifying their existence by avoiding doing the blindingly obvious if it means hiring someone whose face doesn't fit, or someone who doesn't play the game of complete subservience to the union. It's that sort of sentiment that saw Foster picked in the first place. 'He is one of us'.

Schmidt is a good soldier who never says anything contentious and who defeated Ireland when Foster had to skip due to Covid. Razor's public remark about wanting to be an international coach (a perfectly reasonable sentiment) was likely unauthorised by the union and sealed his fate. He might never be the AB coach.

Overall, it's a decent manoeuvre by the union but it doesn't convince me we will see the ABs topping their RWC group or getting to the RWC semi. It's probably enough to win the RC though.

 

[Alex Anghel]

What an incredibly dreadful decision by the NZRU, that will certainly have many on and off the field implications...so although Foster lost 5 games out of the last 7 against Tier 1 opposition, he is retained based upon the team's last performance, which came under certain circumstances (i.e. Nienaber completely messing up the selections, especially in the front row).

On the field I am expecting that players will continue to be picked and played out of positions, that the best 7 and the best 8 won't play in those positions, that the best 15 won't play at 15 but on the wing, that the development of certain players/positions (i.e. at 8) will be held back, etc.

Off the field, NZ may lose Scott Robertson for another RWC cycle, because I fear he will either sign with an overseas team or the board will continue to use this completely inept "continuity" logic by sticking with Joe Schmidt.

I have been a huge fan of the All Blacks since mid 80s, but the current state of affairs is so underwhelming....like someone from the Stuff boards said, "the old guard resisting the change of the young guard yet again".

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I would be surprised if razor isn't the coach for the next World Cup. And to suggest nzr would care about the harmless comments he made is silly; razor is critical to the development of players and coaches in New Zealand, he will be incredibly valued by nzr. He has been very subservient to nzr.

But for now, good luck to foster and co.

 

[ChicagoKid]

What an incredibly dreadful decision by the NZRU, that will certainly have many on and off the field implications...so although Foster lost 5 games out of the last 7 against Tier 1 opposition, he is retained based upon the team's last performance, which came under certain circumstances (i.e. Nienaber completely messing up the selections, especially in the front row).

On the field I am expecting that players will continue to be picked and played out of positions, that the best 7 and the best 8 won't play in those positions, that the best 15 won't play at 15 but on the wing, that the development of certain players/positions (i.e. at 8) will be held back, etc.

Off the field, NZ may lose Scott Robertson for another RWC cycle, because I fear he will either sign with an overseas team or the board will continue to use this completely inept "continuity" logic by sticking with Joe Schmidt.

I have been a huge fan of the All Blacks since mid 80s, but the current state of affairs is so underwhelming....like someone from the Stuff boards said, "the old guard resisting the change of the young guard yet again".

I still haven't received an answer to how Rassie & Jac messed up the selections. If someone could explain it, logically and without emotion, I'd love to hear it.

Marx played the exact number of minutes as the 1st game. You could question Duane's inclusion, but he's proven. Dweba is the only hooker left outside Fourie. Same with Kriel.

So please Alex, tell me how they got the selections wrong?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Didn't Kriel go off after 8mins? Weird that people are focused on him tbh

Marx definitely should have started, he's by far the better player and it's always easier to hold a lead than chase one - yes he's fantastic off the bench, but I'd still want him starting (even if he does get the same amount of mind as sub instead of starter - this isn't a Bongi vs Marx selection where you've two top level players sharing the workload, it's taking a massive gamble on a guy not good enough and then shepherds crooking him early as a result)

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I would be surprised if razor isn't the coach for the next World Cup. And to suggest nzr would care about the harmless comments he made is silly; razor is critical to the development of players and coaches in New Zealand, he will be incredibly valued by nzr. He has been very subservient to nzr.

But for now, good luck to foster and co.

Robertson was presumably all those things and a 3x SR champion as coach when he was overlooked for Foster. He made it clear last month that if he isn't wanted by NZ for 2024 then he'll be going overseas. His remarks were harmless, but this part suggests he wasn't impressed by NZ's decision.

"Look, what I learned from last time, especially around the All Blacks stuff, is you have to keep your options open. It's a professional game and I'm probably a little more clearly focused.

It's one job [All Blacks coach] and when someone doesn't give it to you you have to think differently, what opportunities are out there? I'll be coming into my seventh year as the Crusaders coach next year, I have loved it all, it has been incredible but no one last in a job forever so I am open."

(my translation is: "I'm older now and understand decisions about your future can be out of your hands, even if you excel from day 1 and are clearly a better candidate than the person who was selected. So I need to put my destiny in my own hands incase I'm overlooked for an inferior candidate again next time as I'm not going to be kicking my heels with the Crusaders beyond 2023.")

To someone with thin skin who has an ego and enjoys a position of authority too much, the remarks and their timing could be taken as applying pressure on the union to at the very least give Robertson a commitment to 2024 (as well as a suggestion Robertson wasn't thrilled by the 2019 selection process). I don't know if the head of NZ rugby meets those criteria but loads of employers do, and will favour loyalty, familiarity and subservience over competence, even at the cost of success. It's an attitude that is rife in organisations with a strong hierarchical career progression. You don't pick someone who might not be 'on message'.

Only the ageing of Gatland and Cotter, the stress issues of Schmidt and the sub par performance of Rennie and Pivac is stopping me from thinking Robertson is pretty much out of contention for 2024. I think he'll be in contention for 2024, but behind Joseph (assuming Foster doesn't pull off a big upset next year).

You'll know more about the relationship between Robertson and NZ, but that's how it looks to an outsider. I think with Rennie I'd read that the NZ union had suggested they wanted coaches to coach overseas before they'd consider them (like a Hansen, which was a factor in why Rennie came to Glasgow). So that counts against Robertson (although this criteria was waived for Foster so who knows if it still applies).

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Robertson was presumably all those things and a 3x SR champion as coach when he was overlooked for Foster. He made it clear last month that if he isn't wanted by NZ for 2024 then he'll be going overseas. His remarks were harmless, but this part suggests he wasn't impressed by NZ's decision.

"Look, what I learned from last time, especially around the All Blacks stuff, is you have to keep your options open. It's a professional game and I'm probably a little more clearly focused.

It's one job [All Blacks coach] and when someone doesn't give it to you you have to think differently, what opportunities are out there? I'll be coming into my seventh year as the Crusaders coach next year, I have loved it all, it has been incredible but no one last in a job forever so I am open."

(my translation is: "I'm older now and understand decisions about your future can be out of your hands, even if you excel from day 1 and are clearly a better candidate than the person who was selected. So I need to put my destiny in my own hands incase I'm overlooked for an inferior candidate again next time as I'm not going to be kicking my heels with the Crusaders beyond 2023.")

To someone with thin skin who has an ego and enjoys a position of authority too much, the remarks and their timing could be taken as applying pressure on the union to at the very least give Robertson a commitment to 2024 (as well as a suggestion Robertson wasn't thrilled by the 2019 selection process). I don't know if the head of NZ rugby meets those criteria but loads of employers do, and will favour loyalty, familiarity and subservience over competence, even at the cost of success. It's an attitude that is rife in organisations with a strong hierarchical career progression. You don't pick someone who might not be 'on message'.

Only the ageing of Gatland and Cotter, the stress issues of Schmidt and the sub par performance of Rennie and Pivac is stopping me from thinking Robertson is pretty much out of contention for 2024. I think he'll be in contention for 2024, but behind Joseph (assuming Foster doesn't pull off a big upset next year).

You'll know more about the relationship between Robertson and NZ, but that's how it looks to an outsider. I think with Rennie I'd read that the NZ union had suggested they wanted coaches to coach overseas before they'd consider them (like a Hansen, which was a factor in why Rennie came to Glasgow). So that counts against Robertson (although this criteria was waived for Foster so who knows if it still applies).

I Agree that robertson thinks he's best for the job and is frustrated and unsure about whether he will get the job in the future. And ultimately you may be right if the egos in charge are indeed that fragile. It just seems unlikely to me given how innocuous his comments were and I also had a different take on the rationale for razor going public with those comments - he would have had a lot of pressure from media to say something in relation to whether foster should be fired. So he said something that sounded real but wasn't too anti nzr - respecting that it's not his decision and that actually he's ok with them not choosing him because he will just get a job elsewhere. I can't see what he could have said that is more subservient than that while maintaining his integrity. He didn't overtly say that nzr are wrong, he didn't even imply it by saying he is the best man for the job, but nor did he say nzr are right. While there would no doubt be underlying frustration, his words said that nzr decides these things, and that he's not bitter about it because he can also get a job elsewhere.

Robertson has a contract with nzr until the end of 2024 with an out clause if he doesn't get the all blacks gig. Which says something.

Also foster wasn't exempted from not having coached internationally; the requirement, if I remember rightly, they had was that the group as a whole included overseas experience and experience with international teams - foster had plumtree and feek for the former and himself for the latter. Robertson didn't have any of that; which isn't to say he ignored the requirements, it's just tiny brown who originally was in both coaches groups decided to withdraw last minute leaving foster and robertson scrambling for an attack coach. If brown had stayed robertson may well have got the gig.

 

[GoTheNaki]

There's a fair bit more faith with Schmidt seemingly taking a bigger role... But if we aren't starting our best players at their best positions vs Argentina and for the Bledisloe then wtf. I'd be looking to see what happens at the Hurricanes now, to see if Jordie Barrett changes to 12.

I really think we're LOCKED IN for our wingers(Clarke and Reece), we're absolutely ******* confused for our centres which should be Jordie and Ioane/Ennor, still lost on who our best fullback is... Should be either Jordan or McKenzie... Beauden Barrett should really be a super sub again at this point tbfh.

 

[miccloarch]

Also foster wasn't exempted from not having coached internationally; the requirement, if I remember rightly, they had was that the group as a whole included overseas experience and experience with international teams - foster had plumtree and feek for the former and himself for the latter. Robertson didn't have any of that; which isn't to say he ignored the requirements, it's just tiny brown who originally was in both coaches groups decided to withdraw last minute leaving foster and robertson scrambling for an attack coach. If brown had stayed robertson may well have got the gig.

Mate you keep repeating this NZR PR nonsense like it's true, it's total crap. Brown was on both tickets so they'd have just said "well Foster has more international experience than Razor." They never seriously considered Razor, it was always going to be Foster. It's a dumb bureaucratic process anyway. These freaking dinosaurs are ruining NZ rugby and some people are happy to just sit by and watch without criticizing them (unless their man Foster is thrown under the bus, no, then NZR is stupid).

 

[miccloarch]

Fozzie's re-re-appointment punctuates this new era of All Black mediocrity. Thinning talent pool, sinking AB brand, dodgy finances, NZRU run by a bunch of ninnies. Closer competition between the top 5 is good for rugby but it shouldn't have happened this way.

So all hail Ian Foster, the king of burgers. Apologists and neutrals know deep down that Razor would have done a better job. So be it. From now on after every All Black victory credit will go to the players, Jason Ryan, and Joe Schmidt (who all of a sudden has time for coaching, how about that). When they lose it's Fozzie's fault.

Razor will win the World Cup in 2027 with Wales and in 2031 with Japan.

 

[GoTheNaki]

Fozzie's re-re-appointment punctuates this new era of All Black mediocrity. Thinning talent pool, sinking AB brand, dodgy finances, NZRU run by a bunch of ninnies. Closer competition between the top 5 is good for rugby but it shouldn't have happened this way.

So all hail Ian Foster, the king of burgers. Apologists and neutrals know deep down that Razor would have done a better job. So be it. From now on after every All Black victory credit will go to the players, Jason Ryan, and Joe Schmidt (who all of a sudden has time for coaching, how about that). When they lose it's Fozzie's fault.

Razor will win the World Cup in 2027 with Wales and in 2031 with Japan.

I think the suggestion at a "Thinning talent pool" is HILARIOUS.