Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Tony Manx]

Looks like French dynamite doesn't have the effect it used to have...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-securing-a-deal-for-European-club-rugby.html

PRL have secured the backing of the home unions including the RFU. So that's the FFR now left on their own in the h-cup next season?

Interestingly, those who have commented on the article says it is cobblers and that it is dead in the water as no agreement has been reached with the Irish Union and that the deal with BT is non enfoceable as the new "governing body" with the power to commercialse the proposed new cup had no input into it? Also it ignores the offer of 2 million to the French clubs (accepted by Toulon and the "forward looking" Biarritz) to remain in H Cup and that the new competition is "against" French law?!

Who do you believe?!!!

 

[Prestwick]

Interestingly, those who have commented on the article says it is cobblers and that it is dead in the water as no agreement has been reached with the Irish Union and that the deal with BT is non enfoceable as the new "governing body" with the power to commercialse the proposed new cup had no input into it? Also it ignores the offer of 2 million to the French clubs (accepted by Toulon and the "forward looking" Biarritz) to remain in H Cup and that the new competition is "against" French law?!

Who do you believe?!!!

I'd rather believe the people involved in the negotiations rather than people trolling the comments threads of these articles or the FFR who so far have signed up basically the Rick Ross of rugby and a club who won't even be in the Top 14 next season the way they're playing.

The challenge I'd throw down to the Pro-ERC crowd who keep saying that the PRL/LNR plan is "dead" is this: write to the Celtic Unions and challenge them to dispute PRL's latest press release. Surely if the deal is dead then they'd be angrily denying that they're this close to a deal...right?

 

[Tony Manx]

I'd rather believe the people involved in the negotiations rather than people trolling the comments threads of these articles or the FFR who so far have signed up basically the Rick Ross of rugby and a club who won't even be in the Top 14 next season the way they're playing.

The challenge I'd throw down to the Pro-ERC crowd who keep saying that the PRL/LNR plan is "dead" is this: write to the Celtic Unions and challenge them to dispute PRL's latest press release. Surely if the deal is dead then they'd be angrily denying that they're this close to a deal...right?

That is just it, my friend, we do not know!! Who to believe............no one until it is irrefutable is my best thought!!

 

[Croket66]

Timisoara's chairman interview

(sorry, Google translate is bad)

-I have been in contact with representatives of international rugby, I exchanged a few e-mails at the moment, I can say that we have the support of the Romanian Rugby Federation, and Mr. Morariu FIRA-AER is president and we want wholeheartedly to participate in a European competition, next year remains to be seen whether current competitions format will be valid or not. There are discussions to disappear Challenge Cup and Heineken Cup and other competitions occur, but at the moment nobody knows anything for sure.

-If he enters the European Cups, Timisoara would be seen as being in competition with Bucharest Wolves?
I do not think I'd see it as a plus for both teams. "Wolves" could be a team to discover and develop talent at Romania and Timisoara, I see it as a team that could make performance in Amlin Cup that the world must understand, when that we do not have a challenge, a ceiling to reach us. We need strong teams, including foreign leagues to increase in value. And increasing new value automatically increases the value of Romanian rugby.

2013 Timisoara's squad :
1-3 : Sione Halilo (TON), Giorgi Khositashvili (GEO, 3 caps), Sami Maris (6 caps, ex-ProD2), Gigi Militaru, Horatiu Pungea (9 caps, Scarlets), Alex Tarus

2 : Otar Turashvili (10 caps), Otar Turashvili (6 caps), Marian Gorcioaia (1 cap)

4-5 : Valentin Poparlan (27 caps), Dorin Lazar (1 cap), Marian Drenceanu

6-7 : Bogdan Bradu, Stelian Burcea (36 caps), Randall Morrison (AFS, ex-MTM Lions), Vasile Rus (13 caps), Laurentiu Tanase

8 : Daniel Carpo (45 caps), Nemeki Nabalei (FIJ)

9 : Valentin Calafeteanu (55 caps), Bidzina Samkharadze (GEO, 60 caps)

10 : Jody Rose (AFS, ex-Lions, Af Sud U19), Jack Umaga (NZL, ex-Tasman Makos)

12-13 : Sosene Anesi (NZL, All Black, ex-Chiefs, Waratahs), Paula Kinikinilau (TON, ex-Otago), Florin Fantanaru, Johnny Sola (NZL), Sione Taupaki (TON), Ben Tuiatua (NZL)

11-14 : Madalin Lemnaru (21 caps), Viliami Moala (TON, int à 7), Stephen Shennan (NZL, ex NZ Warriors XIII), Fonovai Tangimana (TON), McGrath Van Wyk (NAM, 9 caps)

15 : Catalin Fercu (65 caps), Gabriel Conache (1 cap)

 

[Prestwick]

So...Camou's master plan is to have a Heineken cup made up of:

- Biarritz
- Connaght
- Leinster
- Munster
- Toulon
- Ulster
- ...Romania?

:blink:

 

[Tony Manx]

Sounds good to me........Blanco's dream of European victory really might come true!!

 

[Amiga500]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-securing-a-deal-for-European-club-rugby.html

PRL have secured the backing of the home unions including the RFU. So that's the FFR now left on their own in the h-cup next season?

are you serious?

The english media have not reported this affair with one ounce of credibility.

They've been so far up McCafferty's arse they can't see nothing but Wray, Craig etc.

There wasn't one word in any English paper (I've seen) of the FFR's meeting with all LNR clubs where serious moves to undermine the PRL/LNR RCC were afoot.




[I had a long reply for your earlier post on the BT bidding approach, but eventually didn't bother. You aren't going to recognise that large corporations have business units that are judged individually on their profit/loss and that BT are not going to continually throw heaps of money away on TV deals if they don't generate sufficient return on investment. Given that sky are already in the subscription+advert+internet TV market (unlike ITV or BBC who were advert or license fee funded), then they are in a much better position to judge the market value of competition rights - their bid was less than half BT's bid and they weren't willing to counterbid. If BT are going to loss-lead on bids to force other suppliers to exit the marketplace - then you can put down money on anti-competitive courts getting involved. Loss leading seeking eradication of competition is highly illegal.]

 

[ORothlain]

My reaction to this whole fiasco: http://youtu.be/FMHdlka9fvA

 

[Amiga500]

Two different journalists reporting on the issue.

Hard to believe its the same issue!

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-ritchie-european-tournament-rabodirect-pro12

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rug...eineken-cup-and-amlin-challenge-cup-1.1599260


A few points of note.

Gerry Thornley (Irish Times) talks about:
- a meeting this week between the unions (note, no RFU!).
- the FFR/LNR meeting last week.
- the FFR offering €2 million to each club to participate in the HEC and the possibility of centrally contracted French players if they don't.
- the French law prohibiting LNR starting a full rebellion.
- the IRB and unions not willing to compromise on governance.
- splits in the T14 clubs.
- ERC will honour their deal with Sky.


Paul Rees (Guardian) talks about:
- no meetings between the parties.
- avoiding governance issue.
- FFR obstructing the RCC.
- Only the RFU have seen the BT TV deal (maybe LNR have, not made clear).
- All offers to the Celtalians are conditional on acceptance by the unions that the clubs run the tournament.
- Welsh regions are meeting again to figure out if they made the right move.
- some scaremongering about the rugby apocalypse if RCC doesn't go ahead.


So common threads are:
- the FFR obstructing the RCC and going about it through various means.
- the governance issue is a massive problem in any negotiation right now.

Disjointed threads are:
- no meetings between parties/unions meeting this week

Unconnected threads:
- the rest



Who to believe? Well, Gerry Thornley is widely considered a tame journalist for the IRFU... oh and Rees didn't report Camou's ultimatum, which has now been widely reported elsewhere. That is either a massive oversight or a sign of prejudice.

 

[Prestwick]

• are you serious?

The english media have not reported this affair with one ounce of credibility.

They've been so far up McCafferty's arse they can't see nothing but Wray, Craig etc.

There wasn't one word in any English paper (I've seen) of the FFR's meeting with all LNR clubs where serious moves to undermine the PRL/LNR RCC were afoot.

A lot of what the English & Irish press is saying is rumour and speculation. I'm focusing on anything appearing as concrete information:

1) That McCafferty has said that everyone is on agreement on 90% of the issues.
2) That the home unions and ERC haven't denied this angrily like they have in the past.
3) That only two clubs have been mentioned signing up to Camou's plan: Biarritz and Toulon.

If you've got concrete proof that more LNR clubs are going to break ranks or a press release saying that the home unions/ERC/both disagree with McCafferty's statement then by all means. Post it. But at the moment simply trumpeting idle gossip from reporters on either side of the Irish sea as fact doesn't help your debating position.

[I had a long reply for your earlier post on the BT bidding approach, but eventually didn't bother. You aren't going to recognise that large corporations have business units that are judged individually on their profit/loss and that BT are not going to continually throw heaps of money away on TV deals if they don't generate sufficient return on investment. Given that sky are already in the subscription+advert+internet TV market (unlike ITV or BBC who were advert or license fee funded), then they are in a much better position to judge the market value of competition rights - their bid was less than half BT's bid and they weren't willing to counterbid. If BT are going to loss-lead on bids to force other suppliers to exit the marketplace - then you can put down money on anti-competitive courts getting involved. Loss leading seeking eradication of competition is highly illegal.]

Got how patronising can you get. Sheesh.

I get the concept of business units and their role within corporations as a whole. I work for one! I understand that they're judged on their performance but you need to understand that they're also judged on their use and value within the context of the wider business as a whole.

BT are investing in their television business because they're using it as a bulwark against the continued erosion of their broadband subscriber base. So far this year with two million BT sport subscribers, almost one million BT TV subscribers as a whole with record numbers over 130,000 broadband and 70,000 television signups a quarter with the loss of only 60,000 subscribers they're doing pretty damn well. You said BT need to spur rapid growth and its being delivered.

Look, I understand you need to push your line that the RCC is crap, the H-Cup is awesome as it is, ERC & Sky are great, PRL/LNR is the devil and BT are going to go bust within 18 months. I get that. You push inaccurate or out of date statistics and heresay to back your point of view. I get that. It seems I can lead you to the figures but I can't make you read them.

My view is simple: that everything would have been much simpler 18 months ago if ERC and the Unions had simply met with the clubs when they first complained and hammered out a solution instead of procrastinating and kicking the can down the road. PRL have been bombastic and hyperactive in their PR policy and should be rightly told to be quiet but its ERC not taking their concerns seriously thats caused this crisis.

 

[Tony Manx]

A lot of what the English & Irish press is saying is rumour and speculation. I'm focusing on anything appearing as concrete information:

1) That McCafferty has said that everyone is on agreement on 90% of the issues.
2) That the home unions and ERC haven't denied this angrily like they have in the past.
3) That only two clubs have been mentioned signing up to Camou's plan: Biarritz and Toulon.

If you've got concrete proof that more LNR clubs are going to break ranks or a press release saying that the home unions/ERC/both disagree with McCafferty's statement then by all means. Post it. But at the moment simply trumpeting idle gossip from reporters on either side of the Irish sea as fact doesn't help your debating position.



Got how patronising can you get. Sheesh.

I get the concept of business units and their role within corporations as a whole. I work for one! I understand that they're judged on their performance but you need to understand that they're also judged on their use and value within the context of the wider business as a whole.

BT are investing in their television business because they're using it as a bulwark against the continued erosion of their broadband subscriber base. So far this year with two million BT sport subscribers, almost one million BT TV subscribers as a whole with record numbers over 130,000 broadband and 70,000 television signups a quarter with the loss of only 60,000 subscribers they're doing pretty damn well. You said BT need to spur rapid growth and its being delivered.

Look, I understand you need to push your line that the RCC is crap, the H-Cup is awesome as it is, ERC & Sky are great, PRL/LNR is the devil and BT are going to go bust within 18 months. I get that. You push inaccurate or out of date statistics and heresay to back your point of view. I get that. It seems I can lead you to the figures but I can't make you read them.

My view is simple: that everything would have been much simpler 18 months ago if ERC and the Unions had simply met with the clubs when they first complained and hammered out a solution instead of procrastinating and kicking the can down the road. PRL have been bombastic and hyperactive in their PR policy and should be rightly told to be quiet but its ERC not taking their concerns seriously thats caused this crisis.

Button the right on.................put in any order!!

 

[Amiga500]

A lot of what the English & Irish press is saying is rumour and speculation. I'm focusing on anything appearing as concrete information:

1) That McCafferty has said ....

That speaks volumes... and effectively ends this discussion.

 

[Amiga500]

but you need to understand that they're also judged on their use and value within the context of the wider business as a whole.

And there was me wondering what "return on investment" meant.

BT are investing in their television business because they're using it as a bulwark against the continued erosion of their broadband subscriber base. So far this year with two million BT sport subscribers, almost one million BT TV subscribers as a whole with record numbers over 130,000 broadband and 70,000 television signups a quarter with the loss of only 60,000 subscribers they're doing pretty damn well. You said BT need to spur rapid growth and its being delivered.

The bit in italics is irrelevant to this issue; it doesn't indicate additional revenue generated via BT sport as it comes as standard to existing broadband customers.

The bit in bold is, of course, of importance. The performance is considerably better than BT's historical trend, but even then, the "rapid growth" you allude to is actually a net +70k subscribers (as you get tv with broadband one is the other.)

They'll need higher net numbers to make this work.


Once again - if they are loss leading to try and establish a monopoly position, its only a matter of time before they are hauled in front of the courts.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

My view is simple: that everything would have been much simpler 18 months ago if ERC and the Unions had simply met with the clubs when they first complained and hammered out a solution instead of procrastinating and kicking the can down the road.

This is where I disagree. All along this has been about a power play by PRL. Issues about qualification were merely a smokescreen for PRLs power grab.

 

[Tony Manx]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-next-seasons-Heineken-Cup-participation.html

..some people are on the pitch............they think it is all over...............well it is now........or is it another nothing article!!?

[h=1]French manoeuvre leaves English clubs isolated over next season's Heineken Cup participation[/h][h=2]FFR chief makes Top 14 an offer they probably can't refuse as only RFU is not invited to Dublin meeting to discuss next season's Heineken Cup[/h]Hopes of a resolution in the row over the future of European club rugby in time for next season appear to be over, with the protagonists seemingly resigned to rival tournaments taking place next year.

Representatives from the French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions are understood to be meeting in Dublin on Thursday to discuss plans to forge ahead with revised versions of the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup next season without the participation of the English clubs. Significantly, it is thought that the Rugby Football Union has not been invited.

The move comes following a commitment of French representation within the existing European Rugby Cup structure, by French Federation president Pierre Camou, despite the agreement between the Top 14 clubs and their English counterparts to create a new tournament.

Camou has reportedly warned the French clubs that no new accord with the French Federation over player release and television rights will be possible unless they withdraw their support for the new Rugby Champions' Cup.

Camou has also offered the French clubs €2million (£1.68million) each for participating in the ERC tournaments and reportedly set them a deadline of next month to confirm their support or he intends to explore other means of entering French teams through central contracting with the FFR.

[h=2]It is understood there is also a strong desire among the Celtic unions for the European tournaments to remain within union control rather than be run by commercially motivated clubs, despite the progress made at last month's summit over tournament structure and funding.[/h]

Privately there appears to be a reluctant acceptance that to maintain that governance principle for the best interests of the game in the long term, it may come at the short-term price of pushing ahead with a tournament without the support of the leading English clubs.
There is also a determination that the new Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups will honour the broadcasting deal with Sky Sports.
The English clubs, however, remain confident that the leading French clubs, as well as the Welsh regions, who declared their support for the Rugby Champions' Cup last month, will participate in the new tournament, to be broadcast by BT Sport.
Premiership Rugby is also prepared to legally challenge any move to block clubs from joining the Rugby Champions' Cup, a position it believes is likely to be strengthened if the respective unions did so while agreeing a new European accord to set up tournaments that would rival it.
The prospect of two effectively watered-down European tournaments next season would come as a bitter blow to rugby supporters as well as hamper preparations for the national sides in the build-up to the 2015 Rugby World Cup.
The quality of the existing Heineken Cup matches are seen by the respective national coaches as key proving grounds for preparing for Test matches while the fallout from a potential split is likely to tarnish rugby's image at a time when the RFU hopes that hosting the World Cup will take the game to a new audience.

 

[ratsapprentice]

All coming to a head then?


....finally.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'm sure if the ERC is maintained, there'll be a lot of whooping and hollering in Ireland especially that the bast@rd PRL have been defeated in their aim to control European rugby. However the following should come with a note of caution if it comes to pass:

Camou has also offered the French clubs €2million (£1.68million) each for participating in the ERC tournaments and reportedly set them a deadline of next month to confirm their support or he intends to explore other means of entering French teams through central contracting with the FFR.

Surely if the French clubs are guaranteed an additional €2million it strengthens their financial clout in comparison with the Pro 12 teams and will lead to a player exodus.

 

[Nielsch]

Well at least an English team is sure of winning the RCC if all their opposition comes from countries like Romania, Spain and Germany.

 

[Amiga500]

I'm sure if the ERC is maintained, there'll be a lot of whooping and hollering in Ireland especially that the bast@rd PRL have been defeated in their aim to control European rugby.

I'm meh with regards the ERC. Rename it to whatever you want.


However, it must be the unions running the show and not a bunch of potentially very dangerous businessmen that don't necessarily have the game's long term health as a concern never mind their overriding priority.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You mean the ERC?